British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

Anyone who looks at the historical tests of the Spitfire and Hurricane can see the current game FM's are completely out of whack. The fact you can't run the aircraft at 2700 rpm and +6 boost for ANY length of time without destroying your engine is clearly wrong. The fact none of the British aircraft can reach their historical max. climb or speed is another clue.

And perhaps the 109's have some small details, but when compared to the British aircraft, they are far better off, in fact their ability to zoom climb with ZERO energy is highly suspect.

Currently even those with a mediocre level of skill can fly the 109's successfully, those who have 10+ years in gaming will find the British aircraft not much good for anything but shooting down bombers, any attempt to engage an aware 109, even with energy and speed advantages, will result almost immediate reversal of the attacker/defender positions and a desperate fight to survive on the part of the British aircraft.

This situation is far from being a realistic portrayal of the situation in the air in the Summer of 1940. If British aircraft performed this poorly, the RAF would have lost the BoB instead of shooting down far more German aircraft despite being completely outnumbered.

[trademe900]

The raf planes are good for nothing but shooting bombers at low altitude, and even then are pretty poor. The 109 climbing is just ridiculous and I think everyone agrees on the overheating merlin issue.

I would rather take a Blenheim into a dogfight than a hurricane in the game's current state.

[adonys]

it's funny how you reds are continuously whining about red FMs..

should we start to cry about how we are outclimbed, no matter our energy state, by the red aircrafts? that we can also be outdived, outrolled and outspeeded? that negative Gs are not affecting you as much as it should? that our aircraft seem to be made from paper? that every historical way to escape red on your six is not working?

not to mention the controversial ones.. like many 109 pilots saying that they could actually outturn spits in turning fights.. you are aware that those slats are not in there for nothing, right?!!

[JG3_Hartmann]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

If British aircraft performed this poorly, the RAF would have lost the BoB instead of shooting down far more German aircraft despite being completely outnumbered.

Well, but you forget, that the main reason for the higher losses of the Luftwaffe are, that they had to fly over enemy territory, so no bailed out pilot would come home to fly again.
The 109 had a short range, and they used the wrong tactics (staying near the bombers and so on).
When the RAF began to use the Big Wing tactic, the fate changed even more for the RAF.
And because of their Radar, they knew where the enemie bombers would come from, and could guess where they would go to.

They didn´t win because their planes were highly superior, but because of better tactics, and more luck.

The Hurricane was, except for turning, outclassed by the 109 in everything, expect maybe for handling, and the Spitfire could turn better and was a bit faster below 4000m. But if they flew higher than 4000m the 109 was as fast as the Spit, even a bit faster.

But I have to say, even if I mostly fly the German planes (and just to make the list complete, the 110 is nearly 50km/h to slow too), that it´s not much fun to fight with a Hurricane or Spitfire against a well flown 109.
Not enough that I could bang my head against the canopy everytime I have to start the engine, which is every time a fight if it will keep running or not , but also during the normal flight and during a fight. I may have some problems with the red engines, but without doubt I can say, there´s something rotten in the case of red fighters.

But!, like others said before, the blue planes don´t meet their real performance too.

What I personally find very funny is, that over more than 10 years, it were mostly the blue planes who were undermodelled compared to the red (mostly Russian) planes (or maybe they were made better than they were), and now, we have a similar situation, although I think, it´s not so extreme like it was some years ago with old Il2.

[Stirwenn]

nothing to do with whiners or compare Blue vs Red planes. Original post is about historical accuracy. I think that we're all going to be winners if we could stay away from usuals rants and judgements.

[csThor]

First: There is no such thing as "red FM" or "blue FM". There is "the FM" and it needs to be as accurate as possible.

BUT ...

People here, on both sides, should take a step back and look at what they're expecting. I get the distinctive impression that some RAF fans want to see the historical outcome reflected in the FMs, at least subconsciously. [Sarcasm] Hey, we won! So our aircraft must be faster, more maneuverable and better climbing![/Sarcasm]
And I see Luftwaffe fans who want to emulate the deeds of the classic LW aces. [Sarcasm]They shot down XYZ aircraft! The 109 must be faster/more maneuverable/better climbing/whatever![/Sarcasm]

Well, to both sides, you can't! Best you can hope for is a field as accurate as possible, everything else depends on the mission builder and the players. But, unfortunately, the overwhelming majority likes its mindless clusterf*ck.

[CaptainDoggles]

Oh good, Buzzsaw is here, which means it's bias time!

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Anyone who looks at the historical tests of the Spitfire and Hurricane can see the current game FM's are completely out of whack. The fact you can't run the aircraft at 2700 rpm and +6 boost for ANY length of time without destroying your engine is clearly wrong. The fact none of the British aircraft can reach their historical max. climb or speed is another clue.

I'm pretty sure everyone that matters acknowledges that all the FMs on both sides are wrong.

And perhaps the 109's have some small details, but when compared to the British aircraft, they are far better off,

Yes, we all know that they should ignore the flaws in the 109 because the RAF has it worse. They definitely shouldn't fix ALL the errors on BOTH sides. Let's minimize/ignore the 109's problems like being way too easy to get into a spit/accelerated stall and being 50 km/h too slow at altitude. Because those Blue guys are just Nazis. I won't even get into how bad the G-50 is.

in fact their ability to zoom climb with ZERO energy is highly suspect.

What a joke. Please post a video of a 109 zoom climbing with zero energy. I dare you. Until you do so, you are nothing but a biased troll. Something tells me we won't see a video of a zoom climb from "ZERO energy" though. I won't hold my breath.

This situation is far from being a realistic portrayal of the situation in the air in the Summer of 1940. If British aircraft performed this poorly, the RAF would have lost the BoB instead of shooting down far more German aircraft despite being completely outnumbered.

The Soviets repelled the Luftwaffe. Were they also flying superior aircraft in 1941? The RAF didn't win because of overwhelmingly superior aircraft. Correlation does not imply causation.

[JG53Frankyboy]

well, the 1C team has still a not short way to go, the FMs, Planesystems/-controls, AI, GUI, to name some things............

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by adonys

it's funny how you reds are continuously whining about red FMs..

should we start to cry about how we are outclimbed, no matter our energy state, by the red aircrafts? that we can also be outdived, outrolled and outspeeded? that negative Gs are not affecting you as much as it should? that our aircraft seem to be made from paper? that every historical way to escape red on your six is not working?

Hi Adonys, just as you say, you can make complaints about the Bf 109 flight models, there is lots of things that are wrong. But the ones you mention are clearly not among them I am afraid:

- outclimbed, outspeeded and outrolled by the RAF? Probably not Unless you are doing something seriously wrong.

- neg G has been fixed and reading the reports it seems that they're finally based on RL values. It was way too harsh in the previous patches. It is stil affecting the red fighters.

- Bf 109 made of paper - depends, sometimes you can get lucky and make him B/O with short burst, sometimes you hit him with loooong one and he keeps going and outruns /outclimbs you with no problem. I've been shot at by 109s I shot down in flames, but that goes for both sides I guess. I agree the 109 wings are too fragile when being hit by another 109 cannon and Spitfire wing is made too strong on the other hand.

Escaping red on your six? Easy. Keep flying straight and / or start shallow climb. Depending on how fast he is in the first place, obviously.. Or just neg-G and dive, then climb. He won't follow you if he's good and he will get you eventually but that's the way it is in combat when you have good pilot on your six. Spiral climb works prety well, too. It is possible to get out of very disadvantageous situations just by using the 109 abilities (and yours of course) simply due to the performance gap between 109 and RAF fighters. This is historicaly based, so fair enough, except for the gap not being that big. I hope you see what I am trying to say here.

Originally Posted by adonys

not to mention the controversial ones.. like many 109 pilots saying that they could actually outturn spits in turning fights.. you are aware that those slats are not in there for nothing, right?!!

You can do this in game - at certain speeds, or if the Spitfire pilot is not so good and you are. You can outturn a Hurrican no matter how good he is.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Robo.

This is historicaly based, so fair enough, except for the gap not being that big. I hope you see what I am trying to say here.

Quoted for emphasis. Historical imbalances should be modeled.

Originally Posted by adonys

should we start to cry about how we are outclimbed, no matter our energy state, by the red aircrafts? that we can also be outdived, outrolled and outspeeded? that negative Gs are not affecting you as much as it should? that our aircraft seem to be made from paper? that every historical way to escape red on your six is not working?

Spitfire 2a was heavily nerfed in recent patches. It's not an I-Win button any more, like it used to be a few patches ago.