Fresh stuff from sukhoi.ru (Discussion)

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

Is this what months and months of internet trolls has achieved?

They finaly talked enough people out of being online ww2 pilots with petty agendas and an all out 24/7 "CoD is broke dont buy it or its sequel campaign" that the last ww2 combat flight sim is going to be a morphed into a MMO:confused:

All the forum flyers who wanted dlc to rain err.. trickle from the sky get the granddaddy of it all, a one size fits all $15 dollor a month airquake.

Im %$#^%@# pissed:!:

[pupo162]

They finaly talked enough people out of being online ww2 pilots with petty agendas and an all out 24/7 "CoD is broke dont buy it or its sequel campaign"

Sure... blame the people who were right all along :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Kwiatek]

I really dont care MMO game for now. I just want Clod to be finished and bug free simulator.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Is this what months and months of internet trolls has achieved?

They finaly talked enough people out of being online ww2 pilots with petty agendas and an all out 24/7 "CoD is broke dont buy it or its sequel campaign" that the last ww2 combat flight sim is going to be a morphed into a MMO:confused:

All the forum flyers who wanted dlc to rain err.. trickle from the sky get the granddaddy of it all, a one size fits all $15 dollor a month airquake.

Im %$#^%@# pissed:!:
Well the only thing we know for sure is that whinnig 24/7 that cod is broke and dont buy it or the sequel didn't help the state of cod and would only help push the them into the MMO direction

[Bloblast]

I really dont care MMO game for now. I just want Clod to be finished and bug free simulator.

Yes agree really hope for developed Clod and BoM.
I do not think multiplayer is the future for realistic WWII a/c sim. But that is my idea.

[Insuber]

Is this what months and months of internet trolls has achieved?

They finaly talked enough people out of being online ww2 pilots with petty agendas and an all out 24/7 "CoD is broke dont buy it or its sequel campaign" that the last ww2 combat flight sim is going to be a morphed into a MMO:confused:

All the forum flyers get the granddaddy of it all, a one size fits all $15 dollor a month airquake.


I thought the same, mate. Ppl saying "don't buy the sequel CoD is broken" thought they were very clever, and what they obtained is the end of the Il2 series as we know it. As the saying goes, they cut their own male tool to make their wife upset.

Encouraging the devs was free, bashing them resulted in a monthly fee for everybody.

[Force10]

Well the only thing we know for sure is that whinnig 24/7 that cod is broke and dont buy it or the sequel didn't help the state of cod and would only help push the them into the MMO direction


Yeah....it has nothing to do with the fact that COD is broken at all. Or that the release that all the review sites received was an embarrassment to the flight sim genre and forced all the major reviewers to totally pan the game. Nope...it's because people disagreed with Ace that the game should be serviceable more than a year after release...yeah...yeah...that's it.

[addman]

That's it boys! keep venting your disappointment and frustration by taking it out on others. This is going to be awesome http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t151/204950/popcorn.gif

[Flanker35M]

S!

I would still wait for the OFFICIAL announcement before jumping into any conclusions, which seems to be the case already. :rolleyes: My bet is that IL-2 series will continue as it's own branch like it has done for the last 10+ years and this MMO, or whatever you want to call it, is just another branch to the IL-2 franchise. Until anything solid is shown I will for sure enjoy IL-2 series until something better will emerge, which I doubt will happen any time soon.

[Insuber]

Yeah....it has nothing to do with the fact that COD is broken at all. Or that the release that all the review sites received was an embarrassment to the flight sim genre and forced all the major reviewers to totally pan the game. Nope...it's because people disagreed with Ace that the game should be serviceable more than a year after release...yeah...yeah...that's it.

For once in a lifetime I agree with AoA, maybe I will even delete him from my ignore list. The fact that CoD was broken at release is an obvious fact, but today it is very playable for the majority of ppl. Yet many continued to bash it and produce tons of negative publicity. And the "I won't buy the sequel" tantrum probably had some influence in the MMO decision.
My opinion.

[Force10]

For once in a lifetime I agree with AoA, maybe I will even delete him from my ignore list. The fact that CoD was broken at release is an obvious fact, but today it is very playable for the majority of ppl. Yet many continued to bash it and produce tons of negative publicity. And the "I won't buy the sequel" tantrum probably had some influence in the MMO decision.
My opinion.

Or it could be that the devs just don't have the coding chops to actually fix this mess. They have had a year and it really isn't that much better than when they started. Maybe they can better code an arcade type cash cow instead.

[Insuber]

S!

I would still wait for the OFFICIAL announcement before jumping into any conclusions, which seems to be the case already. :rolleyes: My bet is that IL-2 series will continue as it's own branch like it has done for the last 10+ years and this MMO, or whatever you want to call it, is just another branch to the IL-2 franchise. Until anything solid is shown I will for sure enjoy IL-2 series until something better will emerge, which I doubt will happen any time soon.


I would like to share your optimism, but probably the dev team is too small to develop 2 parallel but different products.

[Ataros]

Some MMOs allow flying custom missions in a separate room using aircraft which you already opened in main arena. Hope it will be possible in this sequel too.

[addman]

S!

I would still wait for the OFFICIAL announcement before jumping into any conclusions, which seems to be the case already. :rolleyes: My bet is that IL-2 series will continue as it's own branch like it has done for the last 10+ years and this MMO, or whatever you want to call it, is just another branch to the IL-2 franchise. Until anything solid is shown I will for sure enjoy IL-2 series until something better will emerge, which I doubt will happen any time soon.

Words from the wise, I tried to say the same thing in an earlier post but it seems mass-hysteria has already set in.

P.S As Flanker35M mentions below, a company's long term business decisions are not determined by a couple of hundred raving forum members. I doubt CoD would've been a million seller even if everybody was singing "praise the lord, CoD!" all day long here. Geez, what planet are you guys from anyway?:rolleyes:

[Flanker35M]

S!

Banana forum rantings have nothing to do with MMO orientation IMO. A bunch of fans loud mouthing on an interenet site does not control what a company will plan or do. Like some say at work: a sergeant should not take the worries of a general.

[Insuber]

Words from the wise, I tried to say the same thing in an earlier post but it seems mass-hysteria has already set in.

P.S As Flanker35M mentions below, a company's long term business decisions are not determined by a couple of hundred raving forum members. I doubt CoD would've been a million seller even if everybody was singing "praise the lord, CoD!" all day long here. Geez, what planet are you guys from anyway?:rolleyes:

As far as I know and practice everyday, company business decisions are very often determined by customers' feedbacks, opinion polls, marketing intelligence. This forum is a window on CoD's customer base, don't you think that a prudent management would take into account those 200 forum members orientation when deciding where to put their bets? I would do so, at any rate.

Cheers!

[Force10]

As far as I know and practice everyday, company business decisions are very often determined by customers' feedbacks, opinion polls, marketing intelligence. This forum is a window on CoD's customer base, don't you think that a prudent management would take into account those 200 forum members orientation when deciding where to put their bets? I would do so, at any rate.

Cheers!

I would wager the decision would come primarily from the popularity of other MMO's lately. I can't remember one post at this forum asking for a more dumbed down, arcade MMO experience. COD is supposed to support 128 player online battles....isn't that a form of a MMO?

[ATAG_Bliss]

As far as I know and practice everyday, company business decisions are very often determined by customers' feedbacks, opinion polls, marketing intelligence. This forum is a window on CoD's customer base, don't you think that a prudent management would take into account those 200 forum members orientation when deciding where to put their bets? I would do so, at any rate.

Cheers!

Yeah - that's usually how most businesses run. Without their customers they don't really have much of a business. And obviously without a good product they don't really have much of a customer base.

[addman]

As far as I know and practice everyday, company business decisions are very often determined by customers' feedbacks, opinion polls, marketing intelligence. This forum is a window on CoD's customer base, don't you think that a prudent management would take into account those 200 forum members orientation when deciding where to put their bets? I would do so, at any rate.

Cheers!

If I wanted to make more money I would see what the competition was doing and use their winning recipe spiced with something better of my own and something that the competition isn't doing, in this case CoD has and edge in FM/DM and many other areas. Now add a pinch of MMO and BOOM! you have a deeper and more realistic MMO than the competition. People will get bored quickly of World of Warplanes and start looking for a deeper experience, IL-2 MMO takes them in with open arms = $/€

The big wigs don't care about some forum members, lol! you have very high thoughts about the importance of the keyboard warriors around here. They look at numbers and how to improve numbers, not about cater to a small group of elitist simmers.:-)

P.S Won't post anything more in here until there is an official statement.

[Force10]

If I wanted to make more money I would see what the competition was doing and use their winning recipe spiced with something better of my own and something that the competition isn't doing, in this case CoD has and edge in FM/DM and many other areas. Now add a pinch of MMO and BOOM! you have a deeper and more realistic MMO than the competition. People will get bored quickly of World of Warplanes and start looking for a deeper experience, IL-2 MMO takes them in with open arms = $/€

The big wigs don't care about some forum members, lol! you have very high thoughts about the importance of the keyboard warriors around here. They look at numbers and how to improve numbers, not about cater to a small group of elitist simmers.:-)

P.S Won't post anything more in here until there is an official statement.

I would agree that the customers that bought COD are, and have been, something that hasn't concerned them much.

[SiThSpAwN]

Some MMOs allow flying custom missions in a separate room using aircraft which you already opened in main arena. Hope it will be possible in this sequel too.


I believe War Thunder i going to allow this.... so I dont see why we couldnt see something like this. But all just guessing till official word.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Pure gold

Those who once said how important it is that thier (negative) voice be heard here in the forum are now trying to play down the idea that thier (negative) voice 'was' heard and may have drove the 1C bean counters down the MMO path

Last time I saw a someone back peddle that fast they got thier pant leg caught in the chain and fell over! ;)

[MadBlaster]

at present, the hardware requirements of the game seem in conflict/barrier to entry with mmo. unless, they build the game to accomodate one cheap solution that allows for headtracking and multi-profile controls. if all users were to use the same or compatible hardware available to them, I think this could be done. something like freetrack capability could be built into the game to accomodate generic webcam. Also, all the controls necessary to fly the plane could be downloaded from the server to the user. Everyone flies with certian cheap but decent joystick (e.g., thrustmater 16000 designated official game status) and a generic form gamepad or two( e.g., logitech). the player logs on and selects a plane. the profile gets loaded to the client and bam, your good to go. all cheap and easy. keep full real flight models. that makes the game good. leave out arcade stuff. if players want to play mmo with different/better quality hardware, they could request and if demand is enough, the developer would provide it as and add on at a price to cover additional development time/costs. the idea is to get a lot of people on board without sacrificing realism and keeping it cost effective for the user.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

For once in a lifetime I agree with AoA, maybe I will even delete him from my ignore list.
Better late than never! ;)

[Force10]

Pure gold

Those who once said how important it is that thier (negative) voice be heard here in the forum are now trying to play down the idea that thier (negative) voice 'was' heard and may have drove the 1C bean counters down the MMO path

Last time I saw a someone back peddle that fast they got thier pant leg caught in the chain and fell over! ;)

I don't see what you would be upset about Ace...it was folks like you and Robtek that were always spewing that faithful " I have over 500 hours playing, I got more than my money's worth out of it". It's crap like that that did more damage than any negative posts. Since you got your money's worth, I'm guessing you were looking forward to their next effort.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I don't see what you would be upset about Ace...it was folks like you and Robtek that were always spewing that faithful " I have over 500 hours playing, I got more than my money's worth out of it". It's crap like that that did more damage than any negative posts. Since you got your money's worth, I'm guessing you were looking forward to their next effort.
Who said I was upset?

I just made note of all the chain oil on your pant leg! ;)

[Drum_tastic]

Why don't y'all just listen to what the man says when he posts his news and take it from there.

just a lot of useless jibber jabber

[Force10]

Who said I was upset?

I just made note of all the chain oil on your pant leg! ;)

How am I backpeddling exactly? COD was a turkey at release, still is a year later, and people have been predicting it would never be fixed. You kept assuring folks that they were crazy and didn't know what they were talking about. (put a rubber band around your pantleg, that sprocket can put holes in it....much like the holes in your analogy)

[SiThSpAwN]

Why don't y'all just listen to what the man says when he posts his news and take it from there.

just a lot of useless jibber jabber

This forums foundation is built upon useless jibber jabber... why stop now ;)

[Luftwaffepilot]

another company going down the toilet.

Hopefully ArmA III won't do the same.

[SiThSpAwN]

another company going down the toilet.

Hopefully ArmA III won't do the same.

Until we get details of what they plan to do and how they plan to do it, all this is just silly, after all they were building their tanks in the current game engine, whats not to say they arent going to try and pull of a MMO of Simulation proportions...

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Until we get details of what they plan to do and how they plan to do it, all this is just silly, after all they were building their tanks in the current game engine, whats not to say they arent going to try and pull of a MMO of Simulation proportions...+1

[Luftwaffepilot]

Until we get details of what they plan to do and how they plan to do it, all this is just silly, after all they were building their tanks in the current game engine, whats not to say they arent going to try and pull of a MMO of Simulation proportions...

Well, I wasn't as utterly optimistic as others in the past and I was right. And I don't see why it is going to be different this time.

[SlipBall]

I hope this is some sort of sick joke. If this proposed MMO is the basis for the upcoming sequels to IL2COD etc., then that's all she wrote. There's no way I'm playing a flight sim MMO where the company controls the servers, missions, players etc etc etc. This is the worst possible thing that could ever happen (if this is tied to the same series we have right now).

I hope B6 can chime in and say this is a completely different standalone game that has nothing to do with the SOW/BOB/CLOD series other than sharing the broken game engine.

Looks like all the hardcore WWII guys will be stuck with 1946. That business model sold 1,000,000's of copies. Heck, just refresh the graphics in 46 and everyone would buy it all again. Leave it in open GL or w/e. But MMO = no way from me.


Would be nice for the best of two worlds. I too am hoping for two separate stand alone's as the optimum. I was hoping Clod would visit other theaters after BOM...not much to add till the details emerge I guess.

[SiThSpAwN]

Well, I wasn't as utterly optimistic as others in the past and I was right. And I don't see why it is going to be different this time.

I dunno, I guess my feeling on it is this, if they dont make COD a good game for the masses, then trying to sell something, ANYTHING else under the same name will end up losing money. It would be business suicide. On that note, they are a business and they have to show that they have a future, future development is that. We have about 12 pieces from a 10000 piece puzzle... why are you trying to guess what it is until you have more of the pieces.

[Dano]

<sarcasm>Nice to see people not jumping to conclusions for once...</sarcasm>

[Luftwaffepilot]

I dunno, I guess my feeling on it is this, if they dont make COD a good game for the masses, then trying to sell something, ANYTHING else under the same name will end up losing money. It would be business suicide. On that note, they are a business and they have to show that they have a future, future development is that. We have about 12 pieces from a 10000 piece puzzle... why are you trying to guess what it is until you have more of the pieces.

Guess what ... Their last puzzle was released without important pieces and with pieces that are not done properly and there's no sight of a finished puzzle on the horizon and that they are switching over to teddy bears now doesn't help the state of this puzzle either.

[SiThSpAwN]

Guess what ... Their last puzzle was released without important pieces and with pieces that are not done properly and there's no sight of a finished puzzle on the horizon and that they are switching over to teddy bears now doesn't help the state of this puzzle either.

Guess you didnt read all my last post... either way it doesnt matter. We dont know their plans, all we know is they said they would fix COD before they released anything further... if they dont hold that promise, I dont see this company lasting very long. Guessing, whining and crying wont do anything to help either in a positive or negative light...

[Luftwaffepilot]

they said they would fix COD before they released anything further... if they dont hold that promise, I dont see this company lasting very long.

Agree 100%

[Jugdriver]

My bet is on two separate game development streams, one pure flight sim, other MMO based on the COD engine.

Why limit your product offering, you just alienate customers?

JD
AKA_MattE

[ATAG_MajorBorris]

Yeah....it has nothing to do with the fact that COD is broken at all. Or that the release that all the review sites received was an embarrassment to the flight sim genre and forced all the major reviewers to totally pan the game. Nope...it's because people disagreed with Ace that the game should be serviceable more than a year after release...yeah...yeah...that's it.

First of all Force10, CoD isn’t broke, it never was.

Rise of Flight had to weather the same crap from reviewers we have never flown with sporting outdated hardware and forum flyers hell bent on its demise.

After almost 2 years it came in to its own despite the haters.

CoD, like any other combat flight sim early in development had/has and will continue to have bugs as well as needed optimizations.

Now for the combat flight sim history lesson...

Il2 in 2001 did not have contemporary hardware at the time that was able to max the sim and il2 circa 2001 sported fps in the 20s on a $2k pc at release.

That’s because it was designed with future hardware in mind (sound familiar?).

What was different for Il2 in 2001 was a direct competitor with huge pockets that it obviously was superior to (Microsoft’s cfs2/ and later cfs3)

What Il2 had in 2001 was a bucket full of bugs and potential, what it did not have was a "IL2 is broke fan club"

[Force10]

First of all Force10, CoD isn’t broke, it never was.

Rise of Flight had to weather the same crap from reviewers we have never flown with sporting outdated hardware and forum flyers hell bent on its demise.

After almost 2 years it came in to its own despite the haters.

CoD, like any other combat flight sim early in development had/has and will continue to have bugs as well as needed optimizations.

Now for the combat flight sim history lesson...

Il2 in 2001 did not have contemporary hardware at the time that was able to max the sim and il2 circa 2001 sported fps in the 20s on a $2k pc at release.

That’s because it was designed with future hardware in mind (sound familiar?).

What was different for Il2 in 2001 was a direct competitor with huge pockets that it obviously was superior to (Microsoft’s cfs2/ and later cfs3)

What Il2 had in 2001 was a bucket full of bugs and potential, what it did not have was a "IL2 is broke fan club"

Your lessons are...ummm...wrong

Average score for IL-2 in 2001 = 9.2 It had bugs but it was a solid offering. I will be the first to agree that steep system requirements arent the devs fault or problem.

COD has way more issues to worry about than steep requirements and just a few bugs. It runs smooth on my machine but the AI,FM,DM, radio commands blah blah blah make it unplayable.


Did you say "early in developement"? 8 years is early in developement? MUWAHAHAHA! That was a good one...side splitter for sure.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

First of all Force10, CoD isn’t broke, it never was.

Rise of Flight had to weather the same crap from reviewers we have never flown with sporting outdated hardware and forum flyers hell bent on its demise.

After almost 2 years it came in to its own despite the haters.

CoD, like any other combat flight sim early in development had/has and will continue to have bugs as well as needed optimizations.

Now for the combat flight sim history lesson...

Il2 in 2001 did not have contemporary hardware at the time that was able to max the sim and il2 circa 2001 sported fps in the 20s on a $2k pc at release.

That’s because it was designed with future hardware in mind (sound familiar?).

What was different for Il2 in 2001 was a direct competitor with huge pockets that it obviously was superior to (Microsoft’s cfs2/ and later cfs3)

What Il2 had in 2001 was a bucket full of bugs and potential, what it did not have was a "IL2 is broke fan club"
+1

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Did you say "early in developement"? 8 years is early in developement? MUWAHAHAHA! That was a good one...side splitter for sure.
What you and your convently forget is that during that so called 8 years of CoD developement 1C was also working on IL2 sequals and patches..

Which means the CoD development was NOT a 100% effort.

In software circles, that I work in/with, we are allways working on the next thing while we are working on the current thing.

But not until we switch to the next thing are we able to devote 100% effort to it

SAVVY?

[Feathered_IV]

At least we know for certain why they are so hot to implement DX9.
I doubt that the sort of people who were making this decision would have given any thought to the 40-50 vitriol fuelled regulars here. If they wanted some real market research they'd more likely approach the three million odd WoT players and ask them if they'd like an Il-2 MMO...

Anyway, all their plans will need to hinge on them fixing the Clod engine and optimizing the crap out of it.

[SEE]

Hey guys, I only have 1946 and CloD with no experience of other games so what exactly is MMO? It seems to have caused some concerns that I do not understand, could someone please explain.

[Jugdriver]

Massive Multiplayer Online

Lots of people playing on a single server (there would be more than one server) that you pay a monthly fee to access.

JD
AKA_MattE

[JG52Krupi]

Also, they normally suffer a quick demise. There are very few that have lasted longer than two/three years :(

[5./JG27.Farber]

Also, they normally suffer a quick demise. There are very few that have lasted longer than two/three years :(

Except the dreaded World of warcraft... Imagine games are a drug. To us, Il2 is like a wine or whatever you find stimulating. WoW is Crystal meth... With the stigma of the the people use it and all...

[SEE]

Thanks Jugdriver, I understand some of the posts now....:grin:

I personally wouldn't be interested in any MMO gaming title but I guess it is more profitable and returns a consistent cashflow if it has a large user base.

[Jugdriver]

To us, Il2 is like a wine or whatever you find stimulating. WoW is Crystal meth... With the stigma of the the people use it and all...

I about fell off of my chair....

But that is the point isnt it? If I can get you to fork over 10-20 $,£,€,¥, every month and you can’t stop.. Business gold! selling crack (or crystal meth, whatever you are into) online and it is legal!

JD
AKA_MattE

[Ctrl E]

Dear developers. Please fix the game i paid for and spent much money upgrading my computer for before rushing off to other nonsense.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Paid subscription to a MMO is a path that doesn't interest me.

Even though I spend most of my fying time online (ATAG mostly) I find that my simming is limited to a single sortie here or there when I get some free time. I don't have the time to devote to an organised squadron, nor do I feel I have the skill level required to make me attractive for a squadron to take on.

In a MMO where high scores are life and everything, I guess you'ld find squadrons of Mr X's (this isn't a slur, he is a force to be reconned with) dominating servers and all the would-be's base camping and making a new art of vulching to get those ep's up.

How many new players would you gain if their learning process involves getting shot on the runway five times out of ten. Lets face it, how many gamers would want to do a 20 hour training course before they get in their plane?

I doubt this would help simulate how combat worked.

The last thing I wan't to use my hard earns is to go into a virtual world where You get vulched every time you step into the cockpit. Hey in real life before you got into the plane you would know when the base was under attack. From the safety of the slit trench you could access the situation and make the desicion of when to risk it.

Anyway until an official announcement this is all just speculation. You never know, it might just be the way to end my COD addiction! :)

Cheers!

[Force10]

Dear developers. Please fix the game i paid for and spent much money upgrading my computer for before rushing off to other nonsense.

Whoa there Johnny entitlement-pants....sorry, your money has already been allocated for our next venture "Quake of Dover". If you have a problem with that, please speak to our Customer Service Specialist, his name is Ace of Aces and his office in the cellar. If you hear screaming you know your in the right place.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

You know how you can tell when your getting under someones skin? See above! ;)

[Force10]

You know how you can tell when your getting under someones skin? See above! ;)

lol....I had fun writing that one Ace. I realize getting under peoples skin or getting them banned is what gets you excreting fluids from your body with joy, so I wouldn't want to take that away from you. Since you don't ever fly the game you illedgedly love so much, what else are you gonna do?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

lol....I had fun writing that one Ace. I realize getting under peoples skin or getting them banned is what gets you excreting fluids from your body with joy, so I wouldn't want to take that away from you. Since you don't ever fly the game you illedgedly love so much, what else are you gonna do?
Sure.. sure.. sure..

But tell me, what was it that I said that upset you so much?

Was it me taking the wind out of your CoD development time sail?

When I pointing out that most of that so called 8+ year CoD development time took place, in parallel, with 1C supporting (sequels, updates, patches) for IL-2.

Translated means 1C was not devoting 100% of their efforts on CoD development, thus only a fool, or someone with a motive, or one of the hanful of devoted whinners of this forum would even try to sell such an idea

Or was it something else I said?

[Force10]

Sure.. sure.. sure..

But tell me, what was it that I said that upset you so much?

Was it me taking the wind out of your CoD development time sail?

When I pointing out that most of that so called 8+ year CoD development time took place, in parallel, with 1C supporting (sequels, updates, patches) for IL-2.

Translated means 1C was not devoting 100% of their efforts on CoD development, thus only a fool, or someone with a motive, or one of the hanful of devoted whinners of this forum would even try to sell such an idea

Or was it something else I said?


You mis-stating timelines doesn't upset me Ace....everyone knows the deal. IL FB was released in early 2004 so that's close to 7 years of pretty much dedicated dev time to COD. 1946 was basically a compilation with some extras so it didn't interfere so much. Since it was all based on the original IL2 engine, it wouldn't have taken much from developing the COD engine.

I will agree with you that COD wasn't a 100% developement effort even though they were able to dedicate a solid 6-7 years to it. Not even close..

[GOA_Potenz]

Il-2 1946 was released in december 2006, Clod developmente started in late 2005, i still remember the first photo of the clouds and the hurri cockpit 3D merged with the old date photo, so since Q4 2006 and ahead CloD was their only develpment work they did till march 2011 when it supouse to be finished and june 2012 when it is not close to be finished yet.

6+ years isn't early development

[Robert]

Not sure how this affected development of CoD, but there was more than PF and 1946 developed between the releases of FB and CoD. There was EAP, PF, Sturmoviks Over Manchuria, Pe-2, and finally 1946. While 1946 was a conglomeration of all the previous releases, there was some new materials that took time to create and add to the game- the Lerche being a prime example..

[GOA_Potenz]

Not sure how this affected development of CoD, but there was more than PF and 1946 developed between the releases of FB and CoD. There was EAP, PF, Sturmoviks Over Manchuria, Pe-2, and finally 1946. While 1946 was a conglomeration of all the previous releases, there was some new materials that took time to create and add to the game- the Lerche being a prime example..

yes but the only developed during 2005 and Q3 2006 was Il-2 over manchuria and 46 that was released in december 2006 as Il-2 1946

[AKA_Tenn]

Clod and IL2FB were developed totally different... also if you can find a copy of the original IL2 sturmovik before forgotten battles, and compare that to 1946 4.11.1... their totally different games... it took 12 years for the game to get to where it is now...and thats 12 years AFTER release...

now how long has clod been out?

see u can't compare them.

[Anders_And]

I seem to be the only one who look forward to another modern version of Aces high. Thats a great game but i dont play it due to its bad graphics.

If we can have CLOD graphics (although im no ta big fan of the greenish colours during daytime in it) and a big multiplayer game with ground vehicles driven by real players and 100s and 100s of players at the same time , well then it sounds like fun to me!:grin:

[AKA_Tenn]

i think everyone would like a game with everything like ww2 online, except with clod type graphics and physics... and perhaps more than just france.... and wouldn't really need to be a monthly fee, could just do it like world of tanks and have it just take a lot longer to get the next piece of equipment if you don't get a premium account...

however i don't think 15$ a month is a lot to play a game... it costs that for a movie ticket, and thats only 2 hours...

[csThor]

Thinking about this all this MMO plan - which I doubt came from Maddox Games but rather the people who sign their pay checks - it seems to be the primary reason why the extremely problematic release hasn't led to 1C abandoning the Il-2 franchise so far. I was wondering why the management backed this franchise after all the troubles ... maybe that's why.

Now, does this coming announcement mean that the 1C management has really gone off the deep end and has thrown itself into yet another erratic and totally illogical development strategy or are they so convinced of Maddox Games' work that they plan to branch out the Il-2 franchise into more than the planned "ordinary" theme-based releases? I don't know but I guess only time will tell. Anyway ... Maddox Games will have to fix the CloD engine before all those grand ideas can be tackled because without a working engine this MMO (as any successive Il-2 release) will be stillborn.

[Volksieg]

however i don't think 15$ a month is a lot to play a game... it costs that for a movie ticket, and thats only 2 hours...

A fair point.... in theory. Personally, I haven't been to the cinema in years as I just can't afford it. :)

MMO=Death of franchise.

Sad fact is that this product has a bad reputation.... sure.... I've flown it for awhile now and enjoyed that experience, in spite of all the grumbles and technical difficulties, but I'm not going to don the rose-tinted specs and pretend everything is wonderful! No matter how much fun I may have with CloD, it's not the fun I paid for... I don't spend money to "Make do" or "Try to enjoy what I have" and I sure as hell ain't going to spend money on any monthly fees etc for that "Privilege"...... sad fact is..... nor are the rest of the "Great unwashed" out there. It is all well and good saying that it is the detractors who are to blame for this situation but that is a gross oversimplification! Sure... they could have produced the greatest piece of software known to mankind and there would still be detractors! That's life! The problem is.... they didn't! You can't blame 1C's failings on the victims of their failure simply because they got angry about feeling, rather justifiably, that they had been ripped off, surely?

[alado]

A fair point.... in theory. Personally, I haven't been to the cinema in years as I just can't afford it. :)

MMO=Death of franchise.

Sad fact is that this product has a bad reputation.... sure.... I've flown it for awhile now and enjoyed that experience, in spite of all the grumbles and technical difficulties, but I'm not going to don the rose-tinted specs and pretend everything is wonderful! No matter how much fun I may have with CloD, it's not the fun I paid for... I don't spend money to "Make do" or "Try to enjoy what I have" and I sure as hell ain't going to spend money on any monthly fees etc for that "Privilege"...... sad fact is..... nor are the rest of the "Great unwashed" out there. It is all well and good saying that it is the detractors who are to blame for this situation but that is a gross oversimplification! Sure... they could have produced the greatest piece of software known to mankind and there would still be detractors! That's life! The problem is.... they didn't! You can't blame 1C's failings on the victims of their failure simply because they got angry about feeling, rather justifiably, that they had been ripped off, surely?

+ 1

Please, a minute of silence to clod :(, and maybe another to 1C ;)

[mazex]

What Il2 had in 2001 was a bucket full of bugs and potential, what it did not have was a "IL2 is broke fan club"

+ 1

And that is a sign of the new "kids" born in the late 80:ies and onwards entering the stage I guess. Instant satisfaction or "it sux".

I read a blog somewhere about "The IT paradox 2.0". Version 1.0 of the paradox was to get the people that really would have most to gain from using computers to actually start using them. That was many years ago and now these people actually use computers and the latest applications as they are a lot easier to use now... Version 2.0 is that these people don't understand that the task of making an application that a really stupid person can use without reading a manual takes a lot of work. The applications are extremely more complicated than in the old days but the users have no understanding of this and have zero acceptance for bugs... Some minor inconvenience and "it sux" and they axe it completely. So today we developers are expected to do applications that are extremely intelligent under the hood that require no manual at all with zero bugs and extreme performance, and people have no patience at all...

So the complexity under the hood goes in one direction and the demand for simplicity and perfection in the user experience goes the other way, and it should be free or at least cost less than it did 15 years ago. The only way to achieve that is naturally to sell extreme volumes of the software, and therefore it has to appeal to a large customer target group. And here we sit whining about why our beloved niche product "sux" and Battlefield 3 doesn't...

To do what we "demand" the team at Maddox Games would have to match that of Dice, with hundreds of people working in the team. They have more people working with QA than the whole MG team...

/mazex

[Chivas]

The new IL-2 engine was designed from the beginning to support a number of different ventures. The fact that the MMO will use the new IL-2 engine suggests that the game engine will be refined and supported for many years, but it doesn't guarantee the survival of this series/venture. That said I see no reason to panic just yet.

[GraveyardJimmy]

+ 1

And that is a sign of the new "kids" born in the late 80:ies and onwards entering the stage I guess. Instant satisfaction or "it sux".


Don't paint us all with the same brush. I was born '89 (I'm 22) annd I am well aware that fixing a game takes time. I think most of the 'instant gratification' crowd sticks to games like Call of Duty rather than put the time in to learn complex engine management. Look at Red Orchestra 2, just had a massive patch and still has problems and that is running on a (modified) version of an engine that is well established and documented and runs in DX9 only.

[Dano]

The new IL-2 engine was designed from the beginning to support a number of different ventures. The fact that the MMO will use the new IL-2 engine suggests that the game engine will be refined and supported for many years, but it doesn't guarantee the survival of this series/venture. That said I see no reason to panic just yet.

Oleg even made noises about a possible MMO years ago.

[mazex]

Don't paint us all with the same brush. I was born '89 (I'm 22) annd I am well aware that fixing a game takes time. I think most of the 'instant gratification' crowd sticks to games like Call of Duty rather than put the time in to learn complex engine management. Look at Red Orchestra 2, just had a massive patch and still has problems and that is running on a (modified) version of an engine that is well established and documented and runs in DX9 only.

Sorry for the generalization "kicking" everyone in the sub 25 year group ;) I'm 42 and I'm affected by it too ;) I don't give an app many chances these days if it is the least cumbersome to use... I was also a lot more patient with software 10-20 years ago than I am today! Those games on the Spectrum really "sucked", but we loved them :-)

/mazex

[podvoxx]

News for mission designers from developer
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=68629&p=1850432&viewfull=1#post1850432

В принципе добавили три события - на убитого статика, здание и взрыв бомбы, с именами и координатами думаю для учёта поможет, не загружающиеся статики надо посмотреть, не знаю пока. Но это всё возможно будет только в финальной версии патча.
In the next steam patch may be added new methods for working with static objects. We will be able to get his name and coordinates.
It is also possible to track down a bomb. Probably will add new features to send messages to the localization.

[pupo162]

News for mission designers from developer
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=68629&p=1850432&viewfull=1#post1850432


In the next steam patch may be added new methods for working with static objects. We will be able to get his name and coordinates.
It is also possible to track down a bomb. Probably will add new features to send messages to the localization.

WOW, thats excellent news! this is what was giving me headeached in distinguishing some ground units as mission objectives and others as everinomment!

thanks!

[csThor]

Is he talking about non-actors such as houses already on the map NOT placed by the mission designer? If so ... http://extreme.pcgameshardware.de/attachments/463108d1314962217t-bewerte-den-avatar-ueber-dir-vk_smiley_thumbs_up.gif

[podvoxx]

Is he talking about non-actors such as houses already on the map NOT placed by the mission designer? If so ... http://extreme.pcgameshardware.de/attachments/463108d1314962217t-bewerte-den-avatar-ueber-dir-vk_smiley_thumbs_up.gif

I think about the objects that are created in the editor.

[Opitz]

All this MMO stuff is complete nonsense... But people have always short memories and if frustrated they try to catch anything to feel better and find some hope.

It is already more than one year since Maddox Games is not able to repair their OWN game. And you should believe them they will make new and next next-gen MMO aircombat sim? LOL... And after that they will send a rocket to Venus, and you can win a free ticket, if you buy it...

Comparing ROF and CLOD team and their work is just nuts... ROF team worked with old IL2 engine just to find out it is complete crap, so they really make a new engine. Actually even CLOD team is doing the same, but meantime, you have a game with plenty of placeholders.

They are not able to make any useful and ... nice ... offline stuff, and you believe they will succeed in MMO area? You will be flying on these next-gen generic maps (cross and circle)?

Just rename themselves finally, why to have it like Maddox Games... Mad Games are enough...

[Opitz]

It's problem for me, because I'm learning English but I didn't finish this process at present.
Central ideas from this articles:
1) we are developing MMO game based on CloD engine
2) announcement will be soon, June 2012 is deadline
3) it will be hardcore game (as old Il-2 and CloD) for the true simmers
4) alpha version will be ready in 2013

This will at least solve the problem with idiotic AI, right? And it is good to hear, it will be in stores in 2013!

[FG28_Kodiak]

News for mission designers from developer
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=68629&p=1850432&viewfull=1#post1850432


In the next steam patch may be added new methods for working with static objects. We will be able to get his name and coordinates.


Give him a big kiss from me! :grin:

[podvoxx]

Give him a big kiss from me! :grin:
Ok))

[159th_Jester]

I'll certainly be interested to hear how 1C intend to acomplish this MMO (even though I have zero interest in buying it.... Simply because I personally don't wish to pay subscription fees).

The thing is, both from a point of view of difficulty and hardware requirements, the CloD engine is simply not suited to a classic MMO scenario.

By definition an MMO needs a massive online community to be financially successful. The steep learning curve involved in mastering even basic flight in CloD will immediately alienate all but those currently involved in the niche flight sim market, and the need for high spec PC's to get the best performance will alienate even more people. As far as ground vehicles go, well load up CloD and change your GFX settings to medium or low and then ask yourself honestly if driving around on that landscape or manning a stationary AA gun with those graphics is an experience you'd pay a monthly fee for.

Hopefully the patch they're currently working on will be a success and by increasing frame rates overall allow lower spec PC's to bump up the GFX settings a little. If so, it would make the possibilities of an MMO based on this engine succeeding that much better.

Whatever they do, I hope 1C are unltimatelysuccessful, but at the moment I'm skeptical, and will remain so until I see some more information from the devs.

[Feathered_IV]

Originally Posted by BlackSix:
It's problem for me, because I'm learning English but I didn't finish this process at present.
Central ideas from this articles:
1) we are developing MMO game based on CloD engine
2) announcement will be soon, June 2012 is deadline
3) it will be hardcore game (as old Il-2 and CloD) for the true simmers
4) alpha version will be ready in 2013


This will at least solve the problem with idiotic AI, right? And it is good to hear, it will be in stores in 2013!

No no, they said the alpha in 2013... Oh wait, I see what you did there. ;)

[Manuc]

This will at least solve the problem with idiotic AI, right? And it is good to hear, it will be in stores in 2013!

2013 Alpha...2014 2nd Alpha...2015 Pre-Beta...2016 Alpha of Beta...2017 Beta... etc

[Buchon]

Its not even in Alpha and it is already beaten ;)

I´m disappointed, only three pages since I leave yesterday :sad:

[David198502]

after sleeping over the thought of an IL2 MMO, i have to say, that i personally will certainly not pay a monthly fee to fly a combat flight sim....not because i couldnt afford it, but simply because i have enough bills every month to pay which are annoying enough...
honestly, if they would build a top notch working sim, i would gladly pay a couple of hundred euros even, but only if things like flight models were as close to reality as possible....
and there the problem starts in my view regarding an il2 MMO....
if they cant even get the FMs correctly in this game, after more than a decade in business, and make them even worse with the latest beta patch, how are they supposed to make them closer to reality in a MMO game.
they will for sure not make them as realistic as possible and historical correct, but they will have to make them even, to secure "playability" for both sides, were you are forced to fly on one server under certain circumstances....thats my biggest concern...anyway i will have to convince my squad mates to switch from our beloved 109s to the ugly Mustang then and fight other Mustangs.

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

[QUOTE=David198502.....anyway i will have to convince my squad mates to switch from our beloved 109s to the ugly Mustang then and fight other Mustangs.[/QUOTE]

Hehehe..........the ugly Mustang?...........this was probably the most beautiful and best fighter of WW2,it was the only aircraft of it's time to be able to escort the American bombers all the way to Berlin,and was far superior to the 109's of the late war,by then the 109 was completely out classed.:lol:

[Buchon]

Diablo 3 is a MMO and does not have a monthly fee, you just buy the game and that´s it.

Knowing the inclinations of Madoxx to merge things maybe we are facing something new in the MMO arena, just saying ;)

[Feathered_IV]

Most MMO's seem to depend on a steady diet of additional content to keep them attractive to players. Maddox Games has always added new content at a glacial pace. I wonder what changes if any would be made to the way MG works if they are the ones producing this title.

[kristorf]

Oh well.......................

[Opitz]

Most MMO's seem to depend on a steady diet of additional content to keep them attractive to players. Maddox Games has always added new content at a glacial pace. I wonder what changes if any would be made to the way MG works if they are the ones producing this title.

And what type of content is now in CLOD?

[Bearcat]

After waiting all of what 6 years for BoB and getting CloD I'll just wait and see how this all pans out without getting my hopes too high.

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

After waiting all of what 6 years for BoB and getting CloD I'll just wait and see how this all pans out without getting my hopes too high.

don't you have something red tailed to keep you occupied? and yes, I feel the same way about this.

[Continu0]

No no, they said the alpha in 2013... Oh wait, I see what you did there. ;)


rofl.... Thank you, I dind´t get it at first... :grin::grin::grin::grin:

[philip.ed]

So if the series turns into an MMO, does that spell the end for the offline community?

I really am struggling to see how the more vocal majority, who stressed their CloD ailments, have caused this to happen. If the sim wasn't released with a plethora of problems there wouldn't be such a majority. (It's funny how it's viewed as a minority right up until something bad happens, isn't it?) Luthier himself stressed in the past that the sim 'is going nowhere', suggesting that no matter how much it is slandered, they are still going to work on it to see it right.
It is this ambiguity which causes the 'naysayers' (who, incidentally, fly the game a lot) to come on the forums and vent their dissatisfaction. In short, the team's PR is a bloody disgrace. They do a damn site better job than most companies, but their 'promises'/proposals for how long certain features will take are nearly always wrong, and this just causes them more hassle. Don't post information unless it is right. Common sense shows that the community aren't all single-minded in believing that 'software has issues, thus I can wait'. Of course people will get angry and repeat the same rant about how their money has been spent on false principles. They do have every right to be angry as well.

The truth is it isn't going to change, and after more than a year the sim is barely looking better than when it was first released. Certainly a lot of the nice features (notably the lighting and those beautiful cockpits) have been done away with. People compare CloD to RoF, but after a year the latter showed that there was light at the end of the tunnel. I can't tell if this tunnel is sealed at the end, or really if we are all just blind.

[catito14]

In my opinion, this is like to want to run when you just started to learn to walk .... i think they need, first, FINISH the game and FIX ALL the bugs of this game (...and give to us the product that we deserve and for what we paid) instead of start with a new project ...

Regards

[SiThSpAwN]

I played Warbirds for a long time, if they could do something like that with the advanced FM and such, I think it could be cool... but if the go arcade and try and compete against WoWP... ugh...

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I played Warbirds for a long time, if they could do something like that with the advanced FM and such, I think it could be cool... but if the go arcade and try and compete against WoWP... ugh...
Agreed 100%

But sadly that is the direction all gaming has been heading for the past 10+ years..

Where the XGEN XBOX instant gratification mind set will win out in the end..

I just hope it is not for a few more years!

Which IMHO means the only way we will get highly detailed and highly realistic flight sims in the future is to pay for it

The good news is prices have come way down!

Back in the early 90s I use to play Air Warrior Online at $12/hr.. It later dropped down to something like $6/hr and we all rejoiced!

Later Warbirds (Confirmed Kill) came out and initially it was a per hour price.. I forget what it was? Something like $2/hr? Which was a god send! Later they changed to a flat rate monthly fee which was around $100/month.. Not sure what it is now

Than a little known flight sim called IL-2 came out that had better 'everything' and it was FREE!

Sadly, I think in 10 years we will look back at IL-2 as the excerption to the rule, in that IMHO I can only see highly detailed flight sims being something we have to pay-to-play coming back. Because as noted above, all the current game makers are trending towards the MMO pay way.

On the up side.. There is a benefit for pay-to-play! It has this filtering effect of keeping the kids out! Which IMHO is a good thing IMHO!

[BigC208]

After waiting all of what 6 years for BoB and getting CloD I'll just wait and see how this all pans out without getting my hopes too high.

I lost all hope a while ago. All I'm praying for (yup, it's down to praying) is fix what's broken, optimize the graphics core for SLI and maybe, some day, we can play it the way it was intended at high resolutions. I'm running GTX680SLI right now on a 30 inch 2560x1600 monitor. Got it to work with both cards doing better than 90% all of the time. Problem is that the game only runs about 10% faster at the highest settings. I mostly use Vsync. Over water it's a solid 55-60fps but over land it drops down between 30-45fps. Compare that with DCS A10 and RoF running butter smooth (without Vsync) between 90-120fps at the same resolution. I still think it's the best looking sim of the bunch but it needs to get fixed or the show stops right here as far as I'm concerned. I'll buy the sequel but only when it hits the bargain bin at Steam if it's as unoptimized as it is now. This is one sim where throwing stupid money at it won't make a d*mn difference.

[SiThSpAwN]

Agreed 100%

.....

On the up side.. There is a benefit for pay-to-play! It has this filtering effect of keeping the kids out! Which IMHO is a good thing IMHO!

If its done right, and they focus on Simulation it could be pretty good, and they have a steady income to continue to improve and develop. Playing devils advocate here though, they would have to change how they communicated with the community, and patches/fixes/updates would have to come at a steady pace if I am to shell out ANY money on a regular basis... that said, for what COD could be, the glimmer of awesome I see in it... it could be great...

Now if they could do MMO with the ability to allow the Mod community to continue to add to it... well that would be legend.... wait for it... dary....

[Force10]

If they are trying to reach a broader audience than the hardcore IL-2 crowd, usually that means dumbing things down. The words most simmers hate to hear from a developer prior to release is "more accessible". I have a feeling they will probably do just that after looking at the number of the hardcore crowd flying COD. The partial good news is they probably will make getting the COD engine stable at a quicker pace. The bad news is they will more than likely backburner fixing stuff like AI, radio commands, etc. that offline folks have been waiting for IMO.

[ATAG_Doc]

They better not dumb things down. The only dumbing down that better happen is allowing these players to drive little yellow short busses around on the map while we strafe and bomb them.

http://imcdb.org/i082757.jpg

[Volksieg]

They better not dumb things down. The only dumbing down that better happen is allowing these players to drive little yellow short busses around on the map while we strafe and bomb them.

http://imcdb.org/i082757.jpg

:mrgreen: +350,000

[Kwiatek]

I played Warbirds for a long time, if they could do something like that with the advanced FM and such, I think it could be cool... but if the go arcade and try and compete against WoWP... ugh...

Do you think 1C will manage to do accurate and advanced FM for such many planes like in Warbirds if they have serious trouble to do correct FM and performacne for a few BOB planes??

[philip.ed]

On the up side.. There is a benefit for pay-to-play! It has this filtering effect of keeping the kids out! Which IMHO is a good thing IMHO!

Then you're a very stupid man because the kids are the future. If they grow up with an apathetic nature towards this genre, it will die out with the 'adults'. Period.

CloD doesn't need to go this route to survive. The original series showed that simplicity is key. RoF's base game is now free, but to upgrade you need to play. IMHO that's a great way to get people into the game, and for the arcade types CloD has the settings to make the game an easy ride (just as the original Il-2 did). Keeping the kids out is an awful decision. Allowing them to mature in is highly logical.

[David198502]

Then you're a very stupid man because the kids are the future. If they grow up with an apathetic nature towards this genre, it will die out with the 'adults'. Period.

CloD doesn't need to go this route to survive. The original series showed that simplicity is key. RoF's base game is now free, but to upgrade you need to play. IMHO that's a great way to get people into the game, and for the arcade types CloD has the settings to make the game an easy ride (just as the original Il-2 did). Keeping the kids out is an awful decision. Allowing them to mature in is highly logical.

+1
keeping customers out, regardless of age, is certainly not clever ace, neither for 1c nor for us, but i can imagine, that you would certainly be happy to pay 12 dollars/hour to fly alone in the skies, pretending to be an ace.:grin:

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Then you're a very stupid man because the kids are the future.
Oh you kids say the dardest things!

Phill.. I know I have said this to you in the past..

But it apears that you have forgot?

So allow me to say it again

You seem to have me confused with someone that gives a flip about what you say or think..

Just for future reference know that I don't!

Thanks in advance! S!

[Sturm_Williger]

Oh you kids say the dardest things!

Phill.. I know I have said this to you in the past..

But it apears that you have forgot?

So allow me to say it again

You seem to have me confused with someone that gives a flip about what you say or think..

Just for future reference know that I don't!

Thanks in advance! S!

His point, though, is apt.

[Specht]

You could've said it would keep immature players out, but by generalizing the term 'kids', you are being an ignorant fool.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

His point, though, is apt.
Hardly

In that kids eventually grow up, at which point they will be able to afford to play.

Granted this filter can result in keeping out kids who don't act like kids..

But considering the fact that most kids act like kids it would not be a big loss IMHO!

At least that is the way it worked, and worked well back in the AirWarrior days when we paid $12/hr to play. With a filter like that, you didn't see anyone sitting in the lobby spaming the text at $12/hr like so many kids do today

That and most kids don't give a rip about historically accurate flight sims..

At that age chances are they will be off playing the arcade MMO version anyway..

Typically it takes time, as in grow older, before someone can appreciate the historically accurate flight sims

[ACE-OF-ACES]

You could've said it would keep immature players out, but by generalizing the term 'kids', you are being an ignorant fool.
Hardly

In that kids eventually grow up, at which point they will be able to afford to play.

Granted this filter can result in keeping out kids who don't act like kids..

But considering the fact that most kids act like kids it would not be a big loss IMHO!

At least that is the way it worked, and worked well back in the AirWarrior days when we paid $12/hr to play. With a filter like that, you didn't see anyone sitting in the lobby spaming the text at $12/hr like so many kids do today

That and most kids don't give a rip about historically accurate flight sims..

At that age chances are they will be off playing the arcade MMO version anyway..

Typically it takes time, as in grow older, before someone can appreciate the historically accurate flight sims

[JG52Krupi]

AOA proving once again why he should be forever ignored, lol the utter ignorance!

P.S.

Please for crying out loud stop quoting him!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Poor JG52Krupi.. still having trouble admiting he has come full circle and that I was right back when he was defending the whinners

[Robert]

Screw the kids. Can we keep the immature adults out?

[Luffe]

Screw the kids. Can we keep the immature adults out?

Hey, that would be the ultimate demise of CloDBoMMoM.

[KG26_Alpha]

@ everyone

Stop the personal stuff and the speculations or its off to the Crystal Ball.

Many thanks


:)



.

[philip.ed]

Oh you kids say the dardest things!

Phill.. I know I have said this to you in the past..

But it apears that you have forgot?

So allow me to say it again

You seem to have me confused with someone that gives a flip about what you say or think..

Just for future reference know that I don't!

Thanks in advance! S!

Take note forum! He has no logical reply so results to personal attacks. How charming. He has the grammar of a child as well, so perhaps we are seeing hypocrisy personified?

He also fails to realise that, by isolating the future from this genre...there is no future. But note that you need not lower the game towards the future generation. They have WoP and the like to get a thirst for this genre, and Il-2, CloD etc provide the necessary realism to further their enjoyment. As I said before: CloD et al have the relevant modes to allow arcade styles of play. Not every adult plays at full-realism. What about older gentlemen who struggle?

Ignorance is bliss, but it doesn't earn money.

Also, AoA, if my posts are so abhorrent then please put me on ignore.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Take note forum! He has no logical reply so results to personal attacks. How charming. He has the grammar of a child as well, so perhaps we are seeing hypocrisy personified?
Yes take note..

And note philips initial reply to me where he said

Then you're a very stupid man because the kids are the future.

Nothing funnier/sadder than a guy who STARTED the personal attacks trying to play the part of the VICTIM

[Insuber]

Fighter pilota are notoriously aggressive people, but you guys are a bit exaggerating now :-D

[philip.ed]

It's typical British humour, AoA. I would have said it to anyone on this forum, and I'd say it to my friends in real life. It's said in the context of jest.

Note that I didn't make it personal by any means. I simply stated that your approach was ignorant, at best, and stupidity in the very least. And I stand by that, as others here have. Just in the same way you have called Potenz ignorant for not understanding the meaning of DX-11 API. Those in glass houses, mate...

[KG26_Alpha]

Guys please/..............

[ACE-OF-ACES]

It's typical British humour, AoA. I would have said it to anyone on this forum, and I'd say it to my friends in real life. It's said in the context of jest.
Nothing funnier/sadder than a guy who STARTED the personal attacks trying to play the part of the VICTIM and when caught doing so trys to play down and or re-spin his personal attacks

[philip.ed]

So now that we've gathered that the kids are the future of the flight-sim genre, will an MMO allow the offliners the chance to play? Or is CloD to be handed to the onliners for good?

[klem]

A number of interesting and competing points here and I'd just like to pick up on a couple.

To those that don't think MMO has much to offer I'd say, as an ex Air Warrior and Aces High player, that to take part in a properly organised scenario with say 400 others, assigned to units, planned on a historical scale, briefed, comm'd and organised etc in a historical action like BoB, Pearl Harbour or Big Week creates a level of immersion you just don't get in IL-2 1946 or CoD. Whilst the latter may (will?) have FMs, graphics etc down pat they don't offer that immersion and the feeling of (almost) "being there". Unless you taken part in one of those scenarios and felt the hairs stand up on the back of your neck you may not understand. But that is what many of the more serious WWII simmers want, something to take them deeper into that era and experience. All we get in CoD is a shallow world of a few small time combats and a few small formation intercepts. In IL-2'46 you may also have more objective based maps and some DGEN campaigns but no real scale to them. Just a few squadrons before hitting the 128 limit or more likely about 80. Stop and think. CoD can never really deliver even one typical day in the BoB because it can't support even 400+ aircraft at one time. CoD doesn't deliver the BoB. It needs to be taken to another level or it remains just a few aircraft dogfighting or bombing or the occasional small scale raid scenario. Before someone shouts 'MMO? ping, packets, bandwidth, impossible' that's for the devs to work out and the broadband companies to deliver on as many of them are now. And the next cry, 'we can't get more than 1Mb BB, I can't afford a PC to run it', I'm sorry but you can't expect to run this stuff at that level without the kit and yes that's another squeeze on the market which is why the mass market, arcade, low data bandwidth is important to make what we want on the side viable. What was that? That kind of technology split isn't viable? Look at that i-phone in your hand. Think back ten years.

Regarding 'the kids'. You either want realism and the commitment to learning it demands or you want arcade. Take a look around at the guys you know playing IL-2 '46 and CoD. I bet most of them aren't kids but they were 10 or 15 years ago when they didn't have the patience for sims like IL-2 and played Mario instead. Only a percentage of them even now have the patience for IL-2/CoD which is why 'realism' is a niche market. So what do 1C do to survive? They have to offer to the mass market, the kids, hopefully to be able to support the niche realism market (which is probably where their hearts as aviation sim developers lie). So bring on a MMO with both arcade and full switch settings, different bandwidth demands and servers to support them (Aces High has - had? - different realism levels on their servers).

Pay a monthly subscription? If it captures the arcade market too it should be cheap enough for what you get back. £10/$15 a month? Thats a couple of Big Macs, Fries and a drink and lasts 30 days instead of 15 minutes. Of course the run of the mill play will be set by the server managers but the opportunity for the community to have access to the server and plan and organise large scale special events will give those planners a new world to work with.

Considering MMO business models:
Free DLC? OK if its 'earned' by some kind of server tracked 'career' points.
Paid DLC to 'Buy what you've earned'? Perhaps if its not expensive.
Buy to Win? Absolutely not in the 'realistic' model. Of course in the Arcade model.

But can 1C regularly deliver 'new' content for the arcade players and keep the cash coming in?

[louisv]

With $15 / month, you can finance $1000 easy with a credit card, so what are you giving those people ?

$200 for Prepar3d is cheaper !!!

So to make things simpler, a game for the price of a computer...

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Regarding 'the kids'. You either want realism and the commitment to learning it demands or you want arcade. Take a look around at the guys you know playing IL-2 '46 and CoD. I bet most of them aren't kids but they were 10 or 15 years ago when they didn't have the patience for sims like IL-2 and played Mario instead. Only a percentage of them even now have the patience for IL-2/CoD which is why 'realism' is a niche market.
Agreed 100%

And just to be clear.. The kind of kids I was refering to are the ones that are trying to play mario while playing IL-2! ;)

[philip.ed]

I got into CFS 1 when I was a kid and took it from there. I played mario as well, patiently, at expert level.

I think there are far too many generalisations about what kids are in these topics; especially when there are members here, with all due respect, who have the grammar of kids or type with the same ignorance as the kids they are slamming against (not meant to sound sexual at all)

And I'm not aiming this at anyone. My point was, and I don't want to further any ambiguity, that the kids are the future. Consequently excluding them completely would end this genre.

Now I can play 1946 with easy settings and have a blast. It has a high learning curve, but I think it's easy to get into. It's what I first noticed about the original Il-2 demo. I crashed the first time I tried to get that 109 off the ground, but I was stunned by everything. CFS has sat on the shelf ever since.

So really, whilst many kids are happily button bashing and playing mario, the ones who find out about this game and get into it genuinely have an interest, and it would be unwise to not recognise this.

Just my 2p. I don't want to get into arguments with AoA because whilst he may have something personal against me, I don't have anything against him, and I find such pettiness childish.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

phill.. act like an adult for a moment and heed Alpha's wishes and let it go as I did after your last week atempt to keep this argument going by del my post to you.. Deal?

[ATAG_Bliss]

A number of interesting and competing points here and I'd just like to pick up on a couple.

To those that don't think MMO has much to offer I'd say, as an ex Air Warrior and Aces High player, that to take part in a properly organised scenario with say 400 others, assigned to units, planned on a historical scale, briefed, comm'd and organised etc in a historical action like BoB, Pearl Harbour or Big Week creates a level of immersion you just don't get in IL-2 1946 or CoD. Whilst the latter may (will?) have FMs, graphics etc down pat they don't offer that immersion and the feeling of (almost) "being there". Unless you taken part in one of those scenarios and felt the hairs stand up on the back of your neck you may not understand. But that is what many of the more serious WWII simmers want, something to take them deeper into that era and experience. All we get in CoD is a shallow world of a few small time combats and a few small formation intercepts. In IL-2'46 you may also have more objective based maps and some DGEN campaigns but no real scale to them. Just a few squadrons before hitting the 128 limit or more likely about 80. Stop and think. CoD can never really deliver even one typical day in the BoB because it can't support even 400+ aircraft at one time. CoD doesn't deliver the BoB. It needs to be taken to another level or it remains just a few aircraft dogfighting or bombing or the occasional small scale raid scenario. Before someone shouts 'MMO? ping, packets, bandwidth, impossible' that's for the devs to work out and the broadband companies to deliver on as many of them are now. And the next cry, 'we can't get more than 1Mb BB, I can't afford a PC to run it', I'm sorry but you can't expect to run this stuff at that level without the kit and yes that's another squeeze on the market which is why the mass market, arcade, low data bandwidth is important to make what we want on the side viable. What was that? That kind of technology split isn't viable? Look at that i-phone in your hand. Think back ten years.

Regarding 'the kids'. You either want realism and the commitment to learning it demands or you want arcade. Take a look around at the guys you know playing IL-2 '46 and CoD. I bet most of them aren't kids but they were 10 or 15 years ago when they didn't have the patience for sims like IL-2 and played Mario instead. Only a percentage of them even now have the patience for IL-2/CoD which is why 'realism' is a niche market. So what do 1C do to survive? They have to offer to the mass market, the kids, hopefully to be able to support the niche realism market (which is probably where their hearts as aviation sim developers lie). So bring on a MMO with both arcade and full switch settings, different bandwidth demands and servers to support them (Aces High has - had? - different realism levels on their servers).

Pay a monthly subscription? If it captures the arcade market too it should be cheap enough for what you get back. £10/$15 a month? Thats a couple of Big Macs, Fries and a drink and lasts 30 days instead of 15 minutes. Of course the run of the mill play will be set by the server managers but the opportunity for the community to have access to the server and plan and organise large scale special events will give those planners a new world to work with.

Considering MMO business models:
Free DLC? OK if its 'earned' by some kind of server tracked 'career' points.
Paid DLC to 'Buy what you've earned'? Perhaps if its not expensive.
Buy to Win? Absolutely not in the 'realistic' model. Of course in the Arcade model.

But can 1C regularly deliver 'new' content for the arcade players and keep the cash coming in?

That sounds all fine and dandy klem, but if this is supposed to be built off the Clod engine, then they have some serious work cut out for them. We have the best server hardware on the planet dual cpu 6 cores a piece / 10gbps connection and the game can barely handle 50 players at the moment without an absolute slide show. I just can't see some other host spending the money on hardware like that or the software to somehow be able to support anything near that. I'd love to be proved wrong, but the only way I see that sort of stuff happening is if everything is entirely dumbed down.

My main concerns as I stated earlier with MMO stuff is it usually takes away from the users ability to manage things. Currently we don't even have real dedicated server files, and have to deal with things like steam disconnecting and so on. Now just imagine we have to connect to steam and then a browser ran by 1C. I just see an even bigger potential for failure that way. Look at ROF and their master browser. Servers shut down at 50 players, stats disappear, servers crash, all from it being overloaded/terrible coding. Again, I'd love to be proved wrong, but you have a constant online connection that now has to rely on not only steam but also another browser, I just see the recipe for an epic failure.

My only hope is that this is a completely standalone thing from the new SOW/BOB/CLOD series we have now, and that BoM is the next installment. I can deal with steam, and waiting on things to get fixed. But saying this engine is capable of MMO style stuff will be believable when I see it. If they can't fix what we have now, how can they even think about announcing an MMO based off the same engine? It just boggles the mind.

[HamishUK]

If they can't fix what we have now, how can they even think about announcing an MMO based off the same engine? It just boggles the mind.

This.

It seems 1C does not have a clear idea of what direction to take. First we have an appalling release of a much hyped and (off the back of IL2) defacto flight sim. Sadly we are now over a year down the line with the game still in an appalling state. I recall thinking that 4-6 months down the line CloD would be up and running and yet here we are.

1C then announces BoM and moving some of the key ingrediants (Dynamic weather etc) from CloD to BoM. CloD is supported in terms of fixing the game (as it should be) but no further development in terms of expanding this particular area of conflict.

Now we see an MMO announcement as WoT an WoP are making steady cashflow on a F2P / P2W model and 1C wants a part of that cash rich area. Meanwhile DCS releases a P51 technology demonstrator that whilst still has a long way to go is relatively flawless as they build on DCS World.

I am not sure what 1C are doing but it's all rather fragmented.

[von Brühl]

I can't wait to get phat lootz grinding Spitfires on ATAG! ;)

[adonys]

A number of interesting and competing points here and I'd just like to pick up on a couple.

To those that don't think MMO has much to offer I'd say, as an ex Air Warrior and Aces High player, that to take part in a properly organised scenario with say 400 others, assigned to units, planned on a historical scale, briefed, comm'd and organised etc in a historical action like BoB, Pearl Harbour or Big Week creates a level of immersion you just don't get in IL-2 1946 or CoD. Whilst the latter may (will?) have FMs, graphics etc down pat they don't offer that immersion and the feeling of (almost) "being there". Unless you taken part in one of those scenarios and felt the hairs stand up on the back of your neck you may not understand. But that is what many of the more serious WWII simmers want, something to take them deeper into that era and experience. All we get in CoD is a shallow world of a few small time combats and a few small formation intercepts. In IL-2'46 you may also have more objective based maps and some DGEN campaigns but no real scale to them. Just a few squadrons before hitting the 128 limit or more likely about 80. Stop and think. CoD can never really deliver even one typical day in the BoB because it can't support even 400+ aircraft at one time. CoD doesn't deliver the BoB. It needs to be taken to another level or it remains just a few aircraft dogfighting or bombing or the occasional small scale raid scenario. Before someone shouts 'MMO? ping, packets, bandwidth, impossible' that's for the devs to work out and the broadband companies to deliver on as many of them are now. And the next cry, 'we can't get more than 1Mb BB, I can't afford a PC to run it', I'm sorry but you can't expect to run this stuff at that level without the kit and yes that's another squeeze on the market which is why the mass market, arcade, low data bandwidth is important to make what we want on the side viable. What was that? That kind of technology split isn't viable? Look at that i-phone in your hand. Think back ten years.

Regarding 'the kids'. You either want realism and the commitment to learning it demands or you want arcade. Take a look around at the guys you know playing IL-2 '46 and CoD. I bet most of them aren't kids but they were 10 or 15 years ago when they didn't have the patience for sims like IL-2 and played Mario instead. Only a percentage of them even now have the patience for IL-2/CoD which is why 'realism' is a niche market. So what do 1C do to survive? They have to offer to the mass market, the kids, hopefully to be able to support the niche realism market (which is probably where their hearts as aviation sim developers lie). So bring on a MMO with both arcade and full switch settings, different bandwidth demands and servers to support them (Aces High has - had? - different realism levels on their servers).

Pay a monthly subscription? If it captures the arcade market too it should be cheap enough for what you get back. £10/$15 a month? Thats a couple of Big Macs, Fries and a drink and lasts 30 days instead of 15 minutes. Of course the run of the mill play will be set by the server managers but the opportunity for the community to have access to the server and plan and organise large scale special events will give those planners a new world to work with.

Considering MMO business models:
Free DLC? OK if its 'earned' by some kind of server tracked 'career' points.
Paid DLC to 'Buy what you've earned'? Perhaps if its not expensive.
Buy to Win? Absolutely not in the 'realistic' model. Of course in the Arcade model.

But can 1C regularly deliver 'new' content for the arcade players and keep the cash coming in?

That's exactly why War Thunder MUST be seen as serious competition by 1C. Because I think people will migrate in there in mass after launch. The graphics are not bad at all, the FM's are not totally arcadish, and the feeling of being there is right there!

[Feathered_IV]

I miss Tree. I'd like to hear his take on all this. ;)

[Hooves]

Well to weigh in on this MMO conversation. I am a beta tester for War Thunder, and it IS arcade mode.......for now. However, when played in the cockpit, it is as rewarding as anything I have experienced in CoD. I am taking the game modes with a grain of salt in anticipation of the editor, dynamic campaigns and large scale war that will also offer tank and ship battles (you will be able to control them individualy). The FM's feel ok, the complexity is about at the level of Wings of Prey, or 1946.

Thats about all I can say about it due to the NDA, but I can tell you I have never CTD'd out of a session. The game runs incredibly smooth. Those two things alone have me playing it more than CoD.

Lots of people love to rank up (Im not one of them TBH) but it does keep you coming back to try and edge in a few more points. We'll have to see how they other game modes are managed (full real historic battles) but over all I would not count WT WOP out just yet.

[hiro]

I don't think the twin MMO (thunder and WOW planes :) will challenge IL-2 BOB/CLOD and its successors (once the bugs are fixed) or DCS p-51


The level of detail is greater and those engines (dcs and CLOD) are better than the old IL-2 1946 (which thunder has and WOWP will probably copy)


Also the type of flyer one will cater to is different. Thunder and WOWP will be for the gamer set, who probably have a mmorpg account, dabble in Call of Duty series games, have a console, while CLOD and DCS will be for the simmers.


I'm glad WOWP and Thunder are out. If they get the air / ground / sea epic action feel down, it will motivate Il-2 devs to get the same in their game (while retaining the sim feel of the game)


I think its good, because the more then genre is out there, the more developers willing to take a chance at making a great ww2 flight sim. Heck it may even return to the golden age of simming where we had lots to chose from.


Someone mentioned the devs don't have a direction in the game. They do. Look back to IL-2 1946's and the roadmap is similar (note I didn't say the same). One aspect is making it close as a sim as possible (given restrictions of hardware / software) regarding details. Then the other is releasing new plane sets / vehicles / theater of operations per iteration of game until all of WW 2 and Korea are covered.

It's just the complexity and issues are much to handle, and they are doing the best they can.

---------

Just some notes about MMO's . . .

one of the main problem with cash cow MMO's is the more cash is flowing in, the more the game approaches the radar of hackers and cheaters.

I remember in Il-2 people could spot cheaters really easily, and since alot of vets knew how certain planes flew / handled / weaponry etc.

But in mmo's with lots of accounts and servers, the cat and mouse game usually ends up the haxors playing the cat.

MMORGP's is a fact. Take WOW (world of warcraft), Blizzard rakes in millions and they have teams dedicated to catching cheaters. But cheating happens, and alot of it has to do with the guys/gals used to catch cheaters or help the players (game / dungeon master role) as they tend to pass code / help out friends.

The game code is very mature, so the devs know all aspects of it and the new guys taking over, will have documentation out of their ears to figure something out. But the thing is, exploits are easy because alot of non devs had managed to piece the code together over the years and also architecture wise have found certain holes . . .

The game is based on a simulated dice roll, and I got lucky and got included in a guild where they had game hacks to always get the top % of their rolls. The game got easy and very boring afterwards. It was fun at first, being like Neo in the Matrix but it got boring.

WOWP and Thunder doesn't have the $$ and manpower blizzard has, and so their defenses against hacking will have lot less resources.

Il-2 was able to get away because the community usually played watchdog. the problem with MMO's is the community is more fragmented due to the size . . . .


Another thing . . .


I'm wondering how they handle the complexity. Will they take IL-2's route, where more complex engine handling and skill at engine management and things like trim, will allow an edge over some that has arcade settings?

Also the balance factor, they say experten and newbs will be in the same scenario. Strangely enough if someone has wonder woman view vs full on, even experten in full on will find it harder if intermediates have wonder woman?


Then there's the experience points, so say someone racks up tons of exp, he's an expert right? So that means he only gets full CEM and full cockpit only . . .

Also usually MMO's need to keep the guys playing for a long time, and if they have people needing massive points to slowly unlock all the planets or play though campaigns to unlock planes that take forever (and keep them on their monthly tab) people will lose interest.

Or if heavily experienced they get "rpg" (role playing game bonus) like if flying through fog, they can see further, or cross wind landings affect them less etc . .. they get more hits on gun fire (provided both are shooting correctly according to ww2 standards and deflection and convergence equal to a not experienced game wise, player) etc

but then you'll have uber super players, and that's the inherent problem of the rpg aspect.

If people play MMO style games for a long time they expect to get rewarded for it . . . and this can unbalance things.


It's just easier to CLOD and IL-2 style, then its just a matter of skill.

[Volksieg]

Also the type of flyer one will cater to is different. Thunder and WOWP will be for the gamer set, who probably have a mmorpg account, dabble in Call of Duty series games, have a console, while CLOD and DCS will be for the simmers.


Not a gripe at your post at all, Hiro... just an observation. lol

I've noticed that some people seem to think that one can either be a gamer or a simmer. :D I used to play EVE and Warhammer Online, I have dabbled in Call of Duty and enjoyed it thoroughly, I have all three of the current games consoles............. and I also love a realistic simulator.

We are out there, you know! :D

Though it has to be said..... flying CloD has totally ruined all my other, more arcadey, flight games. :D

[BlackSix]

Friday Update will be late in the evening.

[SlipBall]

Friday Update will be late in the evening.



Thank you B6

[Continu0]

Thank you very much!

[KG26_Alpha]

Friday Update will be late in the evening.

Cue the drum roll .....................................


:) thxz B6

[Stirwenn]

Thx !
Question : update may concerne news or stuff as recovering hits effects, etc... ?

[BlackSix]

Thx !
Question : update may concerne news or stuff as recovering hits effects, etc... ?

We will have to fix all broken effects and DX9 in final version of patch.

[Melbourne, FL]

Friday Update will be late in the evening.

Thanks for the info...looking forward to the update.

Alexander

[David198502]

cant wait for the il2-MMO version of that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs56Mr9iFqQ

[Meusli]

cant wait for the il2-MMO version of that:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs56Mr9iFqQ

This must now be the biggest internet cliché around, it was funny 5 years ago but now it's just eurgh...

[David198502]

This must now be the biggest internet cliché around, it was funny 5 years ago but now it's just eurgh...

then dont watch it, simple

[jamesdietz]

Well to weigh in on this MMO conversation. I am a beta tester for War Thunder, and it IS arcade mode.......for now. However, when played in the cockpit, it is as rewarding as anything I have experienced in CoD. I am taking the game modes with a grain of salt in anticipation of the editor, dynamic campaigns and large scale war that will also offer tank and ship battles (you will be able to control them individualy). The FM's feel ok, the complexity is about at the level of Wings of Prey, or 1946.

Thats about all I can say about it due to the NDA, but I can tell you I have never CTD'd out of a session. The game runs incredibly smooth. Those two things alone have me playing it more than CoD.

Lots of people love to rank up (Im not one of them TBH) but it does keep you coming back to try and edge in a few more points. We'll have to see how they other game modes are managed (full real historic battles) but over all I would not count WT WOP out just yet.

I check in with the WT website several times a week , but it gives no clue about possible release date...do you have a ballpark idea?

[Tempered]

I think they will try to cash in on the current DayZ craze and have zombies running around the airfields. MMO players will be tasked with fighting through the zombie hordes to board their plane. :rolleyes:

[klem]

That sounds all fine and dandy klem, but if this is supposed to be built off the Clod engine, then they have some serious work cut out for them. We have the best server hardware on the planet dual cpu 6 cores a piece / 10gbps connection and the game can barely handle 50 players at the moment without an absolute slide show. I just can't see some other host spending the money on hardware like that or the software to somehow be able to support anything near that. I'd love to be proved wrong, but the only way I see that sort of stuff happening is if everything is entirely dumbed down.

My main concerns as I stated earlier with MMO stuff is it usually takes away from the users ability to manage things. Currently we don't even have real dedicated server files, and have to deal with things like steam disconnecting and so on. Now just imagine we have to connect to steam and then a browser ran by 1C. I just see an even bigger potential for failure that way. Look at ROF and their master browser. Servers shut down at 50 players, stats disappear, servers crash, all from it being overloaded/terrible coding. Again, I'd love to be proved wrong, but you have a constant online connection that now has to rely on not only steam but also another browser, I just see the recipe for an epic failure.

My only hope is that this is a completely standalone thing from the new SOW/BOB/CLOD series we have now, and that BoM is the next installment. I can deal with steam, and waiting on things to get fixed. But saying this engine is capable of MMO style stuff will be believable when I see it. If they can't fix what we have now, how can they even think about announcing an MMO based off the same engine? It just boggles the mind.

I understand all you say Bliss and I can't claim to know what 'the engine' can or can't deliver. I am just stepping back and looking at the gameplay advantages of MMO which I always hoped CoD would be capable of. In my simple mind there seemed to be two questions determining the success of MMO (bear in mind Aces High has been doing this for years at 'lower specs').

1. Can my PC deliver on such a volume if activity? Only a percentage of the MMO aircraft are going to be within range and in need of rendering at any one time. This does seem to be a factor related to 'the engine' and if realism means a high spec PC then so be it. As an option in a game capable of offering 'Full Realism' for the hardcore and 'Relaxed Realism' for the mass market the return could make it viable.

2. Can the WWW deliver on the data exchanges necessary? Obviously a factor of the connection available and if realism means a high bandwidth BB then again so be it. A lower level of data transfer could serve the mass arcade market.

These are problems for the devs to solve. I don't much care about the technicalities, that's their problem.

Similarly, I don't care whether a MMO uses Steam or not. Again, its a dev choice of a suitable means for success.

We are the customers. We set the market expectations. Don't get stuck in what today offers. Expect it, demand it. It won't happen otherwise.

btw I never for a moment thought of CoD and BoM being an integral part of the MMO. I believe that is a separate animal even if its based on the same engine.

Interesting question for me is would I play a Maddox Games MMO if it were of lesser quality than CoD/BoM? I left Aces High II because of the dumbed down flight models and the "one ping, no wing" damage models. If 1C delivered MMO with good FMs and DMs but perhaps with 'reductions' in other areas, would the immersion of MMO campaigns be enough to compensate?

[Blackdog_kt]

I'm all for MMO as long as it's optional.

The way i see it, the best business model is the one that doesn't infuriate the users. And since users get infuriated when they have no choice on certain things, but they all like different things, it's best to have options.

If it was my decision and it was doable, i would do it like this:

CoD is the first sim in the series.

BoM is the second sim, playable as standalone or merged with CoD.

The main game engine is the same, so improvements in that aspect carry over across all titles.

So far, it's the same as the previous IL2 series model.

Then, here comes the optional bit: people can have servers like the ones we have now, or pay a monthly fee to play on the company servers which will presumably have better scenarios and/or beefier hardware.

This way, if i want to play on the MMO servers i can pay the fee, but if i want to i can still fly on the community servers.

As long as the MMO model doesn't limit the amount of control we have over how we play, i don't care. So, either give us the above option or make the MMO sim a completely separate release based on the same engine. Forcing the users down a one way street is always the worst possible choice.

[Continu0]

I'm all for MMO as long as it's optional.

The way i see it, the best business model is the one that doesn't infuriate the users. And since users get infuriated when they have no choice on certain things, but they all like different things, it's best to have options.

If it was my decision and it was doable, i would do it like this:

CoD is the first sim in the series.

BoM is the second sim, playable as standalone or merged with CoD.

The main game engine is the same, so improvements in that aspect carry over across all titles.

So far, it's the same as the previous IL2 series model.

Then, here comes the optional bit: people can have servers like the ones we have now, or pay a monthly fee to play on the company servers which will presumably have better scenarios and/or beefier hardware.

This way, if i want to play on the MMO servers i can pay the fee, but if i want to i can still fly on the community servers.

As long as the MMO model doesn't limit the amount of control we have over how we play, i don't care. So, either give us the above option or make the MMO sim a completely separate release based on the same engine. Forcing the users down a one way street is always the worst possible choice.

agree 150%. Hope it´s going to be this way...

[McHilt]

I'm all for MMO as long as it's optional.

The way i see it, the best business model is the one that doesn't infuriate the users. And since users get infuriated when they have no choice on certain things, but they all like different things, it's best to have options.

If it was my decision and it was doable, i would do it like this:

CoD is the first sim in the series.

BoM is the second sim, playable as standalone or merged with CoD.

The main game engine is the same, so improvements in that aspect carry over across all titles.

So far, it's the same as the previous IL2 series model.

Then, here comes the optional bit: people can have servers like the ones we have now, or pay a monthly fee to play on the company servers which will presumably have better scenarios and/or beefier hardware.

This way, if i want to play on the MMO servers i can pay the fee, but if i want to i can still fly on the community servers.

As long as the MMO model doesn't limit the amount of control we have over how we play, i don't care. So, either give us the above option or make the MMO sim a completely separate release based on the same engine. Forcing the users down a one way street is always the worst possible choice.

That's actually what I hope for. I'm not so much into mmo stuff and it would be nice to see this series evolve into the IL2 kind of way. Man, I'm dying to play this sim seeing all those great birds coming along but money doesn't permit kind a deal so far. Still I follow these updates patiently hoping they come up with the above scenario sooner or later.

Whatever you plan at 1C, I admire your work, I know how hard it is building something from scratch as I run my own business trying to pull off what I love so much... All the best to you guys there and keep it up.

[NervousEnergy]

I don't see how current tech, even if it's bug free and coded to a perfection of efficiency, could handle MMO scale interaction using CloD engine levels of fidelity. 100 players, sure... once the bugs get ironed out and we get an efficient dedicated server. 1000? No way. Look at the issues Eve has once you get 500+ people in a system shooting at each other with complex calcuations. But even 100 players at a time could give one heck of an experience with a bug-free CloD engine, especially if some of the ground units were also human piloted.

I'd be very happy if the product they were contemplating was more like the persistent battlefield used by the old Falcon 4. The 100 player 2 hour scenario you fly today gets tallied with all the other missions happening that day on the 1C 'MMO' servers, and you get a change in the lines the next day. It's not a single-instance MMO like Eve, but more like the multiple-instanced dungeons you get in most modern fantasy MMOs, with the outcome of the various technically distinct and unconnected instances (missions) having an overall effect on the Battle of (Britain | Moscow).

This would be immersive and fun, and doable with today's client, server, and bandwidth tech.

[catito14]

I'm all for MMO as long as it's optional.

The way i see it, the best business model is the one that doesn't infuriate the users. And since users get infuriated when they have no choice on certain things, but they all like different things, it's best to have options.

If it was my decision and it was doable, i would do it like this:

CoD is the first sim in the series.

BoM is the second sim, playable as standalone or merged with CoD.

The main game engine is the same, so improvements in that aspect carry over across all titles.

So far, it's the same as the previous IL2 series model.

Then, here comes the optional bit: people can have servers like the ones we have now, or pay a monthly fee to play on the company servers which will presumably have better scenarios and/or beefier hardware.

This way, if i want to play on the MMO servers i can pay the fee, but if i want to i can still fly on the community servers.

As long as the MMO model doesn't limit the amount of control we have over how we play, i don't care. So, either give us the above option or make the MMO sim a completely separate release based on the same engine. Forcing the users down a one way street is always the worst possible choice.

+100000 , completely agree with you!! (i hope the 1C´s guys take note of this, i think, this post is the resume of the desire of most of the community)

Regards

[alado]

+100000 , completely agree with you!! (i hope the 1C´s guys take note of this, i think, this post is the resume of the desire of most of the community)

Regards
como viene siendo habitual, el deseo de la comunidad a 1c le importa un pimiento. Nos han usado como alpha tester de pago, y si han sacado el último parche no ha sido porque le importa la comunidad, sino simplemente por que a ellos les interesaba. Solo han querido los logs de las caidas al escritorio, ya que necesitan saber el porqué de las mismas, para lanzar el mmo mas o menos estable.

En fin, esperemos a ver, y démosle un enésimo voto de confianza, pero la cosa pinta muy mal.

[Lurker_71]

Then, here comes the optional bit: people can have servers like the ones we have now, or pay a monthly fee to play on the company servers which will presumably have better scenarios and/or beefier hardware.

This way, if i want to play on the MMO servers i can pay the fee, but if i want to i can still fly on the community servers.



I'm guessing they would never allow free servers to compete against their pay-to-play company servers.

MMO announcement is very bad news for offline players, as it implies maddox games have little intention to allot resources to fix the AI/Radio commands (and other aspects of the game valuable to offliners), since these are not common or relevant to the MMO, which I believe is the ultimate direction this series is taking.

[David198502]

I'm guessing they would never allow free servers to compete against their pay-to-play company servers.

MMO announcement is very bad news for offline players, as it implies maddox games have little intention to allot resources to fix the AI/Radio commands (and other aspects of the game valuable to offliners), since these are not common or relevant to the MMO, which I believe is the ultimate direction this series is taking.

well, thats pretty obvious unfortunately....
one and a half years after release, and the radio commands still not work,or are useless, and needed commands are not there....AI is worse than in 1946, even if you try to tweak them....
i was enjoying offline missions in 1946 as well...but cliffs almost forces one to fly online.it gets boring and annoying real fast if one plays offline missions.

Edit: 1946 current AI with 4.11.1 is very challenging though!if they really were interested in improving AI, i dont understand, why they dont talk to Team Daidalos....cant be that hard to implement 1946s AI into Cliffs.or at least use the same approach to it.

[O_Smiladon]

Who knows what the will do..

And frankly i am over all of it..this whole thing is becoming a yawn fest.

I really hope they work it out. but i think they are flogging a dead horse with this one.

If i am proven wrong, all good and well i will be the first to eat humble pie

but if they start charging for things like community severs with beefer this and that, then they will loose money because there will be only a few of you fanboys who will pay for it.

Every one i talked to about CLOD say they are looing faith in whats happening with this sim.

As I said if i am proven wrong (which i hope so) i will eat humble pie.

see you all on the flip side

O_Smiladon

[JG53Frankyboy]

I'm guessing they would never allow free servers to compete against their pay-to-play company servers.

MMO announcement is very bad news for offline players, as it implies maddox games have little intention to allot resources to fix the AI/Radio commands (and other aspects of the game valuable to offliners), since these are not common or relevant to the MMO, which I believe is the ultimate direction this series is taking.

indeed! we realy have to wait the announced official note about this MMO thing if it will REPLACE the actual known gametype or if it will be something additional. In the moment we are just in deep fog of infofragments IMO.

I personally would not be surprised if they say this 'Battle of Moskau' will be the MMO.....

[csThor]

I very much doubt that the MMO will replace the current theme-based releases. It'll probably run parallel to them. But:

The question you raised WRT the online mode of the releases vs the MMO environment is very valid. I hope the 1C management is not going to curtail the current possibilities for community-managed servers in favor of its own MMO project, but I'm afraid - given the past lack of gameplay elements in all MG releases - they will since I don't see them producing anything so captivating that people will pay for the MMO services. The numbers argument alone won't work IMO.

[furbs]

Of course it wont work, pretty much everyone knows it. Luthier is clutching at straws, trying to fend off the money men. The COD engine is poorly suited to a MMO, it barely handles what we have now, let alone trying to better the star of MMO's Wargaming.net, makers of "World of Tanks" who are now already in beta of "World of Airplanes".

Wargaming have years of experience of producing MMO's that work perfectly and are massively successful at what they do, the numbers of people paying and playing prove it.
Almost 200,000 playing most nights, and that's just the European server, add to that the US, Russian and Chinese servers and you have prob well over 500,000 people playing each day.

COD has about 60 max playing at one time, that's right 60!

You think COD is going to pull them away with the COD engine? dream on.

COD has failed in its development, its release and post release, BOM will also fail if handled the same way, the money men know it.
COD has been released now over 15 months and its still in a poor alpha state with almost nothing added and lots of problems.

Luthier has had to try something, and this is where we are now.

IL2 online MMO? it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

[csThor]

Furbs ... with all due respect ... but are you really thinking this MMO idea is Luthier's? If so then ROFL. ;)
I think this is the "money men" - as you call them - who have produced that idea from the depths of their collective ideas hat. 1C even installed a dedicated "online services department" (not just for this MMO but in general) so I guess this is a corporation-wide trend to develop such products.

[O_Smiladon]

Of course it wont work, pretty much everyone knows it. Luthier is clutching at straws, trying to fend off the money men. The COD engine is poorly suited to a MMO, it barely handles what we have now, let alone trying to better the star of MMO's Wargaming.net, makers of "World of Tanks" who are now already in beta of "World of Airplanes".

Wargaming have years of experience of producing MMO's that work perfectly and are massively successful at what they do, the numbers of people paying and playing prove it.
Almost 200,000 playing most nights, and that's just the European server, add to that the US, Russian and Chinese servers and you have prob well over 500,000 people playing each day.

COD has about 60 max playing at one time, that's right 60!

You think COD is going to pull them away with the COD engine? dream on.

COD has failed in its development, its release and post release, BOM will also fail if handled the same way, the money men know it.
COD has been released now over 15 months and its still in a poor alpha state with almost nothing added and lots of problems.

Luthier has had to try something, and this is where we are now.

IL2 online MMO? it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

You have hit the nail on the head there furbs mate

[ElAurens]

Furbs ... with all due respect ... but are you really thinking this MMO idea is Luthier's? If so then ROFL. ;)
I think this is the "money men" - as you call them - who have produced that idea from the depths of their collective ideas hat. 1C even installed a dedicated "online services department" (not just for this MMO but in general) so I guess this is a corporation-wide trend to develop such products.

Exactly.

Brought to you by the same folks that forced Steam on the project and helped delay development and the release too.

[adonys]

guys, I don't want to shoot your horses.. but I'm almost sure that when 1C & MG are talking about "MMO", they are only talking about the MMO payment model: a monthly fee everyone has to pay in order to can play the game. I'm pretty sure the game & gameplay will remain roughly the same (ie as "good" as it is atm).

Also, this doesn't sound so bad for offliners as you would think: due to the nature of the game (a ww2 sim) and its niche market, they HAVE to add some development for the AI in order to fill the persistent battlefield when the players are not there. you can't have a war happening around you with only a hundred of players online. that's what's missing atm in IL2CoD, and that's what will miss in this "online" version too.

If they really think about going into the MMO gameplay model, they're over: they were not able to pull this off as it is, going into the much more complicated MMO programming issues (on-fly server load balancing, etc, etc) would be like shooting themselves in their own foot..

thing is, no matter which way they'll go with this, War Thunder is already 1-2 years ahead of them with this: War Thunder IS playing like a MMO atm (battles are instanced dungeons, while the campaign mode is the persistent battlefield).. I see rough seas ahead for our dear IL2 series, unfortunately :(

[furbs]

Furbs ... with all due respect ... but are you really thinking this MMO idea is Luthier's? If so then ROFL. ;)
I think this is the "money men" - as you call them - who have produced that idea from the depths of their collective ideas hat. 1C even installed a dedicated "online services department" (not just for this MMO but in general) so I guess this is a corporation-wide trend to develop such products.

Well mate, Luthier brought us "SpitGirl" and told us to "trust him on it" so all bets are off. :)

Who knows where the idea came from, were just guessing, but if COD had been a success, i dont think we would be talking about a MMO do you?

[csThor]

Well mate, Luthier brought us "SpitGirl" and told us to "trust him on it" so all bets are off. :)
Which is why I wonder how 1C expects to draw anyone from community servers. MG wouldn't know good gameplay if it bit them in the hinder.

Who knows where the idea came from, were just guessing, but if COD had been a success, i dont think we would be talking about a MMO do you?
Not so fast. I remember Oleg talking about such ideas way back (when Il-2 was in its infancy). He probably tried to sell the idea of a new engine by mentioning such possibilities and the thought has stuck with the "money men". That's IMO the most likely scenario.

[furbs]

Which is why I wonder how 1C expects to draw anyone from community servers. MG wouldn't know good gameplay if it bit them in the hinder.


Not so fast. I remember Oleg talking about such ideas way back (when Il-2 was in its infancy). He probably tried to sell the idea of a new engine by mentioning such possibilities and the thought has stuck with the "money men". That's IMO the most likely scenario.

Yes that's true, i had forgot that. Its prob a mixture of all these things mate, oh to be a fly on the wall in the meetings. :grin:

[Buchon]

With all the respect Furbs ...

There nothing that Maddox can made that can´t be bashed by you, in fact everything is bashed by you.

But ... bashing the SpitGirl ? ... man ... that´s very low :cry:

[furbs]

With all the respect Furbs ...

There nothing that Maddox can made that can´t be bashed by you, in fact everything is bashed by you.

But ... bashing the SpitGirl ? ... man ... that´s very low :cry:

Me? bashing Spitgirl? Dont be so disgusting Blackadder!

[SlipBall]

Me? bashing Spitgirl? Dont be so disgusting Blackadder!


I feel the same way, I wish that they would leave out those childish extras.

[adonys]

it was just a try to bring new blood, new players from outside the sim niche, to the game.

unfortunately, it was not so well done.. it wasn't even the best way.. there were so many good stories which could have been told..

you can't blame them for the spitgirl, as it haven't done any harm to the sim itself.

[Luftwaffepilot]

you can't blame them for the spitgirl, as it haven't done any harm to the sim itself.

It's a shame that time and resources (photoshoot with real girl, etc) were wasted on a "feature" nobody needs and wants when the core game itself is in such a poor state.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

With all the respect Furbs ...

There nothing that Maddox can made that can´t be bashed by you, in fact everything is bashed by you.

But ... bashing the SpitGirl ? ... man ... that´s very low :cry:
Agreed 100%

Just about every game maker has included some sort of 'easter egg' in their games

Ill never forget MicroProse's Pacific Air War 1942. On the pacific map there was this 'extra' island.. And if you flew out to it.. You would see the boat from Gillgan's island and recive radio messages from the professor!

As a guy who does alot of programing (mostly embeded stuff and WSMR utilities) I know there are 'down times' where you are waiting for this or that and can not continue with what your doing until you recie this or that update from some other programer.. So instead of sitting on your hands you do 'other' things. This is where most if not all 'easter egg' stuff comes from

So to try and paint 1C as the first game maker to do this is just silly as all get out

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Not so fast. I remember Oleg talking about such ideas way back (when Il-2 was in its infancy). He probably tried to sell the idea of a new engine by mentioning such possibilities and the thought has stuck with the "money men". That's IMO the most likely scenario.
Agreed 100%

[adonys]

It's a shame that time and resources (photoshoot with real girl, etc) were wasted on a "feature" nobody needs and wants when the core game itself is in such a poor state.

it wasn't like they've spent weeks working on that :)

[Sokol1]

Ill never forget MicroProse's Pacific Air War 1942. On the pacific map there was this 'extra' island.. And if you flew out to it.. You would see the boat from Gillgan's island and recive radio messages from the professor!


IEN Warbirds (Online Pay2Play) Godzilla:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/warbirdseastereggs/egg-godzillainwater-wb111-3.gif

IEN Warbirds Gilligan's Island dinossaur

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/warbirdseastereggs/egg-gilligansisland4.jpg

:)

Sokol1

[mazex]

So, for the umpteenth time in this thread. Back on topic...

Fresh Google Translate (Yoda talk) from Sukhoi today (2012-06-04) by B6 (I changed "WT" to CloD below and put in some linefeeds):

In connection with the next Wave of alarmist rumors repeat (as an Official Representative), three Basic facts about CloD:

1) We Will continue to work on a patch for CloD and the Engine, in spite of the announcement and Development of the sequel

2) to Develop CloD, Creating New content, We do not plan to

3) The output of the Su-26 and KFOR OFFICIALLY Currently Has not Been canceled

Nice! I had given up on the Su-26... And what the heck is KFOR? SDK?

[SiThSpAwN]

If it is the SDK and it has been canceled, that will be a pretty big blow I think...

[mazex]

If it is the SDK and it has been canceled, that will be a pretty big blow I think...

Train you Yoda speak you have to my glass half empty friend :) You missed a "not" in a weird place :)


3) The output of the Su-26 and KFOR OFFICIALLY Currently Has not Been canceled

[SiThSpAwN]

Train you Yoda speak you have to my glass half empty friend :) You missed a "not" in a weird place :)

Paranoia reigns supreme lol....

DOH!

[SlipBall]

Agreed 100%

Just about every game maker has included some sort of 'easter egg' in their games

Ill never forget MicroProse's Pacific Air War 1942. On the pacific map there was this 'extra' island.. And if you flew out to it.. You would see the boat from Gillgan's island and recive radio messages from the professor!




Would you have preferred Ginger or Maryanne.. or maybe Mrs. Howell.. hummm:cool:

[philip.ed]

I'll translate: CloD is being abandoned, only to be improved collaterally with what ever changes happen to BoM (be it good or bad). If the SDK is released, it will be up to the community to improve CloD.

Nothing new. And note that whilst my tone sounds harsh, it's the stone cold fact. CloD is being abandoned: no more work is being done on the Battle of Britain. At least BoB2 (which suffered similar problems as CloD did at the beginning) had an awesome campaign right from the start. For offline flyers this is pretty awful. Don't make a game if you're not passionate about it.

[robtek]

All this silly talk about a abandoned CloD.

CloD will be patched to work as announced in almost all aspects.

Some stuff announced with CloD will be fixed with the sequel, when merged with CloD the status announced on release will be reached.

So CloD isn't "abandoned" but still directly and indirectly worked on.

With the SDK third parties can and will fill the missing spaces for the BoB, and that is not only the "community", which mostly would really have to struggle to reach the detail level already present, but companies selling high quality content.

[FS~looksharp]

All this silly talk about a abandoned CloD.

CloD will be patched to work as announced in almost all aspects.

Some stuff announced with CloD will be fixed with the sequel, when merged with CloD the status announced on release will be reached.

So CloD isn't "abandoned" but still directly and indirectly worked on.

With the SDK third parties can and will fill the missing spaces for the BoB, and that is not only the "community", which mostly would really have to struggle to reach the detail level already present, but companies selling high quality content.

Well said

[philip.ed]

All this silly talk about a abandoned CloD.

CloD will be patched to work as announced in almost all aspects.

Some stuff announced with CloD will be fixed with the sequel, when merged with CloD the status announced on release will be reached.

So CloD isn't "abandoned" but still directly and indirectly worked on.

With the SDK third parties can and will fill the missing spaces for the BoB, and that is not only the "community", which mostly would really have to struggle to reach the detail level already present, but companies selling high quality content.

No, you're half wrong. It is only being worked on indirectly: nothing has been said to suggest there will be direct work done to CloD. No campaigns added, no skin-packs included: nada. Nothing. Zero. The indirect effects will hopefully benefit the sim, but this will only be graphical, and won't include terrain features (unless they really overhaul the use of speed-tree).

For a BoB fan like me, this is a pretty dire situation. It's been said a lot, but I waited a long time for this game and it is sad to see it left like this.
If you look at what has been added to the sim by the dev team, there isn't a lot at all. It's like buying a game and you can only complete 1/4 of it. The sequel might be better rounded, and have indirect impacts on the look of the former, but you won't officially be allowed to complete it.

Indeed, what kind of business model is it to let the community finish the job for you? I say roll on the SDK, but the community will be doing a lot of work to CloD which should have been done in the first place. The team have laid the foundations for something epic. They need to understand they have every potential to produce a series, like Il-2, which will be around for decades.

[tintifaxl]

CloD will be patched to work as announced in almost all aspects.

Some stuff announced with CloD will be fixed with the sequel, when merged with CloD the status announced on release will be reached.



We will see if and when it happens.

And I will not buy BoM, if they haven't fixed: Radio comms, Brit's planes FM, Ju-88 Gyro, JU-87 dive siren and map bugs.

But that's just me.

[Chivas]

Just more hysteria. If they post a picture of a eastern front game, the knee jerk reaction is they've canceled work on COD. If they mention making an MMO, the knee jerk reaction is they've canceled, the Sequels and are only going to work on the MMO.

The fact is the game engine was designed to do a number of different ventures. There is no way in hell they have stopped work on COD and Sequels for a hopeful pay day two years or more from now with an MMO. The other fact is there will be no MMO, or Sequels unless the the game engine is fixed.

Saying the development of COD has stopped is just plain stupid. Everything the development does to the fix the game engine, FM engine, DM engine, AI, Commands, Water, Clouds, Particle effects, Dynamic Weather system will effect COD.

They will not be building further campaigns for COD, but will fix the game engine and triggers so that it will be easier for third parties and modders to make very effective campaigns.

[Meusli]

then dont watch it, simple

Sorry, I came of as a bit of a prick then. No offence meant.

[catito14]

robtek and philip.ed, do you work for 1C?? It´s amazing the way that you talk, with that security, i want to believe that at least you have somebody known who works into the project who telling you about 1C´s plans ....

[SlipBall]

Just more hysteria. If they post a picture of a eastern front game, the knee jerk reaction is they've canceled work on COD. If they mention making an MMO, the knee jerk reaction is they've canceled, the Sequels and are only going to work on the MMO.

The fact is the game engine was designed to do a number of different ventures. There is no way in hell they have stopped work on COD and Sequels for a hopeful pay day two years or more from now with an MMO. The other fact is there will be no MMO, or Sequels unless the the game engine is fixed.

Saying the development of COD has stopped is just plain stupid. Everything the development does to the fix the game engine, FM engine, DM engine, AI, Commands, Water, Clouds, Particle effects, Dynamic Weather system will effect COD.

They will not be building further campaigns for COD, but will fix the game engine and triggers so that it will be easier for third parties and modders to make very effective campaigns.


Fair enough Chivas...but it is the lack of information that causes the hysteria, they should give some progression feed back weekly. "This week we accomplished............and now our attention is on......" :grin:...this should be in statement form, no questions/answer session

[ACE-OF-ACES]

but it is the lack of information that causes the hysteria, they should give some progression feed back weekly. "This week we accomplished............and now our attention is on......" :grin:
I don't know if that would even do it..

Based on this forum I think it is safe to say no amount of information will do the trick.. Because the one thing this forum has proved to be true about human nature is..

You can please some of the people some of the time..
All of the people some of the time..
Some of the people all of the time..
But you can never please all of the people all of the time!

[klem]

I'll translate: CloD is being abandoned, only to be improved collaterally with what ever changes happen to BoM (be it good or bad). If the SDK is released, it will be up to the community to improve CloD.

Nothing new. And note that whilst my tone sounds harsh, it's the stone cold fact. CloD is being abandoned: no more work is being done on the Battle of Britain. At least BoB2 (which suffered similar problems as CloD did at the beginning) had an awesome campaign right from the start. For offline flyers this is pretty awful. Don't make a game if you're not passionate about it.

You don't need to translate, its already done by someone else but you should get a new translator and/or comprehension explainer:

1) We Will continue to work on a patch for CloD and the Engine, in spite of the announcement and Development of the sequel

2) to Develop CloD, Creating New content, We do not plan to

3) The output of the Su-26 and KFOR OFFICIALLY Currently Has not Been canceled

It is new content for CoD that will not be developed. That doesn't mean new content has been abandoned because it was never planned or promised and therefore does not exist to be abandoned either in practice or in concept.

[philip.ed]

It is the new content that is necessary to make it a realistic simulation of the Battle of Britain. At the moment it is a channel scrap.

So OK, let's say the game benefits from engine updates and whatnot, will the radio commands sound any better? Will the RAF decals get any better? Will there be any more flyables? No, is the answer. Posts from Luthier reveal this. No more flyables have been planned: no additional content, as you point out, has been planned.

This is abandonment. As an offline user the game is barely what I expected. I fly BoB2 more for the enjoyment. Yes graphical changes are lovely, but for me not in the right places. Chivas, again you are selective in your approach. Graphical changes will not make the landscape any better. No nice hedgerows or anything. England and France aren't Russia.

I'm sorry Klem, but that argument doesn't hold water. The pre-conception up until months after release was that CloD would be the first in a series of expansions. With the team's dedication to accuracy (and my e-mails with Oleg show this) I had every inclination the team were going to deliver something unbeatable; I didn't think they'd release it, patch it so it worked (with one graphical rewrite and a few patches benefiting i and adding to the game) and then leave it. From their past attitude to achieving the best, it is abandonment of this aspect of the series. They're leaving the game to never improve it again. With your suggestion in mind, if you had a child but never promised to care for it, it wouldn't be abandonment if you walked out on it. That's ridiculous. When you attempt to produce something and don't see it finished, it is abandonment whether you want to admit it or not.

I'm happy for them to work on BoM, but their position would be a lot more credible if they had CloD polished to the gem it could be, with the relevant Sim-HQ second look review saying how far the sim has come along.

[kendo65]

To be honest Klem, I think Philip is saying pretty much the same thing:

2) We do not plan to develop new content for CloD [rewritten for clarity]

is effectively the same as

"CloD is being abandoned, only to be improved collaterally with what ever changes happen to BoM"

People may disagree with the use of the word 'abandoned', but it is a fact that in game terms COD will be left in a pretty half-assed state. Although there will be general improvements to the engine with BOM that will also benefit COD, that will not be sufficient to turn COD into the full-fledged Battle of Britain simulation that many of us had been so excited about for years.

Without further dedicated content COD is destined to remain an empty shell as a Battle of Britain simulation. Unfortunately, over the last six months, I have been slowly coming to accept that the game that I was so excited about for so long is really not going to be realised. There is still the habit of checking in for latest news and word on the patch, but it doesn't mean that much to me any more because the underlying vision and potential as a Battle Of Britain sim/game/recreation will not be reached.

I continue to hope that some time in the future the community may finish the job that the devs couldn't (or wouldn't). Until that happens I don't see myself playing it much.

The series as a whole still has potential to be really special and I hope with a new theatre that they can finally get it together. I still get excited about the prospect of dynamic weather, etc, etc; but as an immersive, exciting recreation of a pilot's experience of the Battle of Britain COD is a dead duck.

And I do feel very let down and disappointed about that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My post written before I read Philip's latest. That we're both expressing nearly identical feelings says something I think. Something else - neither of us are your much caricatured, heard about the game last week and thought I'd give it a go, 2-week, rent-a-whine merchants either. Both of us were hugely excited by this game for a long time before it's release.

[Chivas]

It is the new content that is necessary to make it a realistic simulation of the Battle of Britain. At the moment it is a channel scrap.

So OK, let's say the game benefits from engine updates and whatnot, will the radio commands sound any better? Will the RAF decals get any better? Will there be any more flyables? No, is the answer. Posts from Luthier reveal this. No more flyables have been planned: no additional content, as you point out, has been planned.

This is abandonment. As an offline user the game is barely what I expected. I fly BoB2 more for the enjoyment. Yes graphical changes are lovely, but for me not in the right places. Chivas, again you are selective in your approach. Graphical changes will not make the landscape any better. No nice hedgerows or anything. England and France aren't Russia.

I'm sorry Klem, but that argument doesn't hold water. The pre-conception up until months after release was that CloD would be the first in a series of expansions. With the team's dedication to accuracy (and my e-mails with Oleg show this) I had every inclination the team were going to deliver something unbeatable; I didn't think they'd release it, patch it so it worked (with one graphical rewrite and a few patches benefiting i and adding to the game) and then leave it. From their past attitude to achieving the best, it is abandonment of this aspect of the series. They're leaving the game to never improve it again. With your suggestion in mind, if you had a child but never promised to care for it, it wouldn't be abandonment if you walked out on it. That's ridiculous. When you attempt to produce something and don't see it finished, it is abandonment whether you want to admit it or not.

I'm happy for them to work on BoM, but their position would be a lot more credible if they had CloD polished to the gem it could be, with the relevant Sim-HQ second look review saying how far the sim has come along.

"Chivas, again you are selective in your approach. Graphical changes will not make the landscape any better. No nice hedgerows or anything. England and France aren't Russia."

I'm being selective?? Its you that being selective. I mentioned alot more than Graphical changes. As far as graphical changes go, there will be map making tools that should allow people to update the COD map, if that doesn't happen modders will change the map anyway with removal of trees and the addition of hedgerows. As far as aircraft go, and skins go there are enough aircraft to make historical missions for COD now, and you will be able to add other aircraft and skins as they become available thru the sequels, third parties, and modders.

IF the new IL-2 game engine is fixed. In a few years you will not recognize COD, just as BOB WOV slowly got fixed with the developers Merlin Engine, BDG group, and modders. The new IL-2 engine has the capability to far surpass anything in BOB WOV except for playing as the head of Luftwaffe or RAF which most people don't want to do anyway.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

To be honest Klem, I think Philip is saying pretty much the same thing:

2) We do not plan to develop new content for CloD [rewritten for clarity]

is effectively the same as

"CloD is being abandoned, only to be improved collaterally with what ever changes happen to BoM"
Abandoned the same way IL-2 Forgotten Battles was abandoned..

As in once they made the sequel (that included IL-2 Forgotten Battles) the support (patches, new content, free updates of planes, maps, etc) moved to the sequel.

Put another way 1C did not continue to provide support (patches, new content, free updates of planes, maps, etc) for IL-2 Forgotten Battles once the sequel to IL-2 Forgotten Battles came out.

Which is the method 1C has said they are going to use with CoD on several ocations..

Yet a hand full of people 'choose' to ignore that fact.

[FG28_Kodiak]

Some people don't understand the difference between content and engine. Cliffs of Dover uses a modular system, there is the core engine and the bob content at the moment, but it should not be the problem to add a BoM content (Map, Groundunits and Planes) to the core engine. Even if there is a MMO based on the CloD-engine, they can use the Map, Groundunits and Planes independent from it in a sequel. The only way to get the development cost of the CloD-engine back, is to publish new addition for it.

[mazex]

This thread is of amazingly low discipline. Yesterday i posted some fresh stuff from Sukhoi that actually contained some information that was interesting, like the fact thay the Su-26 is NOT forgotten or out of scope from CloD.

What happens? The same people just keep on their never ending yapping about stuff we have heard thousands of times or personal attacks... If someone comes to this thread to find out if there are any new tidbits of information from Russia they will never find it.

/mazex

[FG28_Kodiak]

Hm, what does KFOR mean?
Blacksix? or any other of our russian friends?

[robtek]

here it is:D

http://www.nato.int/kfor/

Didn't know they were planning that far in the future :D :D :D

[BlackSix]

hm, what does kfor mean?
Blacksix? Or any other of our russian friends?

sdk

[FG28_Kodiak]

Thanks :grin:

[klem]

To be honest Klem, I think Philip is saying pretty much the same thing:

2) We do not plan to develop new content for CloD [rewritten for clarity]

is effectively the same as

"CloD is being abandoned, only to be improved collaterally with what ever changes happen to BoM"

People may disagree with the use of the word 'abandoned', but it is a fact that in game terms COD will be left in a pretty half-assed state. Although there will be general improvements to the engine with BOM that will also benefit COD, that will not be sufficient to turn COD into the full-fledged Battle of Britain simulation that many of us had been so excited about for years.

Without further dedicated content COD is destined to remain an empty shell as a Battle of Britain simulation. Unfortunately, over the last six months, I have been slowly coming to accept that the game that I was so excited about for so long is really not going to be realised. There is still the habit of checking in for latest news and word on the patch, but it doesn't mean that much to me any more because the underlying vision and potential as a Battle Of Britain sim/game/recreation will not be reached.

I continue to hope that some time in the future the community may finish the job that the devs couldn't (or wouldn't). Until that happens I don't see myself playing it much.

The series as a whole still has potential to be really special and I hope with a new theatre that they can finally get it together. I still get excited about the prospect of dynamic weather, etc, etc; but as an immersive, exciting recreation of a pilot's experience of the Battle of Britain COD is a dead duck.

And I do feel very let down and disappointed about that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My post written before I read Philip's latest. That we're both expressing nearly identical feelings says something I think. Something else - neither of us are your much caricatured, heard about the game last week and thought I'd give it a go, 2-week, rent-a-whine merchants either. Both of us were hugely excited by this game for a long time before it's release.

Well there's a big gap between
We do not plan to develop new content for CloD
and
CloD is being abandoned, only to be improved collaterally with what ever changes happen to BoM"

That gap is that the current (not new) content of CoD which isn't working is to be fixed which includes both CoD specific and core areas and I expect that to include both on-line and off-line play, FMB, etc..

Bottom line for CoD is we won't know if current content fixes have been abandoned until they say they have stopped working on it.

However I did say in another (MMO) post that CoD (and BoM) can never be the battle we all wanted it to be. As with IL-2 '46, sheer scale prevents it which is what fed into the discussions about a MMO. So yes, that is where CoD will fail to be a representation of the BoB. If it's scope that you and philip are saying has been abandoned, you are right in a way but it was never promised. Oleg said from early dev days that it wouldn't support many more players than IL-2 '46. That was a huge disappointment for me at the time but I've known that for a few years. We've know for a long time that SoW would only be like an updated polished version of IL-2 '46 with the same expansion release philosophy. We all put our own interpretation on what the CoD representation of the BoB would be and we have all been disappointed in that sense. I don't recall Oleg saying anything magical about gameplay, all we saw was neat(?) grass, detailed vehicles and better planes/graphics etc..

Fact is, if we want a good historical representation of the BoB we probably have to go somewhere else for it. But it may not match the FMs DMs and Graphics of CoD (once they're fixed :lol: )

We're about to take part in a SOWC campaign and its a source of frustration to me that we will only be able to accommodate about 90 players which means just one decently supported raid without the wider tactical concerns of multiple raids, control and resource management etc.. But for some tme now we've known that is how it would be.

[philip.ed]

Klem, my point is that CloD is, after the next patch, only to be developed collaterally which I perceive (as does Kendo) as abandonment. Unless the next patch provides the immersion, missions, environment to really simulate the BoB it's still a relatively empty shell in my books. Fun can be had but it doesn't sustain me. As some have pointed out, Il-2 is similar but the mods have done wonders for it.

AoA mentions that the original Il-2 was similar. Perhaps, but then I remember being vividly entertained. Why? Because there was nothing better: it was the best on the market bar none. One would have expected such a safe development strategy to remain, but for the new game to be a lot better than that released more than a decade ago. Certainly it's a huge technological leap forward (CloD's like an ice-berg: there's a lot under the surface which is untapped) but apart from being Forgotton-Battles, set in the BoB with brass-knobs on is it anything more?

I agree completely with the rest of your post, Klem. My point really is that after the next patch the sim itself is being directly abandoned and perhaps later being handed over to the community. This negates Chivas's point that the SDK will allow expansion. I'm not doubting that at all. I'm simply stating that the development team (unless they produced a sub team) will not be expanding the Battle of Britain further directly. And the indirect changes will not add the meat to sustain an offliner like me. Even if a dynamic campaign system is introduced, a community member will have to fill it out because the team won't be working on CloD directly.

This is why I hope BoM is a success. If the game expands, I can see a development team going back and working on CloD. The BoB is in a lot of people's interests and it would be foolish to not see it become the numero-uno sim representing this period.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

AoA mentions that the original Il-2 was similar. Perhaps
No perhaps about it..

Luither recently said CoD is going to follow the same development path as IL-2 did..

Where each sequel will include the previous version and at the same time add new features and content (maps, planes, etc).

That is the 1C 'way' of providing updates.. via sequels that include the previous version of the game and add more to it.

The 'other way' of providing updates is the RoF way.. where you pay for each and every update (planes, maps) separately.

[philip.ed]

I completely agree. But note that there is a lot of change in 10 years. 10 years ago CloD would have been a complete revelation, just as the original Il-2 was. It offered, as I said, everything over the competition. But in today's world CloD is hard to compare: once you've experienced the awesome graphics, it's relatively empty for an offline user like myself. And that's not because I am against the sim (heck I tried to help the team as much as possible to make it excellent by providing Oleg with research) so it is a shame for me to say this.

I think the business model is simple and effective. But it needs the original game to be well received first. The difference is that although the original was difficult to run on high settings, on the lowest it still offered a lot over the likes of CFS, Fighter Squadron, EAW et al. With CloD there are a lot of similar sims for being to go back to.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

But note that there is a lot of change in 10 years. 10 years ago CloD would have been a complete revelation, just as the original Il-2 was.
But Luither confirmed thier aproach with sequals has not changed.. Which was the topic at hand

If you want to talk about how software tools, video cards, PC, etc has changed over the past 10 years than you may want to start another thread on the topic? Just a thought.

[Force10]

Saying the developement strategies between IL-2 and COD are similar are just plain wrong. Less than a year after release, IL-2 had 6 patches and in those patches had added 17 more flyable planes among a host of other fixes and features. COD still hasn't delivered what they said was going to be in the box and have already said there will be no more planes released for it. What about the SU-26 stunt plane they were flogging before release and everyone was going to be able to test the flight model with? You can't compare the 2 for strategies. IL-2 had established a good deal of respect for the devs with the patches, added planes, and other stuff. COD has not given us anything to earn any level of trust or respect that would merit purchasing future products.

[philip.ed]

Saying the developement strategies between IL-2 and COD are similar are just plain wrong. Less than a year after release, IL-2 had 6 patches and in those patches had added 17 more flyable planes among a host of other fixes and features. COD still hasn't delivered what they said was going to be in the box and have already said there will be no more planes released for it. What about the SU-26 stunt plane they were flogging before release and everyone was going to be able to test the flight model with? You can't compare the 2 for strategies. IL-2 had established a good deal of respect for the devs with the patches, added planes, and other stuff. COD has not given us anything to earn any level of trust or respect that would merit purchasing future products.


Exactly the point I'm trying to make. Their overall goal seems similar (although the announcement of an MMO throws this into doubt) but the state of the games is completely different.
Indeed, the Russian conflict was relatively new territory for people and thus it's harder to tell if the campaigns are realistic enough. There were also no competitors in this theatre of operations. CloD is different as it has a host of sims as potential competition (even modded Il-2 can take away potential customers). Thus for them to move onto the next one, it would have needed to have cemented a good deal of respect which it hasn't, sadly.

[Force10]

In his "knee jerk reaction" defend at all costs mentality, sometimes Ace just twists the truth into something that doesn't make sense. I really think he should change his avatar to something like this:

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7516/avatar1ys.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/710/avatar1ys.jpg/)

[ACE-OF-ACES]

It is easy to spot the person that does not have an intellectual argument to address the topic at hand..

Just look for the guy that has to resort to attacking the messenger..

Why?

Because they know they can not attack the message! ;)

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Saying the developement strategies between IL-2 and COD are similar are just plain wrong.
Ah I see where you are confused..

Note I did not say the development strategies are the same as IL-2..

It was Luither than said the the development strategies are the same as IL-2, with regards to how they are going to handel sequals

Hope that helps!

[Force10]

Ah I see where you are confused..

Note I did not say the development strategies are the same as IL-2..

It was Luither than said the the development strategies are the same as IL-2, with regards to how they are going to handel sequals

Hope that helps!

Well then I guess they missed the part where to have a successful sequel, you shouldn't have a first title that is a joke and universally thought of as being short on support, features, and is basically the worst release in a decade. Someone is definitely confused...that's for sure.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Well then I guess they missed the part where to have a successful sequel, you shouldn't have a first title that is a joke and universally thought of as being short on support, features, and is basically the worst release in a decade. Someone is definitely confused...that's for sure.
Well I know calling it a joke is the thing to do for you and yours..

Which is fine, your welcome to your opinion

All in all I am just glad I was able to help you understand what it was Luither said wrt sequals

S!

[kendo65]

Abandoned the same way IL-2 Forgotten Battles was abandoned..

As in once they made the sequel (that included IL-2 Forgotten Battles) the support (patches, new content, free updates of planes, maps, etc) moved to the sequel.

...

The main difference is that Forgotten Battles and all the other titles were essentially complete and had achieved their (more limited) goals before the series moved forward.

The Battle of Britain was such a well-defined historical engagement with a distinctive atmosphere and varying strategic/tactical goals that any successful simulation needed to provide the capacity to recreate both individual engagements and give some feel of the overall campaign by including a career mode. The potential for exciting gameplay was HUGE.

There is good evidence that the developers goals for the game were to provide something along these lines. Luthier had a detailed (several hundred pages if I recall) design document for the planned dynamic campaign.

The enforced (?) early release and subsequent difficulties obviously killed any possibility of this being completed to schedule. We have instead got a threadbare, dryly technical simulation of the aircraft that took part in the battle flying over a mediocre (in my opinion) map of the area of operations. There is next to nothing in the way of gameplay, missions are incredibly few in number and limited in scope, the much-needed dynamic campaign is unfinished, historical atmosphere is negligible. The game fails totally in recreating any feeling of what it would have been like to take part in the Battle of Britain.

Compared to the original vision and any reasonable estimation of what a decent BOB sim should be able to do COD is woefully incomplete. And here is the main point - the fact that it is no longer the developer's intention to supply those missing elements does mean that the original vision and intention for COD has certainly been abandoned. We have the planes and a map. We don't have a decent BOB sim and we aren't going to get one.

Backdated game engine tweaks from BOM won't change that fact.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

The main difference is that Forgotten Battles and all the other titles were essentially complete and had achieved their (more limited) goals before the series moved forward.
So what part of 1C saying they are going to finish CoD before the sequal are you still struggling with?

[kendo65]

Did you even read my post?

If so you certainly didn't engage with any of the main points.

If you want to have a discussion about it then at least deal with the points raised instead of playing your usual games.

[Anders_And]

Lol im starting to think Ace of Aces is actually working for UbI and has been given the mission to ignore anything anything bad about the game and only claim the opposite... Some people just dont see the forrest for all the trees... Game is broken= fact. There is lack of support or intrest by the developers to fix it as fast as possible=fact.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Did you even read my post?
Not only read it but went as far as to quote it..

Hope that helps!

[kendo65]

I've stated my opinion already.

You're entitled to your point of view Aces.

Nothing more to say.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Lol im starting to think Ace of Aces is actually working for UbI and has been given the mission to ignore anything anything bad about the game and only claim the opposite... Some people just dont see the forrest for all the trees... Game is broken= fact. There is lack of support or intrest by the developers to fix it as fast as possible=fact.
With regards to the word FACT

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/19547673.jpg

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Nothing more to say.Promise?

[philip.ed]

AoA, they say they will finish with it. It's not a finished game by an offliners standards like mine and Kendo's certainly.

There's a big difference. Before you and Force started arguing, my last post corroborated what Kendo just wrote to show that the situation between Il-2 and CloD is quite different.

Here's the original GameSpot review: http://uk.gamespot.com/il-2-sturmovik/reviews/il-2-sturmovik-review-2829773/

Now look at CloD's: http://uk.gamespot.com/il-2-sturmovik-cliffs-of-dover/reviews/il-2-sturmovik-cliffs-of-dover-review-6308918/

The score has more than halved. So a sim that scores so low is worthy to proceed with? It's improved since then, but only so that it can run better and look better. The content that's been added is extremely minimal.

This, really, is our point. Unless this sim morphs into the perfect BoB sim with the next patch, the team's position with BoM won't be as tangible as it could have been. I really want BoM to do well. I think the SDK can solve a lot of issues, but you're fooling yourself if you believe that this sim is the finished product.

AoA, this discussion isn't about understanding Luthier's perception on the sequels. Everyone understands that. It's interpreting the situation and seeing how it really compares to the example Luthier uses, of Il-2, to show that actually the similarities are only clear at first glance, but fall apart under careful analysis.

[Force10]

Don't let Ace get to you folks. He is well practiced in the art of duochebaggery, and he ignores facts in a conversation and just chops out a quote that he can twist some sort of "I'm right" spin on. We all know COD is more or less a punchline rather than a way of life as it is for him. If he upsets you, just ignore his ludicrous comments, we all know he is grasping at straws while he and the sim he has been defending circles the drain with each anouncement.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

There's a big difference. Before you and Force started arguing, my last post corroborated what Kendo just wrote to show that the situation between Il-2 and CloD is quite different.
Again, if you want to change the topic at hand.. Be my guest

But my answer to you delt specifcally with the 'aproach' that 1C took with IL-2 with regards to sequals.. And how Luither said they plan on using the same 'aproach' with CoD

Where each sequal includes the previouse version of the game..

As in all the planes, maps, features, etc.

And the sequal adds to it (planes, maps, features, etc)

Hope that helps!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Don't let Ace get to you folks. He is well practiced in the art of duochebaggery, and he ignores facts in a conversation and just chops out a quote that he can twist some sort of "I'm right" spin on. We all know COD is more or less a punchline rather than a way of life as it is for him. If he upsets you, just ignore his ludicrous comments, we all know he is grasping at straws while he and the sim he has been defending circles the drain with each anouncement.
It is easy to spot the person that does not have an intellectual argument to address the topic at hand..

Just look for the guy that has to resort to attacking the messenger..

Why?

Because he knows he can not attack the message! ;)

[addman]

Wow! this thread has derailed so much they should rename it to "Rotten stuff from the dumpster".

[Ataros]

MMO may change the old add-on approach. But engine remains mostly the same probably. Hope for SDK.

[Force10]

It is easy to spot the person that does not have an intellectual argument to address the topic at hand.

How?


He keeps repeating himself....

[ACE-OF-ACES]

He keeps repeating himself....
Only becase you keep doing it

[klem]

Klem, my point is that CloD is, after the next patch, only to be developed collaterally which I perceive (as does Kendo) as abandonment. Unless the next patch provides the immersion, missions, environment to really simulate the BoB it's still a relatively empty shell in my books. Fun can be had but it doesn't sustain me. .......................
there's a lot under the surface which is untapped) but apart from being Forgotton-Battles, set in the BoB with brass-knobs on is it anything more?.............................
My point really is that after the next patch the sim itself is being directly abandoned and perhaps later being handed over to the community. This negates Chivas's point that the SDK will allow expansion. I'm not doubting that at all. I'm simply stating that the development team (unless they produced a sub team) will not be expanding the Battle of Britain further directly. And the indirect changes will not add the meat to sustain an offliner like me. Even if a dynamic campaign system is introduced, a community member will have to fill it out because the team won't be working on CloD directly.

This is why I hope BoM is a success. If the game expands, I can see a development team going back and working on CloD. The BoB is in a lot of people's interests and it would be foolish to not see it become the numero-uno sim representing this period.

Well I must admit to having a narrower view as I am only interested in on-line play. There I expect the devs to complete the aircraft (FMs, controls etc), sort out and complete the FMB and hopefully the rest will come from those terrific guys running the servers and building the mission maps. My regret is that we will never see large scale missions.

I understand what you mean about off-line play. I guess you have a point there if it is so bad. The truth is I played a couple of rounds of the career and got bored because for me the AI are just that, artificial, and I can't take them seriously no matter how good they are. Knowing I'm up against other real living pilots is what gives me my fix.

[philip.ed]

Again, if you want to change the topic at hand.. Be my guest

But my answer to you delt specifcally with the 'aproach' that 1C took with IL-2 with regards to sequals.. And how Luither said they plan on using the same 'aproach' with CoD

Where each sequal includes the previouse version of the game..

As in all the planes, maps, features, etc.

And the sequal adds to it (planes, maps, features, etc)

Hope that helps!

Aye, but the sequel to Il-2 extended the front, whereas BoM is going into new territory.

This thread has been derailed, but I was under the impression we were discussing the future as a whole.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Aye, but the sequel to Il-2 extended the front, whereas BoM is going into new territory.
Actually IL-2 sequels broke into new territory too over it's 10+ years..

In that new 'things' were added that did not exist in the original IL-2..

So even that analogy of yours does not apply

But keep digging I am sure you will find something!

But in doing so you will miss the whole point!

That being Luither said 1C's method of providing new features is to re-package the game into a new version (sequel) that includes the previous version of the game while adding new content (planes, maps, features, mission making tools, graphics card support, etc)

As in that is how they did it with IL-2 and that is how they plan on doing it with CoD

Where as other flight sims do it in different ways.. Some like warbirds charge monthly fees, and flight sims like RoF charge you for individual addons (planes, maps, scarf, etc)

At least that was the 'plan' at the time Luiter said it!

Should a large asteroid hit the earth next week I am sure the plan will have to change..

At which point you can rest assured that there will be a hand full of whiners floating in space complaining that the 1C plan for CoD never transpired as originally intended! ;)

[philip.ed]

You miss the point :rolleyes:

Forgotten Battles added to the Russian Front and gave it so much more substance. It improved a game that had already received glowing feedback.

This isn't happening with CloD. Moscow is not Britain or France. The point I am making is that for the forseeable future, the Battle of Britain has been abandoned by the dev team. If they were expanding the game to include the BoF and the later Rhubarbs and Circus's, I would agree with everything you are posting in an attempt to prove my posts wrong.

The point I am making is that on relative terms, the future of CloD is only following the same lines as Il-2, but it's not being done identically. If it was identical the next expansion would be in the same theatre of operations, and the team would ensure that theatre actually had some meat.

So keep weasling your way around. You might actually post something that can weigh up to my facts.

[Force10]

That being Luither said 1C's method of providing new features is to re-package the game into a new version (sequel) that includes the previous version of the game while adding new content (planes, maps, features, mission making tools, graphics card support, etc)

As in that is how they did it with IL-2 and that is how they plan on doing it with CoD


I'm not sure how they can "re-package the game into a new version" when they weren't able to properly "package" the original game into a functioning version. I would think all the talk of sequels and MMO's would have been better announcements if they had waited until they fixed the first game. As it stands right now, not very many are confident they have the chops to fix it and they have done nothing but used stall tactics instead of actually fixing much.

BTW: Nice pic Ace! If you need help learning how to post it properly without the mini thumbnail....let me know.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

You miss the point :rolleyes:
Hardly.. see following where I prove it

Forgotten Battles added to the Russian Front and gave it so much more substance. It improved a game that had already received glowing feedback.

This isn't happening with CloD.
omg...

So let me get this straight..

Your saying no sequal to CoD has been produced yet?

DUH!

But when 1C does produce a sequal, in this case the Russian Front, it will surly add more substance (planes, maps, features, updates, etc)

That is the point your missing, that you thought I missed

But keep digging!

I am here with a rope ready to pull you back into reality!

[ACE-OF-ACES]

I'm not sure how
QTF as in understatement of the year

[ElAurens]

I hesitate to wade into this, but I do feel the need to.

Our British friends (and others to be sure, myself included) are bitterly disappointed with CloD, and it is understandable. The Battle of Britain is their touchstone campaign of the entire war, or even of all time really. The RAF is an iconic service to this day because of their actions in the summer of 1940. It is a "sacred" thing and as such the hopes for it's portrayal in the new sim were at an amazingly high level.

Curiously, those of us on this side of the Atlantic had a similar experience with the expectations for the release of Pacific Fighters. The campaign in the Pacific is as "sacred" to us as the BoB is to our British cousins. And we were as let down by it's release as those fretting over CloD are today.

Amazing similarities abound...

Lack of knowledge of the events.

Lack of aircraft types.

Very poor campaigns for off line play.

And in the case of PF, bizarrely chosen maps, and glaring omissions in maps and other areas of content that left gaping holes in gameplay both offline and on.

I won't even get inot the NG issue.

At least CloD has the right map.

So... here we are.

Most of us are not happy to one degree or another.

I suspect that Luthier and the team are not very happy either.

We all have had our pet kicked in the gut by the suits at 1C, who chose to run Oleg off, and release the sim too early, and to add Steam and it's complications at the last minute.

Will beating each other up in the forum fix any of this?

No.

So why keep hammering away at each other like any of us are at fault?

Why?

[Force10]

QTF as in understatement of the year

Typical Ace....when he's stumped by a question or faced with facts he can't answer he goes to his trademark "chop". At least everybody can recognize the shear stupidity of his responses.

[Force10]

Amazing similarities abound...

Lack of knowledge of the events.

Lack of aircraft types.

Very poor campaigns for off line play.

And in the case of PF, bizarrely chosen maps, and glaring omissions in maps and other areas of content that left gaping holes in gameplay both offline and on.

I won't even get inot the NG issue.



Most of us are not happy to one degree or another.



Will beating each other up in the forum fix any of this?

No.

So why keep hammering away at each other like any of us are at fault?

Why?

Everyone understands this except Ace. He has stated in the past that he has got more than his money's worth...so apparently, he's ready to move on. He will continue to bash anyone that would like to play the sim they paid for and get more than an alpha for their money. Ace doesn't understand the value of a finished product, and he is basically the last of the vocal supporters.

[philip.ed]

Hardly.. see following where I prove it


omg...

So let me get this straight..

Your saying no sequal to CoD has been produced yet?

DUH!

But when 1C does produce a sequal, in this case the Russian Front, it will surly add more substance (planes, maps, features, updates, etc)

That is the point your missing, that you thought I missed

But keep digging!

I am here with a rope ready to pull you back into reality!

No, no, no!

I am talking about substance to the Battle of Britain! What part don't you understand?

Of course BoM is the sequel and will add more substance to the series.

But it will add nothing to the Battle of Britain.

Do I have to repeat myself again? Stop making yourself look stupid. Cliffs of Dover is the Battle of Britain, Battle of Moscow is the Russian Front.

The point I, and others, have been making is that the BoB aspect is being abandoned. No more campaigns, improved voice-packs or anything to improve it.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

He will continue to bash anyone that would like to play the sim they paid for and get more than an alpha for their money.
Pure gold.. The guy who has resorted to calling me names more than once in this thread alone says I am bashing people! Too funny! That or he thinks just because I don't agree with his glass half full view of the world I am bashing him as aposed to disagreeing with him

[Plt Off JRB Meaker]

...........Calm down dear:rolleyes:

[ACE-OF-ACES]

But it will add nothing to the Battle of Britain.
You don't know that!

The Brit's sold Spits to the USSR so chances are a new version of the Spit might be added in the Russian addon (figers crossed it is a 100 oct version) that could be used in a BoB mission

But one thing is for sure each and every sequal adds more to the BASELINE of the game engine..

So if not this sequal than the next may add something that can be used in a BoB campain!

For example, IL-2 Pacific Fighters added the PACIFIC! But at the same time it added Britt versions of the F4, F6 and F4u that could be used to simulate the usage of such planes in Brit carrier euro missions

What is so hard to understand about this?

[kendo65]

Good points there El Aurens. I suppose MG always tended to go for the technical engineering aspects of the flight-sim experience over the immersive gameplay elements even in the original il-2. Because of that I did have my doubts as to the depth of play that would be available with COD before release. I had hope though especially with talk of a dynamic campaign - until about two weeks before release. One difference with original il-2 is that the community filled the gap with countless single missions and immersive offline campaigns. Nothing on that scale as yet for COD.

Philip, I'd advise you to stop trying to convince Aces on any of this. You've expressed your honest opinion here. Anyone reading the forum can take it on board and make their own judgement of it. Don't make the mistake of thinking Aces is interested in any kind of real engagement or honest exchange of views on this. If you answer one of his points he will only substitute it with something else in the next post...and for the majority of open-minded people on the forum his views are irrelevant.

[philip.ed]

So we have a Spitfire 1B missing from the game. Were these used in the Russian front? Not that I'm aware of.

I can't think of any other spits that have been omitted, nor aircraft in CloD which could be used in Russia which will benefit my experience. A Hampden, a flyable Defiant etc would be gold. But not for the foreseeable future.

My point is that CloD itself is not exactly finished from an offline perspective. I want to the game to expand in as many avenues as possible, but BoM would most likely sell a lot better if CloD was finished first and had the credibility to show that the next game would be just as good. The case at hand is that we're hoping BoM won't be just as bad.

Note that in all my previous posts I have said time and time again that it's good the sim expands in this way. As you suggest it adds a lot to the previous titles.
But currently there is no proof that anything useful will be added to CloD to benefit it. Hence why it has been abandoned. If the next expansion was in the same theatre, it would allow them to add directly to it.

Now that's why the SDK could be so useful. Third parties might emerge to do the job many of us wish the team had done before.

Phew that took a long time to get across (and I've reworded this post about ten times now).

@Kendo. didn't see your post mate, but you're exactly right.

[von Brühl]

But how many rabbits will you have to kill to turn into tokens to upgrade to the new epic Spitfires?

[Chivas]

Saying the developement strategies between IL-2 and COD are similar are just plain wrong. Less than a year after release, IL-2 had 6 patches and in those patches had added 17 more flyable planes among a host of other fixes and features. COD still hasn't delivered what they said was going to be in the box and have already said there will be no more planes released for it. What about the SU-26 stunt plane they were flogging before release and everyone was going to be able to test the flight model with? You can't compare the 2 for strategies. IL-2 had established a good deal of respect for the devs with the patches, added planes, and other stuff. COD has not given us anything to earn any level of trust or respect that would merit purchasing future products.

The developers basic strategy is almost the same as the original series, except they planned to build tools for modders, and a more robust game engine to use in a number of different ventures. Still the basic strategy was to build a game engine and release a number of new theaters and aircraft based on that game engine. With patches inbetween to fix bugs and maybe add some new content.

This hasn't changed, except for one major setback. The sims game engine wasn't finished and working. This has thrown a major spanner in the works. If the game engine had been working everyone would have been happy and the next sequel would be just around the corner. IF the sim survives this setback you will see a succession of theaters, aircraft, tools for modders, and maybe even an MMO.

The one thing you are right about is the loss of respect by many in the forums, but that can easily be regain IF and When the game engine is fixed. Personally I'd rather they lost a little respect with a chance to regain it, than the cancellation of the sim.

[philip.ed]

The strategy is the same, but the situation is different. (As you rightly say, Chivas).

[ACE-OF-ACES]

The strategy is the same,
Is what I said

but the situation is different.
To which I say DUH