4.12.2 de-bugging

[ElAurens]

As a very dedicated P40 flier I have to concur with your observation.

The P 40 has a glass jaw engine damage model, and always has, ditto the one hit damage to control functions. It is very perplexing, as other less robust allied fighters (Spitfire and Yaks, for example) do not show this.

This has been brought up many times over the years, so now I expect that:

A: The "learn to fly" excuse will be used as it often is.

B: Someone with knowledge of the DM will point out that some critical part of the engine, and or flight control system, has a big red target painted on it, or has a magic bullet magnet installed as original equipment.

C: Pilot accounts cannot be taken at face value as we all know that the men that actually went in to combat with these aircraft were just kids and knew nothing about their mounts.

D: Nothing will change.

[Tempest123]

The Mossie Mk. XVII when flown by AI pilots can't hit ships with the cannon, the AI will open fire very late ina dive with the .303s and the cannnon, but the cannon of course has a lower trajectory so it never hits the target. Building a Banff Strike Wing mission and this bug is a deal breaker for the Mossie, the FB Mk.IV with 60lb rockets is much more effective.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

As a very dedicated P40 flier I have to concur with your observation.

I'm glad it's not just me.

The "glass jaw" effect for the P-40 seems to carry through not just to the old "late P-40"models, but also into the somewhat newer Hawk 81/P-40C models (although the cockpit modeling is a huge improvement in the P-40C model - the P-40M's cockpit has big dark posts which really interfere with forward visibility and the gauges are hard to read).

Just now, I found myself getting shot to pieces in a P-40C by a bunch of rookie Ki-21 gunners. Single rifle caliber MG hits, usually taking hits from dead ahead so the engine block and cockpit armor is in the way of the shots, yet the P-40 consistently gets some combination of aileron, elevator and/or elevator controls destroyed, which is extremely improbable.

Additionally, I've notice that hits from head on somehow shred the rudder! Realistically, the only part of the vertical stabilizer assembly that could possible get damaged from a head-on shot is the leading edge, yet the damage model shows my entire rudder surface being shredded! Strange that a) that part gets hit as often as it does, b) that the damage model doesn't show damage to the vertical stabilizer and not just the control surfaces.

Originally Posted by ElAurens

This has been brought up many times over the years, so now I expect that:

A: The "learn to fly" excuse will be used as it often is.

I'll freely admit that I'm not a natural-born pilot. I get shot to pieces in all kinds of airplanes, so I'm something of an expert in knowing how different planes react when they got shot up.

Overall, it seems like "X controls destroyed" hits are far too common given the size of control runs relative to the rest of the plane and the fact that there were often redundant systems.

Likewise, it seems that badly damaged engines shut down way to fast. It seems strange that a machine which weighs hundreds of pounds and produces hundreds of HP of torque would instantly stop spinning, especially when the drive shaft is several inches thick and mostly encased within the engine block.

This effect is particularly pronounced in the Bf-109 where the engine will sometimes just stop when you get hit. No screech and whine from a tortured engine before it dies. It just stops.

Originally Posted by ElAurens

B: Someone with knowledge of the DM will point out that some critical part of the engine, and or flight control system, has a big red target painted on it, or has a magic bullet magnet installed as original equipment.

I wish. At least with evidence there's a chance that TD might actually fix it. I'm hoping they'll do a really close review of the P-40 series for the next patch to go with the corrected late P-40 model.

Originally Posted by ElAurens

C: Pilot accounts cannot be taken at face value as we all know that the men that actually went in to combat with these aircraft were just kids and knew nothing about their mounts.

Combat pilot's accounts will be biased by memory and lack of experience with planes other than the types they flew and fought against. I tend to trust reports by test pilots more.

But, at least we no longer have to worry about options that basically boil down to:

"This was Western propaganda; lies just put in the pilot's manual and numerous technical reports in order to give the deluded capitalist running dog stooge pilots false confidence in their completely inferior equipment."

or,

"This Soviet technical report, based on a clapped-out airplane assembled and maintained by mechanics who'd never seen the plane before, flown using 87 octane gas diluted with yak urine, is the definitive word on this plane's performance."

Originally Posted by ElAurens

D: Nothing will change.

I hope this time it will be different.

[ECV56_Guevara]

Don t know if this is a bug...
Friday nigth coop with my squad, Berlin campaign.
About 16/18 pilots online plus several AIs.
wheather: fog
Massive freeze.
We were flyng these campaing for about 20 missions or more, with 4.12/4.12.1. It wasn´t a connection issue, we all got green squares, suddendly it locks for a few pilots, then, after a few seconds, all got freeze. We guessed it was the weather and the heavy map, but it was weird, so, we have to report it, maybe it´s something related to the patch.

PD: Bomb delay not saved still present.

[Pursuivant]

More about the P-40 series.

Despite being described as a plane with "no vices" (Caldwell) it seems to be very difficult to recover from a high speed spin even when applying proper technique to stop it (kill throttle, full opposite rudder).

This despite the pilot's manual (here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/117829198/...-40-Warhawk-WW) stating that it should be possible to recover from a spin within 2 turns and 1-2,000 feet (~330-660 meters) loss of altitude. They don't say whether it's a low or high speed spin, however.

While it's for an earlier model, the pilot's notes for the Tomahawk (http://www.456fis.org/P-40_PILOT_MANUAL.htm) indicate that the plane should come out of the spin unless held. This seems different from my experience.

Using arcade mode, I'm noticing that I'm getting pilot kill hits from rifle-caliber MG shots directly from ahead or behind (through the front of the cockpit or fuselage), despite the fact that all but the Hawk 81/P-40A-B/Kittyhawk series the P-40 had armor or armor glass in those areas. (1.5 inches of armor glass, 7 mm of armor below the cockpit combing down to the engine block, 7 mm behind the pilot. The pilot's seat wasn't armored, however.)

Additionally, any hit to the front of the engine through the prop boss instantly (or nearly instantly) kills the engine.

Any hit from the front through the radiator housing kills the oil/cooling system, resulting in engine shutdown within about a minute. While this is legitimate, it's possible that the damage boxes for the cooler system are larger than they were in real life (see diagrams in the pilot's manual).

Reading maintenance manuals for the P-40, it appears that the coolant assemblies got slightly larger in later models but the oil cooler got smaller. The P-40D & E models have a frontal coolant radiator surface area of 1.11 square feet. The P-40F model has a frontal coolant radiator surface of 1.75 feet. The oil cooler is 95 square inches on the D & E models, 35 square inches on the F.

I'm still hunting on info about the armor around the P-40's engine.

Also, for a time U.S. P-40s in the U.S. were using 91 or 92 octane gas to preserve the 100 octane gas for flights in combat zones. I've seen, but can't find, comparative numbers for P-40 performance using both 100 and 91/92 octane fuel. It would be nice if it was possible to choose your fuel type, and it would definitely reduce arguments regarding aircraft performance.

[sniperton]

Old bug, dunno whether reported before:

Normandy map, near Caen, to the South of Louvigny, at 76.5:59.1, a wrong object, a vehicular road bridge is connecting two rail sections, making East-West rail traffic practically impossible for the whole Caen region.

[idefix44]

Originally Posted by sniperton

Old bug, dunno whether reported before:

Normandy map, near Caen, to the South of Louvigny, at 76.5:59.1, a wrong object, a vehicular road bridge is connecting two rail sections, making East-West rail traffic practically impossible for the whole Caen region.

Near this bridge, going west, at Eterville, a house at 75,36:59,36 and a shack at 75,47:59,47 straddle the railway.
I guess that they don't help the traffic...

[sniperton]

Yep

Originally Posted by sniperton

Old bug, dunno whether reported before:

Normandy map, near Caen, to the South of Louvigny, at 76.5:59.1, a wrong object, a vehicular road bridge is connecting two rail sections, making East-West rail traffic practically impossible for the whole Caen region.

Originally Posted by idefix44

Near this bridge, going west, at Eterville, a house at 75,36:59,36 and a shack at 75,47:59,47 straddle the railway.
I guess that they don't help the traffic...

When 4.13 comes out (in two weeks, for sure), we'll see what happened to them

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by sniperton

When 4.13 comes out (in two weeks, for sure), we'll see what happened to them

Maybe those misplaced railroad bridges and buildings represent the work of the French Resistance!

Very clever Maquis, to replace a road bridge with a railroad bridge and to make buildings straddle the rail line, rather than just using dynamite!

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Using arcade mode, I'm noticing that I'm getting pilot kill hits from rifle-caliber MG shots directly from ahead or behind (through the front of the cockpit or fuselage), despite the fact that all but the Hawk 81/P-40A-B/Kittyhawk series the P-40 had armor or armor glass in those areas. (1.5 inches of armor glass, 7 mm of armor below the cockpit combing down to the engine block, 7 mm behind the pilot. The pilot's seat wasn't armored, however.)

Additionally, any hit to the front of the engine through the prop boss instantly (or nearly instantly) kills the engine.

Any hit from the front through the radiator housing kills the oil/cooling system, resulting in engine shutdown within about a minute. While this is legitimate, it's possible that the damage boxes for the cooler system are larger than they were in real life (see diagrams in the pilot's manual).

There are a lot of problems with the 3D model for the P-40E and M... both are getting a make over for a future patch. Totally new 3D mesh and damage model systems... I don't know for a fact but I would make a guess that this may help with the poor damage modeling.