Very short development update

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

That's quite a romantic view, but far from the truth. Maybe it was in the very beginning, and god knows how long it took them to develop the first IL-2 engine, but over all those years they could have invested their results better. Sometime the arrogance and egotism of one is cause of a lot of trouble, knowing when to step down in favour of a professional who can manage things in a better direction is a hard step to take, but sometimes a necessary one. And I'm saying this with no bitter feelings, it's just an objective observation on the conduct of a company (because Maddox Games is a company).



we bypassed the publisher BS here, we went straight to the source. What do you know about what/how/when they get paid, and why would it matter? Remember that what's a hobby to us is a job to them, they aren't doing it in their spare time.

Every software house is made of human beings, some are managed more efficiently than others. There is a lot of cloud networking being done today (look at the excellent Daidalos Team), so it's not even a matter of having to be in the office or speak the same language.

Man, I have worked in the industry myself. And attitudes like yours is exactly the reason why I left it. Game development is one of the toughest jobs out there from all the ones available, chronically underpaid and overtime being the excepted norm without compensation payment. That was even the case in Germany, I do not even want to know how this works in Russia. You only enter the business because you have fun developing games in general, for sure not for the money.

If you can't accept the simulation business being a very rough and small one, instead expecting german Mittelstand like cynism and clinical performance you have the wrong hobby, that simple.

[Querer]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Man, I have worked in the industry myself. And attitudes like yours is exactly the reason why I left it. Game development is one of the toughest jobs out there from all the ones available, chronically underpaid and overtime being the excepted norm without compensation payment. That was even the case in Germany, I do not even want to know how this works in Russia. You only enter the business because you have fun developing games in general, for sure not for the money.

If you can't accept the simulation business being a very rough and small one, instead expecting german Mittelstand like cynism and clinical performance you have the wrong hobby, that simple.

You're right, but we can still expect from the company selling software to do the best job possible. If this is not possible due to whatever reason, the customer decide whether to buy it or not, so basically it is each ones own fault in buying the software although it is crap, especially with forums filled with threads about the bugs of the software. However, in today's world, no one of the developer has then to complain about not making enough money due to low sell rates, that's life as well. If they do not want to keep up with the standarts we are used to, bad luck, sooner or later they are not able to sell anything anymore. Sadly, I see more and more companies drifting towards mean quality standarts and more and more people who accept this and even justify this by comments as above. I am sorry for the poor working conditions in this branch of software development, but honestly, I also have to take extra care that I do not do anything wrong in my job, even if this goes with unpaid extra hours. So what? Quality is what makes the products more valuable over others, if you don't want to stick to this, it's your choice but you have to life with the outcome.
Comments like the one from Luthier are funny in a way, as we all know that they try hard to get this new sound engine implemented and are fed up with all the questions about the progress, but if we are absolutely strict, comments like this are just a offense to us customers as a proper sound engine should have been part of the initial release product. As already some people mentioned, for other products we are as well not willing to accept an unfinished one being sold as finished. And I am sure, that Luthier would as well complain if his OS would be as buggy as his game. The difference? The big company behind the OS? Simply not a valuable argument, as there are example of small software companies offering products almost free of bugs...
Well, enough text now, I belong to the group of customers buying CloD with knowing about all the bugs and I still got several hours fun out of it and thanks to the fact that there are other things in life, I am waiting for the updates

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Querer

You're right, but we can still expect from the company selling software to do the best job possible. If this is not possible due to whatever reason, the customer decide whether to buy it or not, so basically it is each ones own fault in buying the software although it is crap, especially with forums filled with threads about the bugs of the software. However, in today's world, no one of the developer has then to complain about not making enough money due to low sell rates, that's life as well. If they do not want to keep up with the standarts we are used to, bad luck, sooner or later they are not able to sell anything anymore. Sadly, I see more and more companies drifting towards mean quality standarts and more and more people who accept this and even justify this by comments as above. I am sorry for the poor working conditions in this branch of software development, but honestly, I also have to take extra care that I do not do anything wrong in my job, even if this goes with unpaid extra hours. So what? Quality is what makes the products more valuable over others, if you don't want to stick to this, it's your choice but you have to life with the outcome.
Comments like the one from Luthier are funny in a way, as we all know that they try hard to get this new sound engine implemented and are fed up with all the questions about the progress, but if we are absolutely strict, comments like this are just a offense to us customers as a proper sound engine should have been part of the initial release product. As already some people mentioned, for other products we are as well not willing to accept an unfinished one being sold as finished. And I am sure, that Luthier would as well complain if his OS would be as buggy as his game. The difference? The big company behind the OS? Simply not a valuable argument, as there are example of small software companies offering products almost free of bugs...
Well, enough text now, I belong to the group of customers buying CloD with knowing about all the bugs and I still got several hours fun out of it and thanks to the fact that there are other things in life, I am waiting for the updates

I think you are saddling the horse from the rear here. It is not like we buy this Sim out of pure altruism. Ppl here "want" that Sim and given there is no alternative out there, argueing on a "oh, so they failed, bad luck, let's move on" is not exactly the most smart way to apporach this issue. Sure, if you go by this "customer is always right" principle, then you certainly have a point. But in it's final consequence, that would mean, no Sim at all. Purely personal opinion here, but I rather have a flawed product with ppl working on it to solve the issue then no product at all. And it is not as if those folks, as many times metioned before, do not have a history of delivering.

Imho, a lot of trust and perspective here is simply destoyed by people that obviously consider market principles of a higher value then having a flight Sim.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Man, I have worked in the industry myself. And attitudes like yours is exactly the reason why I left it. Game development is one of the toughest jobs out there from all the ones available, chronically underpaid and overtime being the excepted norm without compensation payment. That was even the case in Germany, I do not even want to know how this works in Russia. You only enter the business because you have fun developing games in general, for sure not for the money.

If you can't accept the simulation business being a very rough and small one, instead expecting german Mittelstand like cynism and clinical performance you have the wrong hobby, that simple.

Bewolf, being a programmer is a job like many other chronically underpaid there, with no overtime and extra compensations.

It's called gaming industry, you're selling an entertainment product, but you're actually working and being paid for its development. If you couldn't get a good deal and didn't agree with the mentality it's down to your managing line, not to the customers.

Let's put things into the right perspective here: while we're talking here there are constantly half a million people playing with Call of Duty: Black Ops (and this is only a datum for the PS3 users), a game that is as addictive as crystal meth and that, as an expert, you know better than me that it didn't take them long to develop.

Our sims are just a minute niche compared to these monsters, and as that is not enough, the complicated work behind sims is way more demanding in terms of resources than any FPS, which just needs some cinematic looks and some graphic/gameplay gizmos, other than an extensive beta testing.

As a consequence you will need a way more efficient team, but above all managing, of the resources you have to develop a simulator. The extra drive has to come from passion, otherwise you're gonna end up hospitalised with a bad nervous breakdown.

The world of simulation is a different and complicated one, but if anything it needs some extra firm, careful managing, both in the production line and in the public relations.

[furbs]

Luthier should of posted a couple of samples of the new sound. that would of more than satisfied most here.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Bewolf, being a programmer is a job like many other chronically underpaid there, with no overtime and extra compensations.

It's called gaming industry, you're selling an entertainment product, but you're actually working and being paid for its development. If you couldn't get a good deal and didn't agree with the mentality it's down to your managing line, not to the customers.

Let's put things into the right perspective here: while we're talking here there are constantly half a million people playing with Call of Duty: Black Ops (and this is only a datum for the PS3 users), a game that is as addictive as crystal meth and that, as an expert, you know better than me that it didn't take them long to develop.

Our sims are just a minute niche compared to these monsters, and as that is not enough, the complicated work behind sims is way more demanding in terms of resources than any FPS, which just needs some cinematic looks and some graphic/gameplay gizmos, other than an extensive beta testing.

As a consequence you will need a way more efficient team, but above all managing, of the resources you have to develop a simulator. The extra drive has to come from passion, otherwise you're gonna end up hospitalised with a bad nervous breakdown.

The world of simulation is a different and complicated one, but if anything it needs some extra firm, careful managing, both in the production line and in the public relations.

Spot on. And now go the extra step and think this through a bit further. As the Sim business is such a niche genre without huge amounts of money to be made, you won't get those Pros and extra careful managing into this niche.

Actually, be careful what you wish for in the first place, because if we get professional business into this genre comparable to Call of Duty and the likes, expect to pay 20 bucks each time a new map is released, another 10 bucks for an aircraft DLC. Brave new world.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Spot on. And now go the extra step and think this through a bit further. As the Sim business is such a niche genre without huge amounts of money to be made, you won't get those Pros and extra careful managing into this niche.

Actually, be careful what you wish for in the first place, because if we get professional business into this genre comparable to Call of Duty and the likes, expect to pay 20 bucks each time a new map is released, another 10 bucks for an aircraft DLC. Brave new world.

Trust me, you will always find pros ready for a challenge. Again, you might have to outsource outside of Russia, but it's worth the investment. As much as you have cloud programming you can have cloud managing, and believe me, it works.

As for sims being a niche market: if you observed carefully the evolution of IL-2, you might have noticed that there was an (unnecessary?) development towards jets. Il-2 1946 became actually a huge testing bed for the flight model envelope and limitations (The Lerche was a bed for the helicopters potential), to see whether the behaviour of jets would work. As you know, modders made a fantastic F-86 Sabre and now even introduced Sidewinders.

There has been a time, in the development of CoD, when Oleg thought that if having the right investors, his new flight model could have been used for a successor to the Microsoft Flight Simulator series.

Something didn't happen, and the thing deflated back to its original project, but it's obvious that the potential is still there. Hitting the Flight Simulator core would surely be no niche product..

[dali]

this one is more suitable for what you've created....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzae_SqbmDE

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Trust me, you will always find pros ready for a challenge. Again, you might have to outsource outside of Russia, but it's worth the investment. As much as you have cloud programming you can have cloud managing, and believe me, it works.

As for sims being a niche market: if you observed carefully the evolution of IL-2, you might have noticed that there was an (unnecessary?) development towards jets. Il-2 1946 became actually a huge testing bed for the flight model envelope and limitations (The Lerche was a bed for the helicopters potential), to see whether the behaviour of jets would work. As you know, modders made a fantastic F-86 Sabre and now even introduced Sidewinders.

There has been a time, in the development of CoD, when Oleg thought that if having the right investors, his new flight model could have been used for a successor to the Microsoft Flight Simulator series.

Something didn't happen, and the thing deflated back to its original project, but it's obvious that the potential is still there. Hitting the Flight Simulator core would surely be no niche product..

Maybe, but wishful thinking never solved any present problems.
Evidently, If pros would go into niche markets to look for a challenge, then they'd already be there.

The rest it half true, but hardly relevant for the debate at hand.

[Sternjaeger II]

Bewolf, check your PM.