109 advice needed (climb)

[jg27_mc]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

...and then we get into the highly-polarized territory so familiar to 1946 pilots where stark lines are drawn between Red and Blue pilots. People get emotionally attached to their favourite rides and spew vitriol at any potential gainsayers.

It's not a question of favorite ride/emotial thing IMHO, most of us remember the days Red's had Spits, in 1946 , that had those UFO/washing machine FM's and Klingon cloaking devices, in the other had Blue had flying coffins with concrete elevators (specially the late 109 models). That's why 80 to 90% of pilots (if choice was given) were flying FW's. the discussion/debate had to do with the approach MG made in both fighters. Hell the Spity could out maneuver/out climb/almost never overheat/ etc. heavily damaged. In the other hand, the 109 had paper fuselage/suffered from an abnormal rate of PK's and damaged sights/overheated (has it should)/ridiculous ugly big LOD at certain distance(vs the Spit cloaking device)/big basketball balls in the wings that created tremendous drag and therefore loss of speed. If you ask me 109's weren't porked, the problem had to to with the arcade Spifire (FM/CEM/DM) invented by Oleg and Co.

Regards.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

It's not a question of favorite ride/emotial thing IMHO, most of us remember the days Red's had Spits, in 1946 , that had those UFO/washing machine FM's and Klingon cloaking devices, in the other had Blue had flying coffins with concrete elevators (specially the late 109 models). That's why 80 to 90% of pilots (if choice was given) were flying FW's. the discussion/debate had to do with the approach MG made in both fighters. Hell the Spity could out maneuver/out climb/almost never overheat/ etc. heavily damaged. In the other hand, the 109 had paper fuselage/suffered from an abnormal rate of PK's and damaged sights/overheated (has it should)/ridiculous ugly big LOD at certain distance(vs the Spit cloaking device)/big basketball balls in the wings that created tremendous drag and therefore loss of speed. If you ask me 109's weren't porked, the problem had to to with the arcade Spifire (FM/CEM/DM) invented by Oleg and Co.

Regards.

What has this 1946 whining got to do with CoD? I flew late war 109s A LOT and sometimes Spitfires, too - they both had flaws and problems, but I never felt the Spitfire were favoured in any way as you describe. You say this, a pure Spit pilot will be telling me about the 109 rocket climb, Spit one granade no wing etc etc. No point discussing any of that here.... Cpt. Doggles said it all.

Insuber's observations are spot on and I am really curious what the new patch brings us regarding the FM adjustments.

[Cap'n Crunch]

IMO the biggest single change in the way we fly and fight will occur when superior VR goggle are marketed at a reasonable price. Air combat is above all a visual game, as it stands now you really have no choice but fight mono on mono most of the time.

Having real scale visuals and better peripherals will throw the battle in favor of those who bring a team over those who bring a few 'Aces'. Performance will drop a few notches to the new found team tactics.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by Robo.

What has this 1946 whining got to do with CoD? I flew late war 109s A LOT and sometimes Spitfires, too - they both had flaws and problems, but I never felt the Spitfire were favoured in any way as you describe. You say this, a pure Spit pilot will be telling me about the 109 rocket climb, Spit one granade no wing etc etc. No point discussing any of that here.... Cpt. Doggles said it all.

Insuber's observations are spot on and I am really curious what the new patch brings us regarding the FM adjustments.

jg27_mc is totally right.

The thing is related to CloD because the FMs seems to be a copy'n'paste of the 1946's one, at least looking at the ingame FM data.

DM and CEM are totally another matter.

As Insuber writes, there is still nothing about G-forces, structure damage and mostly the nonexistent torque... and this time I think they should also do something about the pilot's condition during combat.
I'll always remember that the Tempest pilots were prohibited to stall/spin at less than 3km because that machine was a unforgiving flying brick. In 1946 I witnessed many times (both as tempest's pilot or his enemy) those planes going into high speed spins and autorecover without any conseguences for the pilot inside, of course at very low altitude. Look... this expedient has been used by many pilots (blue and red) to escape bounces and searching overshoots.

This does have to change is you want to call this a "combat flight simulator".

Are there few to none real tests? Use that little data for those related planes and translate it for the other models in a honest way. If you need ask for opinions from engineers... there are many of them here.
Open a ****ing blog to get informations and start open discussion about that. There are so many experts here to help you! If they would release a FM SDK I'm sure that many here would lose their time to test and tweak the planes.

More time helping the development = less time of whining on this board.

Then as I said before, there should be also a simulated pilot's condition inside: fatigue, nausea and G force related waggles above all. But this is another step.

[jg27_mc]

Originally Posted by Robo.

What has this 1946 whining got to do with CoD? I flew late war 109s A LOT and sometimes Spitfires, too - they both had flaws and problems, but I never felt the Spitfire were favoured in any way as you describe. You say this, a pure Spit pilot will be telling me about the 109 rocket climb, Spit one granade no wing etc etc. No point discussing any of that here.... Cpt. Doggles said it all.

Insuber's observations are spot on and I am really curious what the new patch brings us regarding the FM adjustments.

Whatever... I am ok with your opinions, although I don't agree with them. Every single AC has it's strong and weak aspects, being that said, it was not the issue in my previous post. I am talking of a completely different perspective (more profound if you wish) you either have the ability to understand it or not.

If you like to have a combat simulation with airplanes modeled like an xbox/PS game, please be my guest. If you were unable to understand the importance of my post regarding CloD and the comparative between the Spit and 109. look at the following quotes:

Originally Posted by luthier

...the guys are poring over Spitfire performance data...

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

...The thing is related to CloD because the FMs seems to be a copy'n'paste of the 1946's one, at least looking at the ingame FM data.

DM and CEM are totally another matter...

I get chills just thinking how the approaches are going to be made, considering the early past... Of course if you think Spitfires were well done in 1946 comparing the complexity present in both fighters (Spit and 109). I completely rest my case.

Regards.

PS: AFAIK most of 109's if not all (regarding the same period) should be able to out climb Spitfires like in RL. In a late war scenario, as modeled in 1946, only the K4 was able to out climb (in certain conditions) the Spitfire... I guess I didn't quite understood that particular point of view, unless you were thinking biased...

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

Whatever... I am ok with your opinions, although I don't agree with them. Every single AC has it's strong and weak aspects, being that said, it was not the issue in my previous post. I am talking of a completely different perspective (more profound if you wish) you either have the ability to understand it or not.

What I was asking was: what has 1946 to do with CoD? Why are you even bringing anything that you think was wrong with Spitfires and 109s in Il-2 1946 into this thread I don't care what you think about my opinion, my opinion does not matter at all. Every Il-2 player flying both (blue and red) sides equally will see how biased and ridiculous these kinds of comments are anyway.

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

If you like to have a combat simulation with airplanes modeled like an xbox/PS game, please be my guest. If you were unable to understand the importance of my post regarding CloD and the comparative between the Spit and 109.

No, I very much enjoy that CoD is more game and less arcade (compared to 1946). I actually wish they would make it as hardcore as possible. Your opinion of 109 vs Spitfires in 1946 is irrelevant and unimportant. It's just your frustration fighting them on the blue side. Fair enough

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

I get chills just thinking how the approaches are going to be made, considering the early past... Of course if you think Spitfires were well done in 1946 comparing the complexity present in both fighters (Spit and 109). I completely rest my case.

I still fly 1946 a lot and since 4.09m, the Spitfires Mk.V and Mk.IX (e.g. the ones in the stock game) were overhauled by Team Daidalos and they did a very good job imho - just FYI

I do remember though how they used to perform in 4.08 and never had any problem with them flying Blue (which was 60+ percent of the time). Very capable plane as it should be.

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

PS: AFAIK most of 109's if not all (regarding the same period) should be able to out climb Spitfires like in RL. In a late war scenario, as modeled in 1946, only the K4 was able to out climb (in certain conditions) the Spitfire... I guess I didn't quite understood that particular point of view, unless you were thinking biased...

Last note on 1946 - you're wrong as every single late war Bf 109 is able to outclimb Spitfire and excell on the vertical if used right. (except that 25lbs. beast obviously)

----------------------------

As for the actual topic - as it is, Bf 109 is certainly able to outclimb any Mk.I RAF fighter as it should. FM need some fine tuning, there is a patch coming out soon so why don't we simply wait, try it and THEN comment.

You're coming here with your opinions from an different sim (which you don't fly anymore) and comment on stuff that has not even happened yet. Why? (that was my question)

My recommendation to any orthodox blue or red pilots - try flying the other side for a month or two

My fear with the new patch is that luthier said they are looking into the fm of the spit but made no mention of the other planes. So probably we will get a spit 1 faster than the hurricane to make this right but the rest will stay where it is ...

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

My fear with the new patch is that luthier said they are looking into the fm of the spit but made no mention of the other planes. So probably we will get a spit 1 faster than the hurricane to make this right but the rest will stay where it is ...

I'm not bothered since to me this game is still incomplete: but having a well modelled Spit is a great thing... one of the many steps they have to take.

[jg27_mc]

Originally Posted by Robo.

What I was asking was: what has 1946 to do with CoD? Why are you even bringing anything that you think was wrong with Spitfires and 109s in Il-2 1946 into this thread I don't care what you think about my opinion, my opinion does not matter at all. Every Il-2 player flying both (blue and red) sides equally will see how biased and ridiculous these kinds of comments are anyway.



No, I very much enjoy that CoD is more game and less arcade (compared to 1946). I actually wish they would make it as hardcore as possible. Your opinion of 109 vs Spitfires in 1946 is irrelevant and unimportant. It's just your frustration fighting them on the blue side. Fair enough



I still fly 1946 a lot and since 4.09m, the Spitfires Mk.V and Mk.IX (e.g. the ones in the stock game) were overhauled by Team Daidalos and they did a very good job imho - just FYI

I do remember though how they used to perform in 4.08 and never had any problem with them flying Blue (which was 60+ percent of the time). Very capable plane as it should be.



Last note on 1946 - you're wrong as every single late war Bf 109 is able to outclimb Spitfire and excell on the vertical if used right. (except that 25lbs. beast obviously)

----------------------------

As for the actual topic - as it is, Bf 109 is certainly able to outclimb any Mk.I RAF fighter as it should. FM need some fine tuning, there is a patch coming out soon so why don't we simply wait, try it and THEN comment.

You're coming here with your opinions from an different sim (which you don't fly anymore) and comment on stuff that has not even happened yet. Why? (that was my question)

My recommendation to any orthodox blue or red pilots - try flying the other side for a month or two

Your one of those guys that... Well I am done with you. Take the bicycle home.

PS: (I should really be killing you instead of wasting my time here)

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

Your one of those guys that... Well I am done with you. Take the bicycle home.

PS: (I should really be killing you instead of wasting my time here)

Not sure what you're on about here with the bicycle and stuff, but that little 'fight' of ours on ATAG was rather interesting, wasn't it?

Honestly, I hope the devs will keep improving the sim FM-wise - I believe the main FM problems are well known and documented and I am looking forward for the upcoming patches.