British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.

[Untamo]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Very good post mate, ATAG is a good example as there is lots of good pilots on both sides. If you don't mind me asking, which types exactly did you try and did you fly in current 1.08 beta?

Yes in the latest beta last week. If I recall correctly, I tried Spit MKII and its 100 octane version, Rotol Hurri and 100 octane version. Didn't see huge difference between the "normal" and 100 octane versions.

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Robo.

I agree the 109 wings are too fragile when being hit by another 109 cannon and Spitfire wing is made too strong on the other hand.

Escaping red on your six? Easy. Keep flying straight and / or start shallow climb. Depending on how fast he is in the first place, obviously.. Or just neg-G and dive, then climb. He won't follow you if he's good and he will get you eventually but that's the way it is in combat when you have good pilot on your six. Spiral climb works prety well, too. It is possible to get out of very disadvantageous situations just by using the 109 abilities (and yours of course) simply due to the performance gap between 109 and RAF fighters. This is historicaly based, so fair enough, except for the gap not being that big. I hope you see what I am trying to say here.

You can do this in game - at certain speeds, or if the Spitfire pilot is not so good and you are. You can outturn a Hurrican no matter how good he is.

well, that's exactly the problem: the wings are the biggest target when deflection shooting, which is almost 100% the case in dogfighting against decent pilots. make one plane's wings pop-off even when only lightly touched, and make the other plane's wings resits to a meteorite fall.. and there you go.. a balanced fight

as for the rest.. may I laugh a little?
- flying straight/shallow climb -> the spits will get closer to you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G and dive -> the spits will outdive you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G, dive and roll -> guess what? read above..
- spiral climb -> need I quote again from the first point above? guess not..

and remember, everything of the above with planes having approximately same energy. if the spit has more, then you'd better say your prayer..

and these were supposed to be 109's "hardware" strongest points.. if you'll go into a turn fight with a spit, then you deserve your funerary stele.

yet, I'm not the best blue pilot around, and my viewpoint might be slightly biased.

that's why I would only support historical data FM changes backed up by pilots constantly flying on both sides, or by the pilots from the other side (reds supporting blue FM changes, and viceversa).

and in the end, it is not about the machines, as it is about the people who flew them. the better pilot would win more often, no matter how crappy is the machine he's flying on

[Zoom2136]

Originally Posted by addman

Are you saying 490 km/h indicated or true airspeed? Because if you can get up to 490 km/h @ 4000m indicated then the FM is almost on the mark.

Yeah not a lot of folks here know the difference....

[Talisman]

Originally Posted by adonys

well, that's exactly the problem: the wings are the biggest target when deflection shooting, which is almost 100% the case in dogfighting against decent pilots. make one plane's wings pop-off even when only lightly touched, and make the other plane's wings resits to a meteorite fall.. and there you go.. a balanced fight

as for the rest.. may I laugh a little?
- flying straight/shallow climb -> the spits will get closer to you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G and dive -> the spits will outdive you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G, dive and roll -> guess what? read above..
- spiral climb -> need I quote again from the first point above? guess not..

and remember, everything of the above with planes having approximately same energy. if the spit has more, then you'd better say your prayer..

and these were supposed to be 109's "hardware" strongest points.. if you'll go into a turn fight with a spit, then you deserve your funerary stele.

yet, I'm not the best blue pilot around, and my viewpoint might be slightly biased.

that's why I would only support historical data FM changes backed up by pilots constantly flying on both sides, or by the pilots from the other side (reds supporting blue FM changes, and viceversa).

and in the end, it is not about the machines, as it is about the people who flew them. the better pilot would win more often, no matter how crappy is the machine he's flying on

About the fragile 109 wing comment (at risk of being off topic). The 109 is a small plane (difficult to hit in the first place as a small target) with a small wing, so perhaps it is logical that ammunition hits on the Me 109 wing are more likely to cause serious damage than hits on a larger aircraft wing, such as the Spitfire. Just a thought.

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Yeah I agree with this point. All the FMs need work.

I dunno. To me, it is cheating. There's no way in real life you would hear an aircraft behind you with a 1000+ horsepower V-12 roaring away in front of you.

I think the 109 guys who jettison their canopies are cheating too.

I guess it's a leftover attitude from IL2FB. Guys used to tweak their config files so they could hear aircraft behind them. It was BS.

Yeah, the ability to hear the engines with the canopy open is there. Guaranteed. It's not right and should be adjusted. Maybe if the enemy plane is 20ft off your six you'll hear something, but not much. Funny thing was, I thought they made this better in 1.07 but it seems to be back with 1.08?

One other thing I'd add to the list of unintentional cheats is the kill and damage info. That stuff should really be a server setting. When you've got a game that involves pilot kills and a detailed and sophisticated damage model, it's not right to give pilots ESP to know that their radiator has been perforated or that the level flying aircraft in front of them has a dead pilot in it after two bullets. Server side setting for this type of info would greatly enhance the full real servers, I think.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by adonys

as for the rest.. may I laugh a little?
- flying straight/shallow climb -> the spits will get closer to you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G and dive -> the spits will outdive you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G, dive and roll -> guess what? read above..
- spiral climb -> need I quote again from the first point above? guess not..

and remember, everything of the above with planes having approximately same energy. if the spit has more, then you'd better say your prayer..

I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that the Spitfire can actually do these things? I would like to congratulate you for teaching all the red pilots how to handle the Spitfire within a few goes at it because for the past year clearly everybody else has been doing it wrong. I'm mightily relieved that it's been my inadequacies all along and nothing to do with the FM itself. Thank you so much for teaching us all a lesson!!!

1C, please take note and scrap any idea of making edits in the Bugtracker, we don't need a new patch after all because adonys has shown us that we're just rubbish pilots.

[macro]

Regarding wing damage for any plane;

Would have thought hitting the ammo belt/drums would have had seruous damage? Can imagin a 20mm goin off inside a wing would have blown it right off.

Agree on spit also, sometimes looks like there is no surface of the wing left but still flies otherr times it gets cut off in 1 hit. Something deffo not right there

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I dunno. To me, it is cheating. There's no way in real life you would hear an aircraft behind you with a 1000+ horsepower V-12 roaring away in front of you.

I think the 109 guys who jettison their canopies are cheating too.

I guess it's a leftover attitude from IL2FB. Guys used to tweak their config files so they could hear aircraft behind them. It was BS.

I agree with the engine sound, it should be addressed asap. All I was saying that not every RAF pilot flying with canopy open is enjoying the advantage of the 'ClOD sonar'. I suppose it has something to do with the sound settings and / or the soundcard...

What you describe from Il-2 era is pathetic, but still no cheating per se. Cheating in flight sims is more like having different (better) FM than everybody else or having your guns 'tweaked', more or less based on altering game files. We had that before, I-16 climbing like MiG-15 - that is cheating.

People are people and some guys will always try to use every advantage possible in order to be succesful - do you remember the good old prop pitch macro exploit on the Bf 109. It was a nasty exploit but didn't involve anything that the game wouldn't offer anyway. Same with everything else - flying with canopy open, overusing the Erhoehte Notleistung, using Spitfire flaps to turn better or using 100% M-geschoss loadout. That is the same thing for me. Game should resctrict that because people will exploit it if they get the chance.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by adonys

well, that's exactly the problem: the wings are the biggest target when deflection shooting, which is almost 100% the case in dogfighting against decent pilots. make one plane's wings pop-off even when only lightly touched, and make the other plane's wings resits to a meteorite fall.. and there you go.. a balanced fight

That is the case on non-historical 109 vs 109 fights. You are not very likely to saw the wing off with .303 (it is possible of course). Actually the 109 seems to be quite a tough bird from behind the Mk.I gunsight. I know you get all sorts of damage on your end but it seems it is not bothering you at all because you just keep climbing or running away like nothing happened. That's pretty OK with me actually. With the Spitfire wings it's the same - you think wow that was a good hit and the Spit just keeps flying and turning. Believe me or not, in fact he's struggling. Sometimes even small caliber fire makes huge damage regarding handling. The thing is that you just attack him again and finish him of, the Spit is not going anywhere unless you let him

Originally Posted by adonys

as for the rest.. may I laugh a little?
- flying straight/shallow climb -> the spits will get closer to you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"

No it will not - if it does, you are doing something seriously wrong. You will be able to extend horizontally from any Spitfire at any altitude.

Originally Posted by adonys

- neg-G and dive -> the spits will outdive you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G, dive and roll -> guess what? read above..

Nope. Especially the neg-G maneuveur is extremely effective. Of course, if the Spitfire pilot is any good he will not follow you into the steep dive, that would be very bad move. He will probably stay above you and attack you if you decide to climb again. If you play it smart though you can escape easily and surviving an enemy attack from your 6 is still win in my eyes.

Originally Posted by adonys

- spiral climb -> need I quote again from the first point above? guess not..

This works superb, he will just stall below you. Immelman / hammerhead just before he does and he's done. That also requires a Spitfire pilot falling for that, obviously. There are suprisingly many...

Originally Posted by adonys

yet, I'm not the best blue pilot around, and my viewpoint might be slightly biased.

This, I am afraid

Originally Posted by adonys

and in the end, it is not about the machines, as it is about the people who flew them. the better pilot would win more often, no matter how crappy is the machine he's flying on

I agree, every fighter aircraft is just as good as it's pilot.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine

One other thing I'd add to the list of unintentional cheats is the kill and damage info. That stuff should really be a server setting. When you've got a game that involves pilot kills and a detailed and sophisticated damage model, it's not right to give pilots ESP to know that their radiator has been perforated or that the level flying aircraft in front of them has a dead pilot in it after two bullets. Server side setting for this type of info would greatly enhance the full real servers, I think.

Yeah, very well. I was asking about this very thing at SEOW forums, but apparently it is not possible to switch these off on server side.