4-12 wish list (Merged)

[Blakhart]

Hello!

4.10.1 was a big step for quality of offline flying ( new AI ).

4.11.1 is a big step for more real on-line playing ( engine managment ).


What is now needed ???


I m flying il2 few years, stock, mod versions, dgf, coop, virt fronts, campaigns, duels, etc. everything...

4.10 brings different damage model ( from +/-G) but didnt changed behave of a pilot.


Its now most biggest bug!!!

Some planes like Tempest, FW, P51 etc. can be easily destroyed by too much G without ANY warning from grey out or black out effecting on a pilot.

What I want to say is that in real pilot feels on himself when he pull too much, when he needs to stop use more G and in game is like.

+1,+2,+3,+4,+5 ---> nothing happen
etc,etc+ crash!!!

Plane damaged or even without wing ;/.


Its stupid, unrealistic. Pilot should feel G on himself from about 5-6 G to know he pull too much.

6-7 little grey out on corners and 8-10 G few seconds ok and more and more grey screen.

Now you can pull hard on FW and destroy wings WITHOUT any grey out even ;/, leave your wings on Tempest with only few neg G ;(.


So:
- more realistic G which have more effect on pilot, now il2 pilot is like a terminator with G-suit

( if its possible to add, slower 6DOF working with lots of G, its f*king hard to track your target when you are in hard turn with 4-6 G!!!, With 5-7 g its hard to move your arms, so imagine how hard to use your neck!!!)

(* adding fatigue factor to il2 pilot behave ---> more hard G, less strengh for flying, for example 5 min of 5-6, 7-8 G fight ==> total exhausted organism, not enough strengh to pull more like with soft bleeding or pilot hit )

I know that game have its limits. I dont expect miracles. I just wanted to show where you can look in future.



Its my feelings based on real flying vs il2. I dont want to talk about my life on forum, but if crew daidalos is interested about opinion I can share my experience on pm.

[Aviar]

Good post Blakhart. In addition to visual cues, what do you think about some additional aural cues?

We already have some structural stress cues in the form of airframe 'creaking', but maybe this can be further tweaked. I mean, if we are going to 'bend the airframe' as the 4.10 Guide states, then maybe a little more warning could be helpful.

In the 4.10 Guide it states that if '...you have exceeded the “in service” limit (G's), you will hear a damage sound cue and suffer a slight aerodynamic penalty.'

Well, by that time it's too late. wouldn't some additional 'stress' warnings BEFORE actual damage be helpful here?

Also, how about some cues from our virtual pilot? I've played some flight sims where the pilot will give the player cues in the form of heavy breathing/groaning as the G's become more intense. This 'breathing/groaning' can possibly warn us BEFORE we damage the airframe.

Aviar

[JtD]

The pilot starts to suffer from g's at about 4g. Typical fighter air frames can take 8g without problem. However, humans can take very high g loads without problem if they occur over a short time, while the airframe can't. It's the same in game. If you're in a sustained manoeuvre you won't damage the airframe, the pilot will grey out, black out or red out long before damage occurs, however, if you throw the plane into a sudden manoeuvre, it may break before you get the visual clues. This is right because the body won't show a reaction within a split second.

[Blakhart]

JtD, to be honest you start to have problems with moving your head with 3G.

With 4 G its hard.

With 5 G it becomes frustrating and after 5 min hard turn to turn manouvering you become tired.

Add battle stres and G effecting on a body, heart beat, etc.

With training you can improve your toughness but you still have some limits.

"However, humans can take very high g loads without problem if they occur over a short time, while the airframe can't. It's the same in game. If you're in a sustained manoeuvre you won't damage the airframe, the pilot will grey out, black out or red out long before damage occurs, however, if you throw the plane into a sudden manoeuvre, it may break before you get the visual clues. This is right because the body won't show a reaction within a split second."

Not true...

And its not something I read in books.


You feel high G instantly. Even it is few seconds manouver your body, organism gonna feel growing up G at about 5-6.

It wont made you grey out, etc. but you gonna feel it. And definitly you gonna feel when G starts to be about 7-8 G.


Aviar would be best to talk about it on TS. What you think about it ?
I think some red aura without decrasing player screen when G have about 5-7 would be good.

[JtD]

You're talking about a few seconds, I'm talking about a split second. Try to maintain 5-6g for a few seconds in game, your pilot will grey out, and the plane will stay intact.

Outside of some simple force feedback there's no "feel" output on most computers. That's a shortcoming software alone can't fix.

[Ventura]

Concur with both BlakHart and Aviar.
Unless that little 'G' letter is neon and or larger, I ain't gonna know until it's too late and the structural damage occurs.

Just yesterday, I was battling vs a FW-190 (breather) in a tight maneuver, my vision was focused on the FW and had not noticed that flashing 'G' until I heard the groan-snap and it had happened. Placing that little 'G' anywhere else may loose the immersion of the moment. Earlier frame sounds and/or pilot breathing is probably best solution.

[Aviar]

Originally Posted by JtD

Outside of some simple force feedback there's no "feel" output on most computers. That's a shortcoming software alone can't fix.

With all due respect, this discussion is exactly about trying to 'fix' the shortcomings of our software.

Your last sentence sounds like a person who has given up. Personally, I don't feel like that. I think more can be done to help give the player just a little more of that 'feeling' of being a real-life pilot.

I know I'm just a person sitting in front of a monitor, playing a game. However, sometimes....just sometimes, there are those magical moments when reality slips away and you are really there.....cruising over the Solomons, 1944....landing on a forgotten runway in the Crimea on a cold winter morning.

What we are talking about here are possibilities that can create more of those magical moments. What we need are people who still believe in those possibilities.

Aviar

[Whacker]

Originally Posted by Aviar

With all due respect, this discussion is exactly about trying to 'fix' the shortcomings of our software.

Your last sentence sounds like a person who has given up. Personally, I don't feel like that. I think more can be done to help give the player just a little more of that 'feeling' of being a real-life pilot.

I know I'm just a person sitting in front of a monitor, playing a game. However, sometimes....just sometimes, there are those magical moments when reality slips away and you are really there.....cruising over the Solomons, 1944....landing on a forgotten runway in the Crimea on a cold winter morning.

What we are talking about here are possibilities that can create more of those magical moments. What we need are people who still believe in those possibilities.

Aviar

He is right though. There is absolutely zero substitute for the physical sensations that come along with actual flight. Vibrations, jostling, g-forces, the sounds, smells, all of it makes the experience complete and whole.

That said, agree with your statements. We recognize those limitations, and we do our best within the bounds we have to make the best possible approximation of reality. I think the other major aspect of immersion is what you said, which I would phrase as a "willingness" to allow oneself to be in a certain mindset. I've gotten mildly airsick a few rare times when going nuts during dogfights. I've experienced vertigo, and find myself tilting my head in turns. I've jumped half out of my chair a few times when I suddenly get peppered with bullets and I wasn't expecting anything at all. All in all it's a two way street.

[JtD]

I certainly haven't "given up". I haven't overstressed an airframe for ages. And I don't want a heavy breather on my PC speakers. And you'd still rip off your wings before a breathing sample is played.
You're trying to solve a problem I don't perceive as a problem any more, and I don't like the suggested solutions. So what you are suggesting would make it in fact worse for me. I've been thinking about this a lot with 4.10, I and the most desirable solution was to adjust my flying style.

[SPAD-1949]

I often thought about a additional device to handle G-forces for the player.
Something like an addductor training device which is posed between your knees and has to be pressed to keep grey or black out away. It stresses the whole lower belly and inner shank muscles and it would induce battle fatigue on a very natural way and gives advantage to the user with much experiance because of the training effect that comes along with excessive use The design should enable pedal use and can be adjusted to personal preferences.
For those online players who dont use that device blackout occurs at an average level and those who use it can experience faster blackout or if trained way delayed effects.