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Ali Fish
05-12-2011, 07:30 PM
Looks like i have mod #1 in progress

working on enhancing the colours on the default map.

This image is 2 images, on the left default on the right new textur colouring by me. same time of day same mission. looks better ?

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/th_69c7f75e.jpg (http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/69c7f75e.jpg)



http://i.imgur.com/F8n5cs.jpg (http://imgur.com/F8n5cl)

philip.ed
05-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Maybe a tad bit too dark, but a great start!
Is it possible for the trees/foliage to be a darker, murkier green?
Also, can fields have darker borders to show where hedgerows would be?

but very nice work. It's hard to gauge a full opinion without seeing it from a higher altitude.

David198502
05-12-2011, 07:51 PM
to be honest,the first second i looked at the right picture, i thought that it looked better.but the more i look at it, the more i feel it looks a bit too brown.so maybe something between those two pictures would be perfect.but thats of course only my opinion.
i know many people think that the colours are correct the way they are.i think that at low sun,the colours are great, but at midday they are a bit too green.

how did you do it?

Ali Fish
05-12-2011, 07:57 PM
yep agreed. BUT but but... this is the autumn pack you see \o/ only joking but thats my idea.

ill try just dropping the saturation next time and increase contrast a touch. suprisingly easy to do, once i get the correct colour change formula i want ill apply it to everything terrain based and it will bring a non intrusive mod to use at your descretion. so later on tonight i hope to have some nice comparisons. 8 main field textures between here and france, golf courses and all the independant airfield textures.


Maybe a tad bit too dark, but a great start!
Is it possible for the trees/foliage to be a darker, murkier green?
Also, can fields have darker borders to show where hedgerows would be?

but very nice work. It's hard to gauge a full opinion without seeing it from a higher altitude.

im trying to not get into the realms of artwork just yet. although i have played with a snow style layering effect generated from the original textures. but regards foliage yes it can all be changed, and its all contained in 1 file. not to mention the cartoony style grass can be re designed easily too. so....

i will change everything via te choosen colour formula you guys give me feedback on.

philip.ed
05-12-2011, 10:04 PM
How about a look through this (subjective, but maybe useful?)

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/v/kent/

Strike
05-12-2011, 10:30 PM
the first picture looks like midday, the last picture looks like dusk. I don't think the green is off. Just came from england yesterday, england is really lush and green this spring :)

Conte Zero
05-12-2011, 11:02 PM
looks much better and real to me, great work.

Ali Fish
05-12-2011, 11:18 PM
ok ive modded every assett now. sadly theres a mip mapping bug with the trees file which i had darkened. It produces an error on the console readback too. i have created a photoshop action file for modding the files in bulk ( an autumn and winter mod could be generated in minuites mwahahahha.)

here is where iam at. its subtle now. top pic is original lower the update. trying to create the same images is nigh on impossible lol. feedback ?

TIME= 09:00 settings:
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/53d7c96e.jpg
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/36619879.jpg

low shots which just seem crap in general.
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/74099495.jpg
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/28f02134.jpg

BTW i could so easily make this game look like WoP ? but i dont think so.

SYN_Per
05-12-2011, 11:33 PM
Looks great!

GuillermoZS
05-12-2011, 11:35 PM
ok ive modded every assett now. sadly theres a mip mapping bug with the trees file which i had darkened. i have created a photoshop action file for modding the files in bulk ( an autumn and winter mod could be generated in minuites mwahahahha.)

here is where iam at. its subtle now. top pic is original lower the update. trying to create the same images is night on impossible lol. feedback ?


low shots which just seem crap in general.


BTW i could so easily make this game look like WoP ? but i dont think so.

Excellent! You got the right color here IMO... when are you releasing this "patch"? :grin:

Ali Fish
05-12-2011, 11:46 PM
thanks ! not sure i'd call it a patch but i see your meaning lol.

not sure about releasing to quickly as everyone using this might intefere with the developers getting there necissary performance information etc, although my DXT profiles are similar, mip map levels the same too (asides the trees). so there shouldnt be a problem. discussing mods is one thing, releasing them at this time is another.
but we will see after a few more tweaks. what you recommend Near Miss ? last thing i want is to annoy any development processes etc. anway i think i want to bring out the contrast more and work some of my own art in there, ala hedge row darkening etc. !

156 meg worth of files, 66 meg in rar so far.


my next mod will be in the form not so much as a mod but a full template for the mkIIa spitfire. including all the panel lines, details of what the overlay parts are and new specular and normal maps. damage maps decails etc...that should be finished by tommorow \o/ i wont be happy untill i have a ficticious metalic spit showing how good these lighting effects really are.

Ze-Jamz
05-13-2011, 12:12 AM
Yes looks sweeet mate..nice work

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 12:59 AM
though id better test it in the evening time, low level light characteristics and i must say i just impressed myself lol. everything looks even better. dare is say with the default trees in the shots ,even they look better and more "part" of the world naturally. cant give comparison pics here, but these scenes feature better building integration with the scenery due to the changes, new grass colourings, and new darker foliage on the close tree lods. and a messier grass system around the airfield. even the clouds even mix in better with there light characteristics,

having probed further into the performance of this mod, i see no differences to vanilla scenery whatsoever. If the devs could give us our route to pack and unpack the mods without kegety's tools id be a hell of a greatfull..

Buildings along side the changes. default trees looks better ?
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/02347463.jpg

General shots.
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/4dbcb3a7.jpg
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/460a6b04.jpg

New foliage and grass colourings (not the best illustration),remeber the really yellow grass ?
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/67fa2f3b.jpg
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/fac797c5.jpg

new airfield- more dirtier unkept concept.
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/4a055bd6.jpg

Definetly going to go down the new artwork route with this too. an autumn/winter version without snow and all the green hue's should be good. Ohh yeah. so if you got any good aerial autumn shots of england pass them on for referencing.

Letum
05-13-2011, 01:27 AM
darker trees and thins will eb perfect. nice work.

Troll2k
05-13-2011, 01:44 AM
Will this work online?
Or will Steam boot and ban you?

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 01:45 AM
Will this work online?
Or will Steam boot and ban you?

No boot or ban here, but then i was not expecting either of the two possible outcomes. Its just a texture reload. Individual file sizes are the same.

just ran it online in those last pictures. on my own server, actually thats the only way that mission works. but i would like some testers for the online aspect and an ATI tester of the mod too.


can fields have darker borders to show where hedgerows would be?

do you have any examples of this, i can do it but without a model of the hedge it might not work to well,, ahhaahh. unless i add this idea as a raised area to the normal maps with darkening on the diffuse. ( the effect will only be prounced from distance (+500m) and at low level light situations)..... hmmm. examples please if you got any. !

pupaxx
05-13-2011, 06:26 AM
nice improvement 4me Ali! Great!
Please, where did u find the maps files to modify? Are these normal bitmap files or encoded one?
Thanks

SsSsSsSsSnake
05-13-2011, 07:47 AM
ok ive modded every assett now. sadly theres a mip mapping bug with the trees file which i had darkened. It produces an error on the console readback too. i have created a photoshop action file for modding the files in bulk ( an autumn and winter mod could be generated in minuites mwahahahha.)

here is where iam at. its subtle now. top pic is original lower the update. trying to create the same images is nigh on impossible lol. feedback ?

TIME= 09:00 settings:
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/53d7c96e.jpg
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/36619879.jpg

low shots which just seem crap in general.
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/74099495.jpg
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/28f02134.jpg

BTW i could so easily make this game look like WoP ? but i dont think so.

i was going to say it loks so much better now like WOP but i wont.good job.

David198502
05-13-2011, 09:08 AM
im impressed by the way the grass looks now.much better in my opnion!

RocketDog
05-13-2011, 10:04 AM
Looks very good to me. From my experience of flying (gliders) over the South of England I would say not to be afraid of making the greens of the fields quite intense, they just need to be darker than the rather pale greens CloD uses by default. Here's an example taken over Wiltshire in (IIRC) August.

Cheers,

Nick

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/DSC01760.jpg

philip.ed
05-13-2011, 11:18 AM
Brilliant work! I still think that, for midday, it might be slightly too dark...see RD's post above :cool:
But even so, it certainly is a great step towards something great.

Plt Off JRB Meaker
05-13-2011, 11:41 AM
Great work,much better,well done friend:)

SYN_Jed
05-13-2011, 11:54 AM
~If this isnt implemented into the game I will be soooooo dissapointed!. This is fantastic work!!!!

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 12:20 PM
nice improvement 4me Ali! Great!
Please, where did u find the maps files to modify? Are these normal bitmap files or encoded one?
Thanks

they are 12 mip map stage DDS files of DXT variations 3 and 5 for the trees. located in the parts folder and the $core folder within SFS files.

pupaxx
05-13-2011, 12:33 PM
thx!

philip.ed
05-13-2011, 12:37 PM
Maybe something more similar to this in colour...(although, IMHO, as photos show, the terrain in England would probably be slightly lighter in summer)

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3220047/Re_Colors_and_saturation_are_w.html#Post3220047

ChrisDNT
05-13-2011, 12:51 PM
Great work, thanks.

Btw, this kind of visual options should simply be standard in any game, so that every player could play the game he likes.

FZG_Immel
05-13-2011, 12:53 PM
A bit too dark, but I like it MUCH better. Relly looking forward to it !

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 01:00 PM
Thanks for all your superb feedback its really encouraging. anyway for this next image im hoping you can see past my exagerated effects and understand the concept of where iam going with this. also i think by the end of this it will appear like a totally new scenery. i have far to many enhancement ideas.

a few folks have posted some aerial shots over england in various posts, what i take from this is that there is an atmospheric involvment between the camera lens and the ground textures so to speak.. i can recreate this an a rudimentary form. many summer shots see the horizon blending in with the atmosphere and blending in with the sky all at same time. and this is what iam attempting with the following screen shot. this 1st sage test is a deliberate exageration , i did this just so i could prove it works. please dont dismiss the image as nonsense as i fear most will. also i have only changed 4 files here for the test. many textures have not been changed, thats about 23 in total., forrest texture is dark coz its not changed,

i think between this method and the present i can give the scenery a presence of atmopheric involvment, a feeling of summer haze. and when its tuned it should provide a good go between the non saturation we see down low and the saturation we see from height.

VERY EXAGERATED: hope you can understand where iam going with it. obviously the image is vloody crap in terms of visual appeall. just a forced demo. i do like the way the horizon meets with the land with the haze. my approach to the shading is linear as we go up the mip map stages. when i envolve a curve non linear concept it should make more sense.

regards the dark trees texture, that would blend out with the rest of the scenery no prob. ill be testing with various colours of atmospheric sheen, this blue may not work too well at dusk to night time.

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/6a229aa8.jpg

sadly i think the balancing for daytime might not allow this to occur in the evening but thats a test ill do now. will the blue sheen work ??? . its like ww2 smog though. but we will "only" have the effect out at the horizon areas +/- 2-5km providing the blending involved is without fault.

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 01:29 PM
oops thought id edited last post, ahh well.

last test just there has been a total eye opener. what i might do is not re colour the landscape, i may just apply my technique to the mip maps. which should keep everyone happy and adding atmosphere to our lovely game. it might be a bit dreamy, but thats character.

quickly tested evening time with the mip map shading, and well

SUMMER HAZE y'all! The blue does work ! \o/\o/\o/. Notice when lower down (2nd image) more saturation and detail is present through the blue haze which has been made grey -ish at dusk =perfect. didnt think that would work.
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/ec871d9d.jpg
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/d2b84578.jpg



ive thought of a problem too where integration with the rest of the sim is concerned. the haze concept might not work too well in with aircraft without the mip map shading applied too. if they were applied it would then make sense. the effect would be fracken brilliant too. never in my life have i witnessed a professional developer play with mip maps at all. and this is the perfect playground for it. Effectivly like an additional dirextx shader.

TedStryker
05-13-2011, 01:34 PM
Oh man thats really good. Top shot in particular v.convincing. Great work.

pupaxx
05-13-2011, 01:44 PM
@alifish
do you use a dds plugin for photoshop?

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 01:45 PM
@alifish
do you use a dds plugin for photoshop?

correct. I also use windows texture viewer for ascertaining various attributes of the original DDS files.

pupaxx
05-13-2011, 01:48 PM
Nice, I'm familiar with PS and I focused pretty well the final result I'd like to get... if I have spare time I'll try some experiment.
Thx

David198502
05-13-2011, 03:39 PM
i hope you are ready soon ali!i like what you are producing.seems much more convincing than the vanilla version!i want it.

Tree_UK
05-13-2011, 03:43 PM
Wow Ali, that looks so much better to my eyes anyway. Great work. :grin:

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 04:10 PM
ive been thinking about the eventuality of the SDK and what it might mean for implementing such a mod as mine. given that its simply a new set of textures that supercedes the originals. currently a package of approximatly 66 meg.

i think its going to have to be done as a full standalone 322 meg side addition to the present BoB module so people can have the choice. But presently and before its fully developed im not understanding the present layout of that module. as its split between the core and the bob modules. hmm. i would like to keep files sizes down as much as possible. but without the SDK i have literally no idea how this will pan out. for testing it it will involve the kegety dll method but for finalisation ive no idea whats going to be the outcome.

trees and close detail such as airfield grasses etc are in the core, the rest is in te BoB. it maybe the case the putting trees into the bob might still work with config file changes. but thats another world of investigation.

philip.ed
05-13-2011, 04:14 PM
These are more the colours I'd expect to see over England in the summer (paired with RD's excellent photo too. I'd imagine the fields would have had a slightly burnished look from the heat, although there were short rainy periods in the battle, so this would have an added effect too)

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/43641-1/RomanRoad-db60589a.jpg

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/9272-1/river-medway-aerial-aa06320b.jpg

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 04:23 PM
[QUOTE=philip.ed;282666]These are more the colours I'd expect to see over England in the summer (paired with RD's excellent photo too. I'd imagine the fields would have had a slightly burnished look from the heat, although there were short rainy periods in the battle, so this would have an added effect too)

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/43641-1/RomanRoad-db60589a.jpg

Burnished, excellent comment. This all very subjective but i must go out on a limb here.

that top picture is exactly what i want to see in cod. but its taken at around 4 o clock if its at summer. its nice though. you can even see the saturation in the distance together with the atmospherics, thats the image im concentrating on. every single image anyone can provide will always be different, so i will take that as my reference. great picture thanks.

lensman1945
05-13-2011, 04:35 PM
[QUOTE=philip.ed;282666]These are more the colours I'd expect to see over England in the summer (paired with RD's excellent photo too. I'd imagine the fields would have had a slightly burnished look from the heat, although there were short rainy periods in the battle, so this would have an added effect too)

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/43641-1/RomanRoad-db60589a.jpg

Burnished, excellent comment. This all very subjective but i must go out on a limb here.

that top picture is exactly what i want to see in cod. yes yes yes. you can even see the saturation in the distance together with the atmospherics, thats the image im concentrating on. every single image anyone can provide will always be different, so i will take that as my reference. great picture thanks.

except....that image has a red colour cast..otherwise I agree, the atmospheric effect is what we need.

philip.ed
05-13-2011, 05:11 PM
Yes, I know what you mean about the slightly red tint...it's hard to find photos that will represent the terrain perfectly, but a certain amount of artistic license should be allowed :-P

Cibit
05-13-2011, 05:35 PM
Excellent work Ali looking forward to testing:)

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 05:35 PM
Yes, I know what you mean about the slightly red tint...it's hard to find photos that will represent the terrain perfectly, but a certain amount of artistic license should be allowed :-P

thats exactly what im doing now. just adding some idea on top of the reference picture. and theres a old style sentimental flavour in the aesthetics that i kind of like with the desaturated version.


http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/9b4103bd.jpg

philip.ed
05-13-2011, 05:37 PM
You see, in my humble opinion, the slightly reddish look is characteristic of the summer-season. I think you're fix is great, but some of the fields should have the golden cast that some of the fields in the original picture have... :cool:

sorry if I appear to be quite picky

antier
05-13-2011, 05:45 PM
thats exactly what im doing now. just adding some idea on top of the reference picture.

Maybe that coud help ? (from reality cam) : http://vimeo.com/23387659

All Credit due to Luso 83 from C6 (http://www.checksix-forums.com/showthread.php?t=169078)

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 05:48 PM
You see, in my humble opinion, the slightly reddish look is characteristic of the summer-season. I think you're fix is great, but some of the fields should have the golden cast that some of the fields in the original picture have... :cool:

sorry if I appear to be quite picky

i agree to be honest.

Maybe that coud help ? (from reality cam) : http://vimeo.com/23387659

reality cam through a window and through what is probally a "digital" lens. im wanting to apply what the naked eyeball might see. and i see all sorts of anomolies and inconsistancy with cameras. but there are a few key points there in simply how the general colour reacts in bright daylight. cheers ! its like the patches have various mass of light. this is the refelctive element of the colour itself. what the yellows and ligher colours need on the map is a bloom style effect for that mass of light. or atleast a filter in photoshop. ive got various plans now. must chill and take direction.

anyway time for a break, must have put 15 hours into this in the last 26 hours.

41Sqn_Stormcrow
05-13-2011, 07:01 PM
If you want to make a good texture my proposition is: do it like the painters of old: go out into nature and paint from sight.

But use different computer screen types.

Do it for different weather and lighting conditions at different seasons and at different day times.


Three reasons for this:
A photo will always distort colours. It is inevitable. Even the best will have an optical system that changes some parameters slightly so that in the end the result will differ from reality. With digital cameras the sensor will add to this. For analogue cameras it is the film material that will change the colours.

Each computer screen type has its own colour scheme that alters the overal colour tone. So the same photo will look different on different computer screens. Some better computer screens will allow you to select a warm (redish) or cold (blueish) tone or some more advanced settings. But whatever you design on your screen will look different on the screen of another guy.

Memory is treacherous and shifts the perception of things - even the colours.
Also colour perception is strongly influenced by comparison the eye or brain does with other colours. So an item that you percieve as pure white will appear to you to be more yellowish or more greyish or more whatev' when you hold close to it something that is in fact whiter.

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 07:16 PM
been watching rise of flight video most of the day lol. its the best point of reference actually. the scenery should never be brighter than what we see there because its a game world and this bright stuff and shaders and generally how its done is not photgraphic. (nvidia head said in 5 yrs we will have that capability, presently we have the capability running at 2 fps). also the haze effect is done so well in rof. just like in that webb aviation image. hmmm.

41Sqn_Stormcrow
05-13-2011, 07:27 PM
But rof definitely does NOT depict realistic colours. It looks nice but it is purely artistically nice, not because it is realistical. In fact just go out now (if it is still broad day light where you live) and tell me if the gras you see is really desaturated as it is in rof. Unless you live in a region where it is very dry and the gras almost dying because of lack of water the answer will be that it's very green.

I agree though that the haze is much better in rof than in cod - at least on sunny days. I always said that the mist should be blue and not white as long as there's no complete cloud cover. If the latter is the case then the mist may become white as what we have in cod now on any day.

icetbag
05-13-2011, 07:40 PM
Looks really good and more natural to me, the current game ones look a little cartoonish at times.

Keep up the good work :)

Buzpilot
05-13-2011, 07:55 PM
Excellent! You got the right color here IMO... when are you releasing this "patch"? :grin:

If 1C could give modders a hint how to put them into ClientAddIns folder, maybe sooner?

skouras
05-13-2011, 09:49 PM
Looks like i have mod #1 in progress

working on enhancing the colours on the default map.

This image is 2 images, on the left default on the right new textur colouring by me. same time of day same mission. looks better ?

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/th_69c7f75e.jpg (http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/69c7f75e.jpg)

the title will be LRP, Land replacement pack. approx 70 meg in size. : LRPv011, will post here on 1st page when its ready for consumption.

excellent:-)

machoo
05-13-2011, 10:32 PM
Hey you know you can just desaturate the graphics in the windows display control panel and get the same effect .

conio
05-13-2011, 10:44 PM
http://www.aghoyle.com/channel%201024%20x%20768/021.jpg
http://www.aghoyle.com/channel%201024%20x%20768/012.jpg
http://www.aghoyle.com/channel%201024%20x%20768/013.jpg


More here:
http://www.aghoyle.com/channel.htm

philip.ed
05-13-2011, 11:02 PM
One thing though; there were no rape fields in 1940...but replace those with the brownish/golden crop fields...:cool:

41Sqn_Stormcrow
05-13-2011, 11:10 PM
I think what you clearly can see, raps or not, is that the landscape is definitely not desaturated. It may have a different basic tone than what we have in Cod but what is definitely not the case that saturation is to high in cod imho.

I am not completely blind to the fact that rof colours look good and I am quite sensitive to aesthetical issues. But Rof definitely does NOT depict reality in terms of colour except in terms of haze colour where it is definitely superiour to cod.

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 11:12 PM
look at the shadows, its not midday, nice pic, but i cant take much from it.

philip.ed
05-13-2011, 11:47 PM
Not midday, but IMHO these are roughly the colours I'd personally love to see

http://www.picturescolourlibrary.co.uk/hybrid/data.svt?viewpage=picture_details_np.jsp&page=1&source=keywords&query=1871414

sorry, the picture is rather blurred.

and this one looks nice too, although again it's not middday.

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/22130-1/hallplaceleighkent-ba27118.jpg

Liz Lemon
05-13-2011, 11:57 PM
The easiest solution to all these complaints of the color not being to saturated, or to green, or what have you would be to add a user adjustable color grading shader to the game.

Looking at what can be found through the sfs extractor, this should be possible, and there are plenty of parametric color grading shader that can be used or adapted to the game.

If the developers added it, they could even make it user adjustable. If someone wants to fly in spielbergian faded colors, they can. If someone wants the landscape to scream color, they can.


As for the creator of this texture mod, it'd be wise for you to look over the shaders as well as their associated config file. You may find that you can get that horizon look you're after without altering the textures.

Ali Fish
05-13-2011, 11:58 PM
As for the creator of this texture mod, it'd be wise for you to look over the shaders as well as their associated config file. You may find that you can get that horizon look you're after without altering the textures.

will wait for the SDK.

@ phillip very nice pics, id like to see that too eventually.

Mad G
05-14-2011, 12:01 AM
Yes, dark green trees, specially a darker tone for the lime color that looks tropical. Looking forward for your mod.

SQB
05-14-2011, 03:10 AM
In my opinion, the ground colour should not be desaturated, nor turned "brown-er" but rather just shifted to a slightly darker, fresher, green in comparison to the weirdly toxic one we have now.
In fact conio's pics basically sum up what I am looking for, except take out the rape.

SsSsSsSsSnake
05-14-2011, 07:04 AM
Not midday, but IMHO these are roughly the colours I'd personally love to see

http://www.picturescolourlibrary.co.uk/hybrid/data.svt?viewpage=picture_details_np.jsp&page=1&source=keywords&query=1871414

sorry, the picture is rather blurred.

and this one looks nice too, although again it's not middday.

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/22130-1/hallplaceleighkent-ba27118.jpg

Philip, did you ask permission from the devs of WOP2 for that screenshot?:)

41Sqn_Stormcrow
05-14-2011, 08:25 AM
Not midday, but IMHO these are roughly the colours I'd personally love to see

http://www.picturescolourlibrary.co.uk/hybrid/data.svt?viewpage=picture_details_np.jsp&page=1&source=keywords&query=1871414

sorry, the picture is rather blurred.

and this one looks nice too, although again it's not middday.

http://www.webbaviation.co.uk/gallery/d/22130-1/hallplaceleighkent-ba27118.jpg

Please keep in mind that when you show a photograph (even if it was the right day time) and also this on a computer there are two effects combined:

The photograph in itself never shows the real colours. Only our brain makes us believe that these colours are the right ones as we when looking at the picture usually lack the comparison. If you hold the picture up right on the spot where it was taken at the same daytime and the same weather condition you would realize that the colours on the picture are in fact different and have a certain colour shift. This colour shift is inevitable in photography (I do myself quite a bit of photography since my childhood).

Your computer screen has a colour shift of its own. So even IF the photograph showed the right colours (what it doesn't) you still would see wrong colours on your computer screen.

Now in fact you have both effects combined. And I'd say it is highly unlikey that they compensate each other.

PS: When I talk about colour I also mean all the other effects like gamma etc. that go with colour.

philip.ed
05-14-2011, 10:41 AM
Whilst I realise that the photos will never represent a perfect image, what is the solution? Go out and take samples of crop plants and grass, then go home and aim to translate that colour across in photoshop?
I think that the best solution is to give the people a representation, as near as possible, of how they imagine England to look like (either from past flying experiences, or from what they've seen whilst atop a relatively high hill).
Obviously, none of the pictures posted match perfectly, but an equilibrium can be attained which may not be far off reality. Indeed, one can tune their monitor to reach a different balance as well. No matter if Ali got the colours down to a tee, people would still see different results because their monitor isn't correctly calibrated.

I agree that photos will all vary, maybe to considerable degrees, but I can't see perfection being reached on purpose. ;)

Rattlehead
05-14-2011, 11:40 AM
the title will be LRP, Land replacement pack. approx 70 meg in size. : LRPv011, will post here on 1st page when its ready for consumption.

Thanks Ali.

I'm actually okay with the textures as they are, but I will look forward to trying your mod.

InsaneDruid
05-14-2011, 03:12 PM
Nice work.

Dunno if you know about it.. but AMD has a nice little tool for compressing textures into .dds format, with mipmap building, mass (batch) compression etc etc.

Personally, i use it all the time (like for the power&glory GTR2 mod). Saves a lot of time.

http://developer.amd.com/gpu/compressonator/pages/default.aspx

Ali Fish
05-15-2011, 12:25 PM
Nice work.

Dunno if you know about it.. but AMD has a nice little tool for compressing textures into .dds format, with mipmap building, mass (batch) compression etc etc.

Personally, i use it all the time (like for the power&glory GTR2 mod). Saves a lot of time.

http://developer.amd.com/gpu/compressonator/pages/default.aspx

cheers will have a look at that tommorow. interested in the dx10 implementation and if there are any difference to the good old photoshop plugins. and maybe i can fix the trees file issue as im sure luthier mentioned initially it was a mip map problemo.

back in the day mei was an rfactor designer for IDT champcar and others etc etc. and later GMT (mostly private work).. never tried mdding the gtr range though. roll on rfactor2.

power& glory mod looks brilliant id love to try it tbh. reminds me of the historics rF mod. not a gtr owner here though.

this is what im waiting to put into rfactor 2. yes its the AI driving and a very old video simply testing TIR.
http://youtu.be/4TmKiJPUeNM

jojimbo
05-15-2011, 01:42 PM
the new textures are fantastic, i find il2 cod's default textures a bit "garish" but i must say, the ground with ecverything on full is an absolutely amazing sight to behold.

philip.ed
05-16-2011, 07:42 PM
Ali, how is the terrain coming along? I was looking back over pictures of the CoD terrain, and I noticed that there seem to be a lot of fields which are either really dark or almost pastel in colour. It seems to be that, from photos I've seen (indeed, from mostly all the photos posted in the thread) that such variations are 'rare', as in that they don't appear as often as in CoD.
Is it possible to edit the actual textures in this way, to really alter to way the terrain looks?

Ali Fish
05-16-2011, 08:28 PM
Ali, how is the terrain coming along? I was looking back over pictures of the CoD terrain, and I noticed that there seem to be a lot of fields which are either really dark or almost pastel in colour. It seems to be that, from photos I've seen (indeed, from mostly all the photos posted in the thread) that such variations are 'rare', as in that they don't appear as often as in CoD.
Is it possible to edit the actual textures in this way, to really alter to way the terrain looks?

its a tough one. one hand i want to just do my own brand new textures, but i need info on how the shaders work. on the other manipulating the default textures is proving quite tricky. other than just de saturating every colour in it at once. which is a abit lame imo. will experiment again tommorow. LOL from what ive tried so far i just keep ending up with WOP. seriously. its hilariously not funny. !

philip.ed
05-16-2011, 09:46 PM
I don't envy you for your endeavours! But if you pull it off, it will be awesome.

BigPickle
05-16-2011, 10:08 PM
but i would like some testers for the online aspect and an ATI tester of the mod too

Count me in Buddy, also I use photoshop a lot so if you'd like any help I can try my best to pitch in there too.

i'm guessing you will pm about testing?

Ali Fish
05-17-2011, 12:29 AM
ok hmmm. pondering this ...... its summery but still garish. i like it. maybe if i apply some sheen to the mip maps it might help, i dunno. HELP ! feed me with ideas please.

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/b40448ec.jpg
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/ade6d661.jpg

Liz Lemon
05-17-2011, 12:46 AM
Pics not loading.

And why don"t you just batch process the textures?

Ali Fish
05-17-2011, 01:12 AM
iam processing them in bulk via photoshop with a custom made action for the changes. what difference does it make how i do it ?

with mod but at 19:00 hrs. i like this personally. its going to have to be video comparisons from now on, the bandwidth on these images i produce is incredible.

taking off and getting to these images was prettydamn cool at this time with the new detail. up close the textures are so much more alive with fine detail. maybe a bit rough tbh.
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/64633c00.jpg

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/bed262c3.jpg

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/385f3c91.jpg

SturmKreator
05-17-2011, 01:54 AM
looks amazing

Ali Fish
05-17-2011, 02:53 AM
France wip. ran these through the same changes.
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/6886ad1c.jpg

ok so the image below ive tweaked in photoshop. added some red a little blue and minus a touch of green. such a basic change, but its getting that burnished summer look i think,

ignore plane and sky colours for now. but ill say this. the developers in my high opinion have too much yellow light thing going on. to much characterisation in this sim. or well there computer monitors are set up quite differently maybe i should try a cold temp settings ???, because i think thats it. everything becomes so much nicer with techniques i should not have to employ. i believe i have a good eye for things and i sware theres somthing not right. anyway voila.

this practically emulates a colder temperature setting in comparison to all others and for some reason its now looking "propa" all images are the same mod pack. no changes other than time of day. either 19:00 or 13:00

fufufeedback time !

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/46176ce6.jpg

im off to bed with a phat spliff to chill out \o/ i believe im finally getting somewhere. and adding to the overall pallette with more different colours has made the tiles less distinguishable whilst adding a realistic element of chaos out to the horizons, enjoy navigating lol.

further changes may involve a more hazy look with the mips especially out to the horizon. not sure. the effect should work well with the morning mist and general dusk time.

BigPickle
05-17-2011, 10:53 AM
Looks great but maybe reduce the contrast a tiny bit, just to soften slightly the colour difference.
The last picture looks nice but i couldnt put my finger on what it was that seemed out, then i realised straight away.

Its the water!! at the moment it matches the crazy luminous stock landscape, plus the game engine for some bizzare reason does the opposite of reality and lightens textures with distance rather than darken them, but you wont be able to change that.

Water here in the UK has a brown type colour especially the English channel,
http://www.fiked.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Swim-The-English-Channel.jpg

most inland water ways are a very similar greeny brown colour because of the sand and silt.

http://www.henricksblog.com/England08Public/BOURTON-0764.JPG

If you could try to emulate those colour i think with your current textures it would maximize the effect beyond belief.

EDIT# Sorry but i just realised there's some dirty bastard letting his dog shit on the grass :)

philip.ed
05-17-2011, 10:59 AM
That last picture looks brilliant!
But I think that, in the textures themselves, there are too many really dark fields, and also too many really light fields (like the yellow/rape one, which is rather unhistorical)
Not your fault though, Ali! Indeed, I think that overall, the fields are too dark for Summer. In CloD, the textures seem too washed out...maybe a correct colour balance can be achieved, where the fields are fairly light in colour, and the trees are contrastingly dark?
And, has been said numerous times now, dark hedge-borders for the fields would be lovely. But all in good time. 8)

Interestingly, when I had time to fly Il-2, I used to use a program called powerstrip, which allows one to calibrate their monitor to represent colour temperatures, to simulate 'true' day-time colours. I use settings that Avala posted, and it makes Il-2 look wonderful.

Ali Fish
05-17-2011, 12:07 PM
mornin !, feedback is great thanks. still need some more though. its a must that we compare similar pics in terms of atmospherics and cloud cover with attention to distance from objective.


looking at my images today, yes its definetly not right still, but for me the "design" is better, just need those colour compromises etc. at dusk time im so very happy with it in general. as we all are with cod even with vanilla textures. so i reckon its about compromising.

water colour. im not going to mess with that. on a summer days from height water reflects as blue, because of the bounce of light from sky off the sea and also the mass concentration effect. i know the brown comes from the overcast sky and a mix of sand particles in the sea. i live in blackpool so i know the sea. and were in a game here that isnt quite doing enough sshader wise to satisfy me/us.

Big Pickle. id love to see that awesome image you posted without overcast sky, totally blue sky etc etc. just to compare the colours.

GuillermoZS
05-17-2011, 12:40 PM
Hi! Great job so far. I find those last screenshots a bit oversaturated IMO, maybe reducing contrast would help... I know the absence of haze and atmosphere affects the high altitude looking of the ground though...

Agree that the water should be browner... Don´t know if it can be changed through textures though...

Looking forward to this :)

Ali Fish
05-17-2011, 12:44 PM
Agree that the water should be browner... Don´t know if it can be changed through textures though...

damn you all to hell ! LMAO

ill be back with brown sea folks. but really what are you guys on ? i know what im on. but the sea is blue, its translucent with alot of crap in it. up close without blue sky, it is brown. but not so with a blue sky above. then depending on the concetration of sky cover mixed with further light bounce it becomes grey. and when the light it fully diffused and in direct with low bounce its then brown.

philip.ed
05-17-2011, 12:50 PM
I disagree about the sea. It should be murkier around the coast-line, and more blue/black/dark as it gets deeper...

Ali Fish
05-17-2011, 01:12 PM
FAIL ! got the animations of the seascape but cant find anything else. and i like blue sea anyway, seriously it wouldnt look right any other colour other than more grey. it also exists everywhere (under terrain) so maybe its hard coded. not sure.

philip.ed
05-17-2011, 01:48 PM
Hmm, I recall this picture:

http://fooblog.mexxoft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/shot_20100618_145726-e1276897336743.jpg

But then again, the detail isn't really too visible.

Although....

http://fooblog.mexxoft.com/wp-content/cap031.jpg

I will add that, in CloD, the sea doesn't seem to flow towards the cost; in some cases it moves perpendicular to the coast...(wish the game would run on my rig so I could have a go at testing myself)

BigPickle
05-17-2011, 02:54 PM
I totally see what you mean Ali, not brown like poop brown just not the blue it is at the moment, it almost looks a little tropical. You have the north sea, its a fresher and deeper than the channel, the channel is very sandy and that gives it that brownish hue, but as i said its only brownish a little.

I can grab some photo's for you if you want when the weather is better of the canals and water ways around the birmingham area, they give a real good green/brown waterway colour.

But hey mate, its your mod, the community will support how you want to make it buddy.

41Sqn_Stormcrow
05-17-2011, 07:49 PM
One should consider that the colour of the sea is depending very much on light condition, what is inside the sea (algae), how shallow or deep it is or if it is real clear water or if there is much plankton or dirt in it and water temperature and the ground composition. I guess also the air may alter the appearance of water.

I remember having visited an Island just short south of Brittany in France (Atlantic ocean) so quite north and nothing that should look too different from the Channel.

Well, it did. It looked on this particular day as if I had been in the Carribean with locally turquoise cristal clear waters. The same water may look completely different on a rainy day.

Some images of the Blautopf, a location in Southern Germany that translates roughly into Blue Pot called this way for some good reason as you immediately will see in the pictures. As I have seen it with my own eyes: it is definitely and really very blue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blautopf

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/BlautopfKloster.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Blautopf_Quelle.jpg

Ali Fish
05-17-2011, 08:24 PM
lovely pictures !.

Buzpilot
05-18-2011, 05:09 AM
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/46176ce6.jpg

Maybe too many colors, from plants they didn't use back then?
And also seems a bit overwhelming, like colors from spring,summer,autumn mixed?

Letum
05-18-2011, 09:26 AM
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/46176ce6.jpg

That's all a bit psychedelic. not right at all.
I'm sorry I don't have the knowlage or words to provide anything more constructive than that.

Aggro
05-18-2011, 12:30 PM
Alifish I think you are getting there, but so far its all been too much, something inbetween yours and the original would be much better. Just find the sweetspot. you are not there yet, its waay too much in all of your own screenshots. Just some input. Looking forward to the results, Good luck

pupaxx
05-18-2011, 12:49 PM
yes...last pict posted by Ali is too much psychedelic, but the intention of adding more contrast is the right way..
4me (if looked at distance) CloD terrain appears to much washed-out.
I just played 2min with Photoshop on a previous posted pict in lunchtime break...

5953
5954

..and the trees should be more contrasted, in these pict they look to much merged in landscape, they disappear and don't cast shadows

Cheers

gwpc
05-18-2011, 01:03 PM
Ali, I think your earlier efforts were much better. It seems to me you've been a bit derailed by the plethora of photos people have posted.

This shot, for me, was definitely the closest to what I see here in the U.K.
The most recent ones look surreal.

http://http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=5955&stc=1&d=1305720153

Cheers, gwpc

philip.ed
05-18-2011, 01:08 PM
Hmmm, to me that looks far too green.
I actually think that there are too many fields in CloD which are 'funky' colours. By this I mean that some are almost pastel in colour, whilst others are really dark and murky. Throughout a season, most fields in a given area would suffer the same weather affects, so consequently, although the colours will differ, the actual weathering (or, should we say, burnishing (as it is summer)) will be largely universal.

I think CloD needs a large number of fields which are grass-green (not luminous green) and then others which are able to reflect the colour of the crop.
Obviously, when I say a large number which are grass green, this will all depend on what the weather has been like, so if it has been really warm, then the colour will look more washed out and dry.

I think the photos posted in this thread: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=22249 give a fairly good representation of what I mean ;)

I mean, look at this WoP shot. It's very green, but the green itself doesn't look too bad IMHO

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/attachment.php?attachmentid=5824&d=1304698427

Although the colours look nice in this CloD picture (which looks edited) http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1467/codtest6.jpg

Clearly the trees need darkening. Looking at CloD, the texture for the terrain under the trees is quite a sickly colour. Maybe if it was darkened to almost black it would give a much better impression?

And obviously this is an edited photo, but IMHO these colours are quite nice

http://www.bugbog.com/images/galleries/england_pictures/cotswolds_airview.jpg

(maybe the green needs to be washed out a bit more. The photo is clearly edited)

Ali Fish
05-18-2011, 02:04 PM
i watched the battle of britain last night. i also watched this which was fantastic.

for uk'ers only as it bbc iplayer. Its an hour and a half long, mainly about british lansdscape art, last 20 mins is about war time british propaganda landscape art, ohh and theres some spitfires lol !

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01173pk/This_Green_and_Pleasant_Land_The_Story_of_British_ Landscape_Painting/

basicly between the two is all the information needed to semi accuratly re create south east england.

the colours displayed in battle of britain were just awesome. but the scale of the texture in il2 is seriusly wrong. i.e. the average size of a field basck then was probally the size of the texture tile itself. so there are too many patch fields ! i believe that the devlopers have looked at modern day field and land divisions and taken that as the scenic appeal. imo its not wrong but in correct for what im trying to achieve.

regards that last image phillip. its way to green, but only because every other non green hue as filtered with the same filter for the green. the trick is to extract each colour and configure independantly.

my latest efforts look pretty much like the originals, still only with a comparison screenshot they look better. which isnt good enough really for a mod so im not sure what to do tbh, its got me all wound up. one of the most important aspects of what i want to achieve is very much hindered by my
inabillity to darken the trees. and ive tried everything there. untill i can do that i wont be working on it much. unless i have a serious brainstorm and it all works itself out lol.

if i got the bandwidth left for images ill post some from these 2 media sources.

philip.ed
05-18-2011, 02:10 PM
That video on iplayer is brilliant! I'd love to see terrain like that in CloD.
Interestingly though, my book on the BoB film explains that a lot of the footage was shot over France (because the weather in Blighty was too poor for filming) so I'd take everything there with a pinch of salt (as far as modelling England is concerned) ;)

Ali, do you have access to the textures which the trees sit on? Maybe darkening those would improve things?

Ali Fish
05-18-2011, 02:24 PM
yeah phillip done that. the lighter colour trees negate any effect of darkening the land base, now with trees properly dark my textures would look a whole lot better.

my photobucket account is perilously close to having exceeded its bandwidth use. ohh dear. my pics may dissappear soon :( but heres the last texture change with stupid trees. you may not be able to tell the difference but its there.
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/abecfc1b.jpg

philip.ed
05-18-2011, 03:10 PM
That actually looks brilliant!
I think that there are still too many really dark fields (like the brown ones) which might look better if they were more golden, and similarly the really dark green fields look a bit out of place, but it definitely looks good!
Out of interest, how does it look when the colours are adjusted to look more natural (like you did before in photoshop)?

Ali Fish
05-18-2011, 03:57 PM
how does it look when the colours are adjusted to look more natural (like you did before in photoshop)?

it looks dead with that styling phillip, it looks stylised, just like wop. people want the colourfull summers day pleasant green (&yellow) lands. not the browns the saturation changes make.

light isnt about whats hitting the object its more about what light the object is emitting in our game environment of course. !

lets take a rich yellow corn field. whilst viewed at ground level from a distance of say 10 metres its this colour, and bare in mind you also view everything between the corn field elements, that maybe the ground, the atmoshphere , its shadow against another element ! But...... when viewed from say 2000 metres its a different story, the mass of area of the cornfield has a further influence on the colour, brightness and contrast, in its mass it reflects more light back at the lens.

along side that rich colurfull yellow we pick 1 shade of green in abundance. at ground level we see much similar to the yellow from certain persepctive. but at height and in abundance or mass of green colour, that dark green colour does not get brighter because of various reasons. shadowing is enhanced thats an absence of light ! so its not quite as reflective of light in general thus it retains its dark quality. but with both colour examples you can throw all this theory out the window depending on the angles of light. so its a very dynamic arena, one we cant simulate in this game.

a tree or forrest has the same qualities as above but in scale everything is much bigger including the shadow generation qualites. its much darker.

each colour operates independantly in reality. in our beloved flightsim things are not and never will be so dynamic. so were left playing with this incredible balancing act thats pretty hard to manipulate with the tools we have. and basic shader use thats set with such an awkward colour base at various times of day.

any VU fans out there ?

White light, Aww white light it lighten up my eyes
White light, don't you know it fills me up with suprise
White light, Aww white heat tickle me down to my toes
White light, Aww white light I tell you now goodness knows, now work it

BigPickle
05-18-2011, 04:50 PM
i watched the battle of britain last night

Best flight movie ever made ! And at the end during the music/dogfight sequence your see the real english channel colour when a heink crashes into it. ( the rest of the water sequences were filmed as was the rest of the movie in and over spain)

Ali Fish
05-18-2011, 08:29 PM
* Reworked the lighting system in the game to improve the visual experience

ohh yeah ! that kinda came out the blue. wonder if anything here has made em think. this thread has been quite objective in its study more so than a home user mod thread. lets wait and see, but ive a feeling i know what this will be like !. and we'll if we dont need this mod after all. That would suit me fine. Excellent.

first one with a new screeny at 12:00 pm over kent gets a cookie. lol

fireflyerz
05-18-2011, 11:06 PM
You can keep changing the colours as much as you like , it will never look like england untill the field borders are replaced with hedgerows .

Ctrl E
05-18-2011, 11:53 PM
You can keep changing the colours as much as you like , it will never look like england untill the field borders are replaced with hedgerows .

I agree. It's not the colour of the fields that are so much the issue, but the trees and hedges. Trees need to be darker

Ali Fish
05-19-2011, 12:26 AM
new patch new lighting, dusk time has a fantastic new flavour, and theres just much more light about in general, more specular effects etc.

at dusk though the green comes through really weird, really !, check it out, quick mission set time to 20:00. darkening the default textures is a must now. oo eck.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/558657320133870593/739115CF446A358A2CEE3FAD55337F71F372D041/

Wolf_Rider
05-19-2011, 06:15 AM
Somehow, I feel its not the saturation (from some earlier posts, is that what you're tweaking?) which needs adjusting... it is the actually hues themselves which need going over

Aggro
05-19-2011, 12:21 PM
http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/AliFishGMT/abecfc1b.jpg

This is much better, I hope this was done ingame and not photoediting etc?

Ali Fish
05-19-2011, 04:55 PM
that is an un edited screenshot.

philip.ed
05-19-2011, 05:26 PM
Ali, do you prefer the new lighting then? How is midday?

BigPickle
05-19-2011, 06:47 PM
I think the old lighting looks better for Dusk and Dawn, but midday looks better with new lighting.

Ali Fish
05-19-2011, 06:52 PM
actually i really do like it. actually ive not seen anything better tbh. utterly outstanding lighting effects ! but ive a confession. lol and its a bad one too.

nvidia colour settings were ticked in my Gcard nvidia settings. so i unticked them, it became apparent im not even set up properly. anyway basicly for a graphics guy like myself. im the biggest fool around here today.

it doesnt affect what you guys see but only my take on it all through what ive been viewing incorrectly.

but. the new reworked lighting has a nice colour balance, so during the day im seeing such awesome blue skies, really deep colours, this alongside the scenery makes alot of sense. everything in general is that bit brighter. the other side of the coin is dusk time and well i love the effects there even better. apart from the phospherus colour the greens go! but the colour bleed that goes on everywhere else is just brilliant.

those trees and greens for the carpet beneath the trees and some of the light greens need to become darker still,

this latest patch isnt very good for my system so i might not work to much on it further. <whispers> "its a bit of a step backwards imo"

Edit: after uninstalling the game cleaning everything out etc, re installing. WOW its better, not perfect. but better.

BigPickle
05-20-2011, 03:54 PM
Yeah I'm suffering with the latest patch too, i did a full reinstall of steam and Cod myself first, but i get loads of crashing and stuff now :(

Ali Fish
05-24-2011, 04:42 PM
The 'old' feel. and my Artistic Impression... About as close to somthing i personally dont mind, and it covers all bases. all times of day.

whilst avoidin the cosmic greens that simply have to much yellow. ohh and the heavily darkened tree carpet patches i think are perfectl. it looks washed out hence the 'old'. i cant do anymore tbh.

i think the original artist with his full templates should go back and rebalance the yellow which gives the greens its phospherescent nature and whilst retaining the yellow over the lighter coloured non green fields.

timeline in screenshots.
12:00 / 15:00
19:30 / 19:30
00:00 / 02:00

http://i.imgur.com/W7lsxl.jpg (http://imgur.com/W7lsx)http://i.imgur.com/1ssHGl.jpg (http://imgur.com/1ssHG)
http://i.imgur.com/quM6ql.jpg (http://imgur.com/quM6q)http://i.imgur.com/F6h55l.jpg (http://imgur.com/F6h55)
http://i.imgur.com/Oq6IQl.jpg (http://imgur.com/Oq6IQ)http://i.imgur.com/wpWESl.jpg (http://imgur.com/wpWES)

philip.ed
05-24-2011, 06:22 PM
That certainly looks effective; like WoP without the dreaded filter.

I trust this is just for fun though mate....:-P

Nice work on the trees though; so you finally managed to sort the colour out?
Out of interest as well, some of the green colours don't look too bad there. Maybe if more of the standard grass colours were added to the lighter-colour fields, and then brownish/gold fields added it would look perfect....:cool:

Sven
05-24-2011, 06:47 PM
I like it, especially the trees, but that the yellow on those photos is way too white at 12:00, could either be snow or cotton to my eyes.

Ali Fish
05-24-2011, 07:57 PM
there was not any trees in last images. just the darker carpet for the trees (forrests) to sit on.

but finally figured out the problem with the trees file. so here we have stupidly dark trees lol.... DOH ! anyway few more files still need changed to allow for the darker trees still. but its a big difference.

same ground textures as above. but the trees themselves change all that.

http://i.imgur.com/9dKFal.jpg (http://imgur.com/9dKFa)

Mauri
05-24-2011, 07:58 PM
Attempts to get something from the existing textures is a waste of time. Playing with the light will not give anything. Textures must be completely reworked.

Taken from here:
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=69026&p=1625647&viewfull=1#post1625647

Ali Fish
05-24-2011, 08:05 PM
Attempts to get something from the existing textures is a waste of time. Playing with the light will not give anything. Textures must be completely reworked.

Taken from here:
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=69026&p=1625647&viewfull=1#post1625647

yeah thats great. but that dude has got a whole load of more problems on his hands now. no roads, misplaced trees etc etc the list goes on. i could easily replace these tilable textures for english fields just like that but that most certainly isnt the way unless you create everything from scratch. and without the sdk is doubt thats too possible. but when it is ill be all over that with my modellor buddies.

i will probally release a darker trees only mod for now.

Mauri
05-24-2011, 08:15 PM
This is possible without the SDK. We need to take the original texture and replace all the small fields step by step. Yeah it's time consuming, but this is possible.

Ali Fish
05-24-2011, 08:21 PM
This is possible without the SDK. We need to take the original texture and replace all the small fields step by step. Yeah it's time consuming, but this is possible.

yehp ! its a major PITA imo. but somthing i might try. besides the alpha channel is a good basis to work on for layout.

Rattlehead
05-24-2011, 08:30 PM
Looks good Ali. I'm keeping a keen eye on your progress...:)

philip.ed
05-24-2011, 08:54 PM
Very nice work, Ali!
Whilst the work that guy on the Russian forum has done looks nice, are the colours really representative of summer? It looks more like Spring to me.
It shows, though, how 3'D hederows really are needed to give the game that realistic boost.
Rather than creating new tiles, couldn't that guy have just recoloured the existing ones?

EDIT-looking at all the pictures on the Russian forum, I think the default colours are much better.

SsSsSsSsSnake
05-24-2011, 09:27 PM
I take it David Hayward hasnt spotted this thread yet?

Ali Fish
05-24-2011, 09:32 PM
I take it David Hayward hasnt spotted this thread yet?

lol.

ok default textures, with a seperate mod for all tree related textures. the darker tree mod. which i think is quite tidy, BANG TIDY !

what a difference.
click and click again for fullscreen
http://i.imgur.com/9I33nl.jpg (http://imgur.com/9I33n)http://i.imgur.com/O4uzll.jpg (http://imgur.com/O4uzl)

philip.ed
05-24-2011, 09:37 PM
That does look much better!
Can the trees be moved/arranged, Ali?
Also, here's an interesting photo....
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7539/englandal.jpg

Ali Fish
05-24-2011, 09:43 PM
That does look much better!
Can the trees be moved/arranged, Ali?


not to familar with speed tree and how its being implented in cod. so no not without the sdk.

Strike
05-24-2011, 10:03 PM
lol.

ok default textures, with a seperate mod for all tree related textures. the darker tree mod. which i think is quite tidy, BANG TIDY !

what a difference.
click and click again for fullscreen
http://i.imgur.com/9I33nl.jpg (http://imgur.com/9I33n)http://i.imgur.com/O4uzll.jpg (http://imgur.com/O4uzl)

WOW, this was only by changing trees?? I hope luthier is watching your work, because you are doing it for them! I almost feel as if last patch's lighting upgrades were a direct response to your experimenting :)

Great job!

RocketDog
05-24-2011, 10:44 PM
Apologies for all the pictures, but I'm posting them here in the hope they are useful in providing a reference for work to mod CloD's landscape. As you can see, Ali's work on darkening the trees makes CloD's landscape much more realistic in a single move. Apologies if some are a bit blurry, but it's hard to fly the aircraft with one hand and take pictures with the other ;).

The images are all taken from my glider at heights of 2,000 - 5,000' over Wiltshire in the SW of England and not far from Salisbury (which is in the top left corner of CloD's map). Almost all are taken at times between 13:00 and 17:00. Most were taken in July and August. In August, some crop fields have been harvested, which explains the big, medium brown fields.

Obviously, the yellow of oil-seed rape would have been absent in the 1940s. Similarly, before the widespread use of agricultural pesticides the fields would have had more wild flowers and been less monochrome.

The landscape is quite typical of most of the South of England.

If people are annoyed by the bandwith taken up, let me know and I'll edit the post to remove them!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/P1000111.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01802.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01800.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/P1000027.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/P1000033.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/P1000102.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/P1000099.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/P1000106.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/P1000119.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/P1000110.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/102_2902-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01520-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01569.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01661-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01681.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01684.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01760-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01766.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01802.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01817.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/DSC01803.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/Club_Libelle_716/P1000101.jpg

Ali Fish
05-24-2011, 10:44 PM
thanks for the appreciation guys. what the eye sees as a whole every colour combining together is whats leading us to our conclusions. having that dark realistic tree colour in there is definetly enough for the overall feel of the textures. i hope the developer artists agree somewhat.

nice pics rocket dog. if i get round to re doing the field tiling, ill be using those as reference minus the cosmic green that just doesnt work anywhere but photographically. and were no where near that stage with shaders yet.


WOW, this was only by changing trees?? I hope luthier is watching your work, because you are doing it for them! I almost feel as if last patch's lighting upgrades were a direct response to your experimenting :)

Great job!

well who can tell. but i ashamedly said somthing similar to a friend. but i did also mention the shaders for nightime some time ago too and then we got moon light. im an ok artist, competant with the tools for sure. and lookin at my history i do excell where balancing of special effects are concerned. but theres always a better artist round the corner and thankfully so.

Strike
05-24-2011, 10:50 PM
well who can tell. but i ashamedly said somthing similar to a friend. but i did also mention the shaders for nightime some time ago too and then we got moon light. im an ok artist, competant with the tools for sure. and lookin at my history i do excell where balancing of special effects are concerned. but theres always a better artist round the corner and thankfully so.

Ideally, and you must agree, the dev team should reproduce your modifications, and save us all that extra modification all together? Even if it's "ripping off" your tweaking, they're implementing our common goal here of acheiving realistic ground appearance, don't you think? :)

Strike
05-24-2011, 10:53 PM
That does look much better!
Can the trees be moved/arranged, Ali?
Also, here's an interesting photo....
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7539/englandal.jpg

Just thinking here. I'm not a photographer by any means, but I do own three cameras. This reminds me of when something bright dominates the scene, and the camera adjusts down the exposure and brightness to try and retrieve some balance/detail from the clouds, causing the background (terrain) colours to darken a lot. That's what it seems like to me anyways

Ali Fish
05-24-2011, 11:00 PM
yes phillip all these "lens" factors need to be taken into consideration.

the only game that i know of that simulates a lens view of the world is gran tourismo 5. and it does a bloody good job. we can not replicate lens effects in il2cod yet. hint hint. (this is 1 aspect thats part of the future of graphics)

the dev team should change the trees to a more darker variety. yes. i hope they will.

i would love to be part of there beta testers or feedback team with an russian and english speaking person. but i dont know if they organise like that.

lol for now i got me some cosmic green i must get rid off.

Liz Lemon
05-25-2011, 02:27 AM
Just thinking here. I'm not a photographer by any means, but I do own three cameras. This reminds me of when something bright dominates the scene, and the camera adjusts down the exposure and brightness to try and retrieve some balance/detail from the clouds, causing the background (terrain) colours to darken a lot. That's what it seems like to me anyways

Yes, the camera is stepped down a few stops to maintain the detail in the highlights of the clouds. Of course it also looks like its a slide film, which generally has a lower dynamic range than computer monitors.

yes phillip all these "lens" factors need to be taken into consideration.

the only game that i know of that simulates a lens view of the world is gran tourismo 5. and it does a bloody good job. we can not replicate lens effects in il2cod yet. hint hint. (this is 1 aspect thats part of the future of graphics)

the dev team should change the trees to a more darker variety. yes. i hope they will.

i would love to be part of there beta testers or feedback team with an russian and english speaking person. but i dont know if they organise like that.

lol for now i got me some cosmic green i must get rid off.

GT5 isn't the only game that simulates a camera lens, if you're talking about photo mode. And even then its not a simulation of the lens, but mostly post processing effect (Note: I'm assuming the DOF blur is using the z buffer) And games like crysis 2, UDK, ect are doing tons of things to mimic/fake the look of film. Anamorphic lens flair, color grading, color fringing, ect.

Ali Fish
05-25-2011, 03:15 AM
dusk around late evening. its a pleasure to fly over that now.
http://i.imgur.com/AIsc9l.jpg (http://imgur.com/AIsc9)http://i.imgur.com/OTZ71l.jpg (http://imgur.com/OTZ71)
http://i.imgur.com/ppWoNl.jpg (http://imgur.com/ppWoN)http://i.imgur.com/CEZrul.jpg (http://imgur.com/CEZru)

Strike
05-25-2011, 09:38 AM
these shots look superb Ali Fish!

I think you have a pretty good eye for this job ;)

I'll stay tuned for an official update with the changes to the trees :D Just you watch!

philip.ed
05-25-2011, 10:02 AM
Yes, regarding the picture I posted above, the colours are definitely far off from what the eye would see.
However, it demonstrates how, in a particular area, there are only really 2 main colours of fields, as opposed to the patchwork/multi-coloured design of CloD.
I think natural simplicity is key here.

Letum
05-25-2011, 02:04 PM
The dark trees make a big differance.

Mad G
05-25-2011, 10:43 PM
The dark trees make a big differance.

Indeed.

41Sqn_Stormcrow
05-26-2011, 12:05 AM
A couple of days I did some thinking about the trees.

Yes, to me from a distance a forrest seems darker that what we have ingame. However, when I imagine a tree whose leaves do have the dark green that I imagine for a forest it just would not look right. I compared this recently to the trees I saw when taking my car over 500 km. And indeed the trees don't look dark at all when looking at them individually.

I then came to think that forest just seems to be so much darker than the surrounding meadows because of shadow. In fact the totality of leaves of a tree represent a much more fractal shape than meadows (that's the evolutionary benefit of leaves on a tree) and thus there's more fractal shadow on the inner layers of the tree crown. Hence why they appear darker from the distance while on close up they aren't.

Ali Fish
05-26-2011, 12:26 AM
A couple of days I did some thinking about the trees.

Yes, to me from a distance a forrest seems darker that what we have ingame. However, when I imagine a tree whose leaves do have the dark green that I imagine for a forest it just would not look right. I compared this recently to the trees I saw when taking my car over 500 km. And indeed the trees don't look dark at all when looking at them individually.

I then came to think that forest just seems to be so much darker than the surrounding meadows because of shadow. In fact the totality of leaves of a tree represent a much more fractal shape than meadows (that's the evolutionary benefit of leaves on a tree) and thus there's more fractal shadow on the inner layers of the tree crown. Hence why they appear darker from the distance while on close up they aren't.

agreed. ive commented about the differences in the mass of different colours at different distances. this is not implemented in cod (yet?) and the problem, 2 tree base models. 1 for close up and one or distant. distant colouring is based on close up model colouring and blended thus to make the transition relativly invisible. the close up version given presidence unfortunatly.

there is no shader that blends the distant with the close tree model textures. the lod of the hi quality version creeps in, in an awkward manner. the colour of the hi quality tree model when viewing up close had to be used on the distant model too. hence the problem. and why we have "cosmic green tree-itus". lol (im not suggesting we need a shader btw)

with my mod we now have hi quality tree model far to dark so it blends with the distant tree model. although its not that bad. as i will demonstrate in roughly 1 hours time with a video (uploading presently)

in the current format we have several tree variations, and soon i will dable in re colouring them whilst trying to keep the major tree groups as dark as possible. variation is what we want to see more than at present. but hang tight for the video. i know that now without controllable vehicles this is a flightsim. i think the trees should be based on the darker distant colours seen from height as thats where we are in a flightsim.

Ali Fish
05-26-2011, 01:18 AM
a day in the life of some IL2 graphics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUa_viVGNNs&hd=1

its worth having darker trees or is it not ?

jt_medina
05-26-2011, 02:01 AM
It almost look a new scenery!.
Why not release it?.

Formula88
05-26-2011, 02:47 AM
Looks great with the darker trees, how about darkening the flourescent green landscape as well?

CUJO_1970
05-26-2011, 03:53 AM
Huge improvement.

Can anything be done with France?

Wolf_Rider
05-26-2011, 05:49 AM
@ Ali Fish...

that's looking pretty good mate. I agree with Formula88 about earthing up the landscape colours though, but on the whole... its a fantastic improvement

philip.ed
05-26-2011, 01:51 PM
Ali, that looks amazing! :o

Brilliant work! Whilst I can see what the others mean about earthing the terrain colours up, I don't think they need darkening. I think that a lot of the terrain tiles have colours which look quite acidic. Rather than working on the whole tile-set, maybe it's just these individual areas which need sorting out?

Either way, that really does look quite amazing. The trees darkness makes so much difference.

Ali Fish
05-26-2011, 01:56 PM
i could change the ground textures for the umpteenth time but i think its the shader that works the brightness that needs changed not the texture itself.

philip.ed
05-26-2011, 02:07 PM
i could change the ground textures for the umpteenth time but i think its the shader that works the brightness that needs changed not the texture itself.

I agree with that, however from what I can see, some field textures clearly look a lot different to others. In any case, there are never as many differently coloured fields in real-life as there are in CloD, so whilst the shaders may need improving, the overall layout of this multi-coloured field spectrum does too :grin:

Ivan Fooker
05-26-2011, 02:09 PM
Top textures on the tress!
Good work buddy!
Keep it on!

Ali Fish
05-26-2011, 02:35 PM
I agree with that, however from what I can see, some field textures clearly look a lot different to others. In any case, there are never as many differently coloured fields in real-life as there are in CloD, so whilst the shaders may need improving, the overall layout of this multi-coloured field spectrum does too :grin:

ill look into it. Starting with.... this is how the tileable textures tile together. within this whats possible is astounding in theory!. regional field variations might work better and can be done here. theres going to have to be some mathematics here too to keep the tiled nature from revealing its true nature. the job is to break it up create randomisation. so percentages of light fields next to darker fields will need to be thought of. quite a job. but a job for a seperate scenery mod. a new island or theatre. if im going to put that level of work in. it'll be for somthing grand and not just a makeover... i think...

http://i.imgur.com/pAErHl.jpg (http://imgur.com/pAErH)

philip.ed
05-26-2011, 03:29 PM
Wow, that's really interesting! Do each of the coloured regions apply to a way in which the textures fit together? Or, as you allude to, are they regions in themselves?
Interesting stuff!
I agree, I can see how cosmetic work like you have done on the trees may be nice to release as a short-term mod, but complete modding projects at this stage may be rather pointless, because we don't really have any idea on what the team are planning to do, or have already done.

Aside from the terrain, those top-cloud layers are in desperate need of work. They look like something produced in 2001! Benders cloud mod for Il-2 included some awesome textures for the high-cloud layers, which really improved the game. A simple enough fix to do (if CloD is using .tga files like Il-2 classic did) which can make a whole lot of difference.

Ali Fish
05-26-2011, 03:44 PM
for the bulk of the scenery is 4 textures. ive just painted each of them a full colour. they fit together in any order really but im gona check that .

Ali Fish
05-26-2011, 03:50 PM
wow! didnt notice before but each main fields tile is a clone of each other with same road networks but slightly different design to it. if i could dictate what tile sits where, ie have 4 red tiles in close proximation theoretically you could add some serious regional variations. like kilometres of a predominatly single field type. and not so random. but doing that wouldnt be too good the bigger the size of variation or collection of colour in 1 area is enough to make it start looking repeated which is what we want to avoid, the balance of what they have done is actually very good. suppose there is no harm in trying a few experiments with this with all your help & feedback. france is more appealing as a playground.

heres the 4 tiles ! they can all be interchanged . 1/8 scale
http://i.imgur.com/90vwc.jpg

if we had a few more tiles on offer one could make seriously elaborate scenery. im excited for the SDK.

philip.ed
05-26-2011, 05:03 PM
Looking at them, for an area with that many fields, there are far too many differently coloured fields, and there are some really odd colours going on there as well. Either way, the method they have employed does have it's merits.
An issues that I can see, though, is the 3-D grass. If one changes the colour of the tile/field, does this then change the colour of the associated grass/crop?
It certainly does look very interesting though. Roll on the SDK!

Ali Fish
05-26-2011, 05:11 PM
as far as i can tell the grass is independant but i might be wrong, ive no doubt it could though. . incidentaly in arma2 that effect does occur ! and going from high altitude to ground level see's a blend of 3 sources in that respect.

150GCT_Veltro
05-26-2011, 05:16 PM
This was the original tiles.

http://www.simhq.com/_air6/images/air_223a_002t.jpg

philip.ed
05-26-2011, 05:17 PM
At the moment, the game really needs a blue atmospheric haze to make the LoD a lot smoother and realistic.

With that in mind, Ali, have you seen this before?
http://www.windwardmark.net/products.php?page=windlight&sub=technology

(also, check out their nimble cloud-generator. It certainly looks good to my eyes. It's hard to tell if the effect is over the top or not, but I'd imagine it's adjustable)

EDIT-apart from the blue fields, the old tiles look much more realistic; clear areas of foliage and trees, and apparent borders to the fields as well.

Ali Fish
05-26-2011, 06:12 PM
This was the original tiles.

http://www.simhq.com/_air6/images/air_223a_002t.jpg

indeed it is. awesome!. and wow this explains alot of things. like why the trees were made the colour they were. where did u get that image from then ? its tilable so that must be from the devs?

150GCT_Veltro
05-26-2011, 07:24 PM
This tile has been posted several years ago from Oleg himself, to show us the way to work of these "symmetrical" tiles.

Somebody here could have a better one version of this file.

Ali Fish
05-26-2011, 07:25 PM
Somebody here could have a better one version of this file.



that would be great if sombody did. anyway lots of info to go on with. :)

RocketDog
05-26-2011, 07:36 PM
Roll on the SDK!

I half suspect that we'll never actually get an SDK given 1C's reduced manpower on CloD. The devs have so many other things to work on that it's unlikely they'll want to allocate manpower to building one. I guess it's years away if it ever appears.

RocketDog
05-26-2011, 07:40 PM
This was the original tiles.

http://www.simhq.com/_air6/images/air_223a_002t.jpg

The contrast between this and what we ended up with is pretty striking. This, to me, looks much better. It has hedges and believable greens. If you compare it to my Wiltshire photos the similarity is obvious. I wonder why they rejected this approach and went for the odd "crayon like" colours and layout of the final textures?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/RocketDog/DSC01817.jpg

philip.ed
05-26-2011, 08:15 PM
I think that they dropped this scheme to try and create a more 'tailored' terrain, whereby textures used were built from scratch do that they worked at all levels of altitude (with terrain textures based on photos/satellite images, you can get that horrible 2-D effect down low.) Having said that, it's only really the images of the trees which give this 2-D impression, and if the dark outlines of the trees were covered by trees or other foliage, I'd imagine it would work just like the current 'carpet' in CloD.

Also, I think as earlier Dev updates showed, the photo-type of textures just looked wrong without correct shaders or bumping.

Ali Fish
05-26-2011, 10:10 PM
darkening edges around roads and fields. it works in a way lol, the train line without sort of shows the difference.

http://i.imgur.com/jm2rVl.jpg (http://imgur.com/jm2rV)

41Sqn_Stormcrow
05-27-2011, 12:05 AM
I really appreciate your recent work but may I say that I feel the dark outlines of the roads to be too much? To me at least they now appear as having been drawn with a pencil.

About the hedges: this is something I miss a bit over England as it is very typical for this country side.

My suspicion is that they created tiles that they could use for France too.

Ali Fish
05-27-2011, 12:56 AM
yeh there too wide presently. it was a quick test.

Avala
05-27-2011, 05:23 AM
All in all, good work.

But why not making totally new, seamless, tileable set of textures, and their normal maps? Google Earth have very fine images of the corresponding terrain, which with some photoshop skills could be easily converted into textures.

In that way you can avoid stupid IL2 (used in enhanced il2 called “CoD”) texture placement, and make textures more blending one with another.

adonys
05-27-2011, 07:11 AM
IF it's true that Il2 CoD uses a single tileable texture to cover the terrain, we should request to be transformed into engine from that to use a series of textures (and have them all be the same texture as a start), so that we can modify them and make them different.

Ctrl E
05-27-2011, 11:07 AM
darkening edges around roads and fields. it works in a way lol, the train line without sort of shows the difference.

http://i.imgur.com/jm2rVl.jpg (http://imgur.com/jm2rV)

Every artist will always tell you that painting a small border around the ourside border always makes the image pop and stand out more. Darker trees will do that.

philip.ed
05-27-2011, 12:34 PM
I personally think that the darker borders look a lot better! :cool:

BigPickle
05-27-2011, 12:43 PM
darkening edges around roads and fields. it works in a way lol, the train line without sort of shows the difference.

http://i.imgur.com/jm2rVl.jpg (http://imgur.com/jm2rV)

Looks excellent Ali-Fish the colour contrasts and so on look stunning. GJ S!

GuillermoZS
05-27-2011, 08:26 PM
darkening edges around roads and fields. it works in a way lol, the train line without sort of shows the difference.

http://i.imgur.com/jm2rVl.jpg (http://imgur.com/jm2rV)

I really like it :) Can´t wait to test your mod m8

Tbag
05-30-2011, 11:25 AM
Look here: http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/bobtile.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/Fieldsb.jpg

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g260/restranger/Townb.jpg

Vengeanze
05-30-2011, 02:05 PM
WOW. Great pics. I want that in CloD.

philip.ed
05-30-2011, 02:26 PM
Rather than incorporating photo-shop edited satellite textures, I'd rather see those colours in CloD (except for the turquoise field which looks odd)
I think it's possible, and if done this way, you wouldn't get that horrible 2-D effect when flying at low altitude.

Tbag
05-30-2011, 02:29 PM
Those are early stage CloD tiles. In the first picture you can see that it is actually made up from 4 identical tiles

philip.ed
05-30-2011, 02:36 PM
Yeah, I remember them from the early updates. I also remember flying over them in Il-2 (modded) :-P For some reason though, the weird turqouise field always let it down. But the greens and browns look spot on. Replace the turqouise field with a wheat-coloured one, and it would look perfect (save for the repetitive pattern which you mentioned T-Bag. Were there more of these tiles? I can't remember now. I think the team scrapped this to try and go another route which had less of a repetitive aspect).

Wolf_Rider
05-30-2011, 02:38 PM
Looking good Ali...

need to get the "forest" a bit more mottled though and the fields a bit more earthy, but best and most noticeable... it can be seen that the plane camouflage is actually starting to work

Ali Fish
05-30-2011, 03:58 PM
it.d be great to use those images as base. but so much work removing trees. by the end you end up with not so dissimmilar to default textures if you take the shaders into account. but im still thinking about it. a way to darken all field edges realisticly and a prominant enough change to warrant a mod.

the trees are realisticly coloured in cod according to those image. maybe its the ground that does need changed as opposed to the trees. does that possible change work in with the current shader setup over 24hour cycle. lots of considerations. it'll never be realistic. always more artistic.

on the subject of allowed mods etc etc. these changes affect mutliplayer maps too on a visual basis. and using kegetys methods. so what does that mean. asides my own enjoyable adventures with it. its more impractical to create this mod at this time realisticly speaking.

Doc_uk
05-30-2011, 04:42 PM
I really like it :) Can´t wait to test your mod m8Somehow that doesnt look right

Tbag
05-30-2011, 04:44 PM
I think the turquoise field might be cabbage

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HXx0e6I2Kk4/Rfz5tq-VbrI/AAAAAAAAAB8/JCGwVofQO1M/s1600/S2p45235_Kohlfeld.jpg

http://topnews.in/law/files/cabbage-field.jpg

rollnloop
05-30-2011, 06:02 PM
Look excellent Ali, but a bit too dark now imho, especially trees. 1C's are too clear, yours are a bit too dark. What about "bottle green" http://www.minedirect.com/EnlargedPages/FacetCabbingRough/Moldavite/Moldavite-5.html ?

BigPickle
05-30-2011, 06:05 PM
if they were test tiles how come we ended up with what we have now, really strange, seems like a step backwards almost

GuillermoZS
05-31-2011, 02:07 AM
Somehow that doesnt look right

?? Why?
(I´m not a native English speaker...)

Doc_uk
05-31-2011, 09:36 AM
?? Why?
(I´m not a native English speaker...) The darkening edges around roads and fields,
looks like someone has gone round the feilds with with a black pen
is there one without the edges darkend, so i can compair

David198502
05-31-2011, 10:37 AM
This was the original tiles.

http://www.simhq.com/_air6/images/air_223a_002t.jpg

are the devs nuts to abandon this type of landscape!?
this actually looks soo much better than what we have now.
instead they decide to give us a landscape which looks painted by a hippy who took shrooms.

BigPickle
05-31-2011, 10:55 AM
hahaha yeah so true. maybe there was a problem with rendering those tiles, maybe someone could try them out ali ;)

Ali Fish
05-31-2011, 12:51 PM
cant use these tiles without re doing all the normal maps and alpha channels. the tiles have to work within the current shader system. not so easy as just putting them ingame im afraid.

Mad G
05-31-2011, 09:14 PM
Some Canon´s 1940_1941_Channel CAN pics at noon.

Although not so detailed at low level as CloD, has the overall feeling of the english countryside color and atmosphere.


http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/6637/grab0008p.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/864/grab0008p.jpg/)

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/6963/grab0009.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/864/grab0009.jpg/)

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/3125/grab0012.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/861/grab0012.jpg/)

Mad G
05-31-2011, 09:26 PM
Oops! Same post.

RocketDog
05-31-2011, 09:42 PM
Mad G,

Canon's map is much more like the real world that CloD's dismal effort. Compare it to the photographs taken over Wiltshire I posted earlier in this thread and you can see the similarity immediately. Canon has represented the terrain as it appears at about this time of year, before crops have been harvested and left brown stubble or earth fields.

I am at a loss to understand how CloD has ended up with less realistic terrain than IL-2 1946. They must have made a fundamentally bad design decision a couple of years ago and ended up stuck with what we have now. From what Ali says, it may be that the lighting they have used just can't do morning/evening as well as noon. It's one of those "what were they thinking?" moments.

philip.ed
05-31-2011, 10:01 PM
Actually, I disagree. Canon's map looks more like spring; the field textures are extremely saturated and green/yellow, which may show grass after it's been in the sun, but the lack of burnished crop fields (or any crop fields) represents the landscape one might see more in the spring.
Whilst I agree that it may look more like England, we have to realise that the texture transition is completely different; repretitive tiles are just horrible.
In some respects, the job the 352nd team did was better, but I just had a look at their textures, and they're really dark.

GuillermoZS
05-31-2011, 10:35 PM
The darkening edges around roads and fields,
looks like someone has gone round the feilds with with a black pen
is there one without the edges darkend, so i can compair

LOL haha
I thought you meant that it was what I was saying on my post that didn´t "look" right... Please, excuse my stupidity :)

Ekar
06-01-2011, 09:39 PM
Ali- great thread! :) Nice to see someone tackling the CloD terrain. I think there's potential to go pretty far with this but I imagine it will take some effort. My hunch is the terrain maps probably need to be redone from scratch with proper photographic elements and careful colour balancing in order to really sell the look of a photorealistic terrain. Anyway I'll be following this thread with keen interest. Inspiring stuff!

Cheers,
Ekar

vexx
06-03-2011, 07:24 PM
what .dds importer are you using? I tried the nvidia one last night in CS5 and had nothing but problems. When i tried to save i got a disk error with it.

Ali Fish
06-05-2011, 10:48 PM
cs5 & nvidia photoshop plugins for me both 64 and 32bit.

GOZR
06-06-2011, 01:08 AM
Me flying and you can see some greens ! ;) and haze layer

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp344/GOZR/DSC_0039.jpg

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp344/GOZR/DSC_0236.jpg

Letum
06-06-2011, 03:47 AM
That's not England or like England.

Plt Off JRB Meaker
06-06-2011, 09:05 AM
The members location is a bit of a give away lol.

Wolf_Rider
06-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Me flying and you can see some greens ! ;) and haze layer





now you're talkin' :-P

Ali Fish
06-06-2011, 02:06 PM
lovely shots GOZR.

when was the BOB, july 20th or 22nd ?

i suggest we all get airborne on that day this year and get our pictures. of england & france.

Mad G
06-06-2011, 02:46 PM
Oleg´s and Luthier´s inspiration for CloD map & textures.


http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5206/coreslq.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/269/coreslq.jpg/)

Ali Fish
06-06-2011, 03:06 PM
not like we've not seen that before. Do us all a favour MadG and piss off somewhere else thanks.

GilB57
06-06-2011, 03:07 PM
What do you think about this one :

http://img10.hostingpics.net/pics/958125WF44s01R.jpg

Ali Fish
06-06-2011, 03:13 PM
i like that overall style. yes. but remove the repetition. the devs created 4 tiles for that purpose. if you dont remove that its pointless imo. but nice all the same. i bet it doesnt look so good down low. inspiring !!! give us a low down 500 meter view please dont worry about the detail maps. id like to see how the colour from the tiled pictures looks down low.

Mad G
06-06-2011, 06:21 PM
not like we've not seen that before. Do us all a favour MadG and piss off somewhere else thanks.

I haven´t. Sorry for the piss, but I was under severe bladder pressure. It won´t happen here again.

skouras
06-06-2011, 07:14 PM
not like we've not seen that before. Do us all a favour MadG and piss off somewhere else thanks.

lol

GilB57
06-07-2011, 05:34 PM
if you dont remove that its pointless imo. but nice all the same
The shot came from IL2-1946.... (mod)
The purpose was just to know what do you think about the color range, mainly.
I would be happy to have those colors in CoD :-)

I can show a low alt. shot if you want, but I'm afraid it may be pointless, as you said ;)

Ali Fish
06-07-2011, 06:43 PM
yeh i initially thought someone put the real photograph tile images ingame. later i spotted the planes and presumed it was 46, i think the colour range is excellent. and its given me a few ideas tbh. XXXX loads of work though.

philip.ed
06-07-2011, 07:06 PM
The colour range is excellent. For summer, there'd need to be more brown/burnished fields, but then again, the sky looks overcast so my point here may be irrelevent.
I loved your work for 1946 Gilb ;)

mungee
06-07-2011, 07:41 PM
What do you think about this one :

http://img10.hostingpics.net/pics/958125WF44s01R.jpg

Wow! The colouring looks perfect in my opinion!!

Ali Fish
06-07-2011, 08:57 PM
Because we cant change building or trees placement etc yet ive gone the long route and made a master map of the original ingame map. this includes absolutely everything seperated, every asset, ive also taken the normal maps and used them over a base colour as a test for my own pseudo bumpmap effect on the diffuse.. after this is complete it should be a case of simple artisticly colouring everything. the detail is present obviously and works alongside the normal maps. its 4096 at present and requires splitting down into 4 x(2048x2048). its 600 meg presently lol.

but i'm well on the road to create somthing properly here which has been my hinderance so far. other notable point is we can sellect on a field by field. road by road basis for designing now. im not sure what to do with colours but what i could do is make ye old colouring in sheet if anyone wants to have a go. with a scaled image i can translate any field/colour patterns from that. ???
http://i.imgur.com/WxEZCl.jpg (http://imgur.com/WxEZC)

Ali Fish
06-07-2011, 09:16 PM
if anyone feels like helping save this and go colouring in !this image is basicly an outline of the roads system and indicating field placement mimmicking what we have presently. It would be great to see folks ideas. of some basic realistic colour blocks simulating field colours and patterns, is anyone up for helping ? dont forget each side matches with its opposite side.
to get full image click twice through Imgur, ive put the cod tiles up as an example. but its a basic solid colour field colours i need before any detail gets layed down.
http://i.imgur.com/qmKxKl.jpg (http://imgur.com/qmKxK)http://i.imgur.com/lxScKl.jpg

EDIT: you know , ive been staring at this clod map image for a while and well i think what we might dislike about it is the mix of colours evrywhere, theres to much red in with the green in with the yellows etc etc. to much clour design in each field basicly. anyway i hope some folks can do somthing nice with the fields. after that i will lay detail down on each individual field. and also invoke a proper system for darkening the field hedges and hedge row placement with a view to adding hedges in the future via more official moding methods. and after all this im going to implement my own normal maps which will have more presence. woohoo it got a bit stale there but this is quite a leap forward imo. as opposed to simply trying to recolour that is. ill produce some examples tommorows.

possible colour pallette?
http://i.imgur.com/AqO2V.jpg

pupaxx
06-08-2011, 10:36 AM
@ Ali,
grabbed 20 mins at work!
just a try
Cheers
6245

GilB57
06-08-2011, 11:11 AM
If it can help:

A few other shots:
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/587486testtex01.jpg

Late afternoon (low alt.)
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/689472testtex02.jpg

Early morning (low alt.)
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/769955testtex03.jpg

One thing I noticed as important to achieve a good result:
If I put a plane above the landscape, how does it look ?
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/626802testtex05.jpg
They should fit well together, I think (planes camouflage colors should be in landscape color palette.

Another rule I found useful : to avoid as much as possible REGULARITY :
So, in a tex-pack I use for a map, there are some nearly uniform ones, others with large fields pattern, others with little fields pattern. Then, landscape are a patch of all that mixed together (some kind of pattern inside pattern ;) )
... I was so disappointed with CoD landscape :(
(btw, I don't know constraints to make a CoD landscape... )

pupaxx
06-08-2011, 12:40 PM
6246

due the exiguity of field pattern and shape variation I suggest to limit the palette to:
2/3 textures for cultivated fields green hues (green hues)
2/3 textures for burned or plowed fields (brown hues)
1/2 textures for grass fields (pasture or uncultivated fields on green hues)
1/2 textures for wooded areas
cheers

Ali Fish
06-08-2011, 12:52 PM
due the exiguity of field pattern and shape variation I suggest to limit the palette to:
2/3 textures for cultivated fields green hues (green hues)
2/3 textures for burned or plowed fields (brown hues)
1/2 textures for grass fields (pasture or uncultivated fields on green hues)
1/2 textures for wooded areas
Agreed !^

wicked stuff pupaxx! Very interesting the way you have done it. kinda need basic solid colour pattern as opposed to the fields you have put on. but! i may try what you are doing when i get time.


GilB :cod restraints. the only restraints we have are that trees and buildings are layed upon our tiles. obviously we cant change that yet, so conformity to the current field pattern is necessary ohh and roads. concrete & dirt.

there are 4 field textures that are tilable, my images above show the 4 fitted together. 1C thereafter impose a system to use these 4 tiles tiled accross the whole country. as seen here http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=289247&postcount=150

pupaxx
06-08-2011, 01:03 PM
[QUOTE=Ali Fish;294719] but its a basic solid colour field colours i need before any detail gets layed down.QUOTE]

sorry, I had not read this..

Ali Fish
06-08-2011, 01:16 PM
thats alright. no need to apologise m8. its given me some ideas, which are very needed ! the reason is that ive got the ground detail planned already to some degree. like the pattern within the field itself etc etc

pupaxx
06-08-2011, 01:48 PM
solid colours
6247
i selected an average hue for each texture in my previous pict.
But I missed the relation between solid coloured areas and textured areas, how do they work?

Ali Fish
06-08-2011, 02:29 PM
well what im going to try is to add the texture detail over the solid colours, that info needs to be taken from the normal channels with a mix of my own art. theres a pic a few posts back of me in photoshop with solid colour and some texture lighting that should explain what im gona try. with your image try not mix more than 2 fields of same colour next to each other. and atleasst 2 light coloured fields in every quadrant. appreciate you thoughts on this pupaxx !

also im realising the the mimmick of the alpha channel needs split up more. like it is on the right hand image. Doh.

pupaxx
06-08-2011, 04:18 PM
@Ali
about 'same colored adiacent fields' my thougt is I would avoid to fragment too much the fields, I'm afraid of patch-work looking.
In the pict below u can clearly see a lot of adiacent fields of the same color, they are differentiated by edge row, trees and so on. Here's why I made in this way. i'm with u it doesn't look good without edgerow and trees layer.
6249

cheers

Ali Fish
06-08-2011, 06:09 PM
yeh agreed on too much fragmented is bad. roads between is currently a good thing tbh given lack of hedge rows. i believe that for those field areas without roads between a simple slight hue change would be good. i think half the problem with the original textures is fragmented nature. radical changes from 1 field to the next adjacent. think i might try 3 similar green everywhere on the map and break it up with the rest. top left quadrant must be fragmented as much as possible. the other quadrants can be "not as fragmented. 1 quadrant should have higher frequency lighter fields.

GilB57
06-08-2011, 07:40 PM
GilB :cod restraints. the only restraints we have are that trees and buildings are layed upon our tiles. obviously we cant change that yet, so conformity to the current field pattern is necessary ohh and roads. concrete & dirt.

there are 4 field textures that are tilable, my images above show the 4 fitted together. 1C thereafter impose a system to use these 4 tiles tiled accross the whole country

Does this mean that , currently, the roads/buildings pattern repeats the same all other the countryside ?
If only 4 different tiles can be possible, I suppose they have to be chosen very carefully (and also very contrasting to each other) ?

The landscape appeared to me very repetitive (not in the details but in the overall look) but I didn't knew why. Well I'll need to look more downside with my Hurricane I suppose ;)

Ali Fish
06-08-2011, 11:03 PM
well theres 4 for the fields. several for the towns, industrial, cities (london), trees etc and france has the same seperatly.

Ekar
06-09-2011, 11:19 AM
Ali- what's the resolution currently of each map tile? Is it 2048?

I've been thinking about having a go in the way that puppax has above, using photographic elements but with the aim of trying to fit them as best I can to the areas designated in the original layouts. I'm not sure whether to go ahead with a 4k resolution per tile or 2k just yet. I'm wondering if it may be better to go with 4k, that way you could have your colour map at 2k in game and possibly(?!) a 4k normal map that was generated from the colour map? It's a bit of a crazy thought really but that would give you a bit more detail down low when flying. It's just a thought (probably more of a brain fart). I'm not even sure if CloD handles 4k textures at present.

Ali Fish
06-09-2011, 12:39 PM
well doubling the size is a nice idea but by gcard texture memory wont cut it given how its running presently. i could be wrong though as i often am.

imo photographic work is a no go. 1C would have tried this along time ago. they did start with photography but ended up with what we have for numerous reasons. but i'd love to see anyone try !.

Ekar
06-09-2011, 01:50 PM
Cheers Ali. :)

I agree that it's probably unwise to tempt any further performance headaches by using 4k maps ingame.

I guess I'm interested in trying out a photographic collage/layering approach here as what turned me off originally about the CloD maps was the hand painted feel. Is there any other reason (apart from the insane amount of time this would take to do properly within the guidelines of the current layouts) that you would advise against this approach?

Ali Fish
06-09-2011, 02:36 PM
Cheers Ali. :)

Is there any other reason (apart from the insane amount of time this would take to do properly within the guidelines of the current layouts) that you would advise against this approach?

no reason. its technically daunting on one hand but very possible on the other depending upon the approach and consistancy.

Ali Fish
06-10-2011, 04:06 PM
meh !!! :( lol id be lying to say i liked this. but thought i'd show it anyways.

http://i.imgur.com/RTYDil.jpg (http://imgur.com/RTYDi)http://i.imgur.com/QoPZal.jpg (http://imgur.com/QoPZa)
http://i.imgur.com/Obexal.jpg (http://imgur.com/Obexa)http://i.imgur.com/dUjFSl.jpg (http://imgur.com/dUjFS)

pupaxx
06-10-2011, 04:17 PM
6253

Anyway, field patterns are too much unrealistic to be belivable.

Ali Fish
06-10-2011, 04:30 PM
nice job, my effort was about 20 mins, I would like to pop yours in the game when its ready ! this was what mine looked like for that test.

http://i.imgur.com/Ackfll.jpg (http://imgur.com/Ackfl)

philip.ed
06-10-2011, 04:40 PM
How would it look if the various greens and browns were taken directly from a photo? (using the photoshop colour grabber or whatever it's called)

Ali Fish
06-10-2011, 04:49 PM
pretty much the same. ingame shaders render what ever colour you pick irrelevant. its the association between all the colours that important. with my test i did i keep it as simple as possible, low range of colours, more consistancy over the pattern of the same colours. also less fields adjacent to different fields. some aspects of it have worked and some not. another aspect im particularly unhappy with is tree placement. so those light coloured fields need to be dark where there are trees. without knowing where trees are placed thats gona be a hard task. another aspect i take from this is that the range of colours the mottled effect on 1C textures destroys the feel of the field so more solid definitive field colour the better. 1 aspect of S.E england scenery is that its not all fields. if they had included a wild countryside tile the scenery in general would be better.

to be honest i just want to make a brand new scenery from scratch.

pupaxx
06-10-2011, 05:09 PM
How would it look if the various greens and browns were taken directly from a photo? (using the photoshop colour grabber or whatever it's called)

I sampled the colors from this picts
6258

6259

6260

but, yes the result is not full convincing :(

philip.ed
06-10-2011, 05:51 PM
Yeah, they look completely different to your one :? (not your fault, really)
The last sample to me screams summer, although a mix of all three would look awesome.

vexx
06-10-2011, 09:45 PM
meh !!! :( lol id be lying to say i liked this. but thought i'd show it anyways.




This is why i gave up. Seems like everything i did either made things worse or just didn't look right. I finally settled with just darkening my trees and taking all of the excess yellow out of the existing textures and calling it a day.

I was using exact samples of aerial photo's and once in game it looked like crap. I even went so far as taking some actual satellite imagery just to see how real life colors would look in game regardless of nothing else matching and the colors still looked terrible. I finally came to the conclusion that there is either something majorly wrong with the lighting or shaders.

pupaxx
06-10-2011, 10:28 PM
Ali please,
would you make a simple test 4 the community?
Try to load into CloD this sole texture
6262
just to verify the output given by game shaders. It's a waste of time create a patchwork if we can't control the output color.
As I told before, I sampled the colors in this way.
6263

Thanks

Cobra8472
06-11-2011, 02:04 AM
Ali Fish, your screenshots actually give me a more realistic impression than what is currently in game.

I hope you ARE treating these as diffuse textures however. Do not expect shaders or normal maps to add all the detail for you, most of it is always in the diffuse.

You need to fill those tiles out with detail and or real image overlays.

Keep it up, in any case. :)

adonys
06-12-2011, 01:57 PM
Ali, can't you release at least the darker trees first, please, while you're working on a full terrain mod?

pretty please :)

Ali Fish
06-12-2011, 10:44 PM
Ali, can't you release at least the darker trees first, please, while you're working on a full terrain mod?

pretty please :)

the thread titles Forrest Green is a darker trees mod. no point in having 2.

adonys
06-13-2011, 03:43 PM
they are not so good as the ones I've seen in your mod, sir. The replacement tree model is not fitting with the rest of the trees.

PS: the ones from this (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=288378&postcount=189) post, please

http://i.imgur.com/9I33nl.jpg http://i.imgur.com/O4uzll.jpg

pupaxx
06-13-2011, 07:26 PM
Hey Ali,
I catched your secret! U re not alone anymore!;)
..just some test to evaluate how shaders alter the color palette...
I think googled picts are a good base to start.
I have some rudiment in 3dsmax and renderings, I think the 'Field' material in Clod is too much reflessive, it should be a matte material.
6315
but I have no idea how shaders work :(

I'll post more later

Ali Fish
06-13-2011, 07:35 PM
haha good stuff :) i like those colours. bit low res but the googley style images in there are ok colour wise. we cant have trees in the texture though !.

shaders :

diffuse = texture
alpha of diffuse = NO IDEA. maybe lighting orientated (specular brightening ?)
_N variation files are the normal channells. (RGB specific) and they produce an element of height mapping to the texture from the general lighting.

philip.ed
06-13-2011, 07:46 PM
I think that shows that the colour has to be tweaked a lot to fit in the game, as to me, the colours from google-earth don't look very realistic. It's hard to explain how you'd expect the colours to look; you really have to flie over the terrain in real-life for yourself, but the ambience is similar in some respects to RoF.

pupaxx
06-13-2011, 08:09 PM
_N is the bump equivalent effect in 3dsmax

pupaxx
06-13-2011, 08:12 PM
the colours from google-earth don't look very realistic. It's hard to explain how you'd expect the colours to look;

+1 the mix should be 1 drop of googled textures and 100 of artistic feeling.. but u may not match the community agreement!:)

pupaxx
06-13-2011, 10:20 PM
some more
6319
6320

dds_test3 with darkened trees.
Good night

Wolf_Rider
06-14-2011, 06:45 AM
1 of 2 is looking better (original COD trees?)

throw a splatter of browns into the trees and darken the ground a tad and things could be well on the way


shots in post #242...

ground (original COD textures ?) is looking "toned down" but still too yellow - even though it is an example shot of what darkening the trees does

David198502
06-14-2011, 08:34 AM
some more
6319
6320

dds_test3 with darkened trees.
Good night

i think colourwise the second shot with the darkened trees looks way better than what we have now.