109 advice needed (climb)

[jg27_mc]

Originally Posted by Robo.

What has this 1946 whining got to do with CoD? I flew late war 109s A LOT and sometimes Spitfires, too - they both had flaws and problems, but I never felt the Spitfire were favoured in any way as you describe. You say this, a pure Spit pilot will be telling me about the 109 rocket climb, Spit one granade no wing etc etc. No point discussing any of that here.... Cpt. Doggles said it all.

Insuber's observations are spot on and I am really curious what the new patch brings us regarding the FM adjustments.

Whatever... I am ok with your opinions, although I don't agree with them. Every single AC has it's strong and weak aspects, being that said, it was not the issue in my previous post. I am talking of a completely different perspective (more profound if you wish) you either have the ability to understand it or not.

If you like to have a combat simulation with airplanes modeled like an xbox/PS game, please be my guest. If you were unable to understand the importance of my post regarding CloD and the comparative between the Spit and 109. look at the following quotes:

Originally Posted by luthier

...the guys are poring over Spitfire performance data...

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

...The thing is related to CloD because the FMs seems to be a copy'n'paste of the 1946's one, at least looking at the ingame FM data.

DM and CEM are totally another matter...

I get chills just thinking how the approaches are going to be made, considering the early past... Of course if you think Spitfires were well done in 1946 comparing the complexity present in both fighters (Spit and 109). I completely rest my case.

Regards.

PS: AFAIK most of 109's if not all (regarding the same period) should be able to out climb Spitfires like in RL. In a late war scenario, as modeled in 1946, only the K4 was able to out climb (in certain conditions) the Spitfire... I guess I didn't quite understood that particular point of view, unless you were thinking biased...

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

Whatever... I am ok with your opinions, although I don't agree with them. Every single AC has it's strong and weak aspects, being that said, it was not the issue in my previous post. I am talking of a completely different perspective (more profound if you wish) you either have the ability to understand it or not.

What I was asking was: what has 1946 to do with CoD? Why are you even bringing anything that you think was wrong with Spitfires and 109s in Il-2 1946 into this thread I don't care what you think about my opinion, my opinion does not matter at all. Every Il-2 player flying both (blue and red) sides equally will see how biased and ridiculous these kinds of comments are anyway.

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

If you like to have a combat simulation with airplanes modeled like an xbox/PS game, please be my guest. If you were unable to understand the importance of my post regarding CloD and the comparative between the Spit and 109.

No, I very much enjoy that CoD is more game and less arcade (compared to 1946). I actually wish they would make it as hardcore as possible. Your opinion of 109 vs Spitfires in 1946 is irrelevant and unimportant. It's just your frustration fighting them on the blue side. Fair enough

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

I get chills just thinking how the approaches are going to be made, considering the early past... Of course if you think Spitfires were well done in 1946 comparing the complexity present in both fighters (Spit and 109). I completely rest my case.

I still fly 1946 a lot and since 4.09m, the Spitfires Mk.V and Mk.IX (e.g. the ones in the stock game) were overhauled by Team Daidalos and they did a very good job imho - just FYI

I do remember though how they used to perform in 4.08 and never had any problem with them flying Blue (which was 60+ percent of the time). Very capable plane as it should be.

Originally Posted by jg27_mc

PS: AFAIK most of 109's if not all (regarding the same period) should be able to out climb Spitfires like in RL. In a late war scenario, as modeled in 1946, only the K4 was able to out climb (in certain conditions) the Spitfire... I guess I didn't quite understood that particular point of view, unless you were thinking biased...

Last note on 1946 - you're wrong as every single late war Bf 109 is able to outclimb Spitfire and excell on the vertical if used right. (except that 25lbs. beast obviously)

----------------------------

As for the actual topic - as it is, Bf 109 is certainly able to outclimb any Mk.I RAF fighter as it should. FM need some fine tuning, there is a patch coming out soon so why don't we simply wait, try it and THEN comment.

You're coming here with your opinions from an different sim (which you don't fly anymore) and comment on stuff that has not even happened yet. Why? (that was my question)

My recommendation to any orthodox blue or red pilots - try flying the other side for a month or two

My fear with the new patch is that luthier said they are looking into the fm of the spit but made no mention of the other planes. So probably we will get a spit 1 faster than the hurricane to make this right but the rest will stay where it is ...

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

My fear with the new patch is that luthier said they are looking into the fm of the spit but made no mention of the other planes. So probably we will get a spit 1 faster than the hurricane to make this right but the rest will stay where it is ...

I'm not bothered since to me this game is still incomplete: but having a well modelled Spit is a great thing... one of the many steps they have to take.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by IvanK

The fan plots that I have collected over the years though few in number are:

Spitfire1A
BF109E3
Spitfire MKIII Clean (Merlin XX)
Spitfire MKIII with Full Flap (RAE study on Flap and its effects on turn performance)
Blenheim MKIV (RAE report "Notes on the dogfight)
Brewster Buffalo (F2A) with Flap and Clean (Exhaustive USN/NACA study on Flap effects on turn performance)

So six or so.. Out of how many planes in WWII?

Originally Posted by IvanK

I am sure there are more out there but its just finding them.

Maybe.. but like you I have only found about six or seven over the past 20 years of flight simming.. But even if you could find ONE for each plane, remember, the fan plot shows the results at ONLY ONE ALTITUDE! Typically somewhere between 10 to 15kft

Thus it is safe to say that at some point 'we' will have to trust the math (FM) of it all.. As in a calculated value. Once that is done and agreed upon you have to find those that have what it takes to do the test! As noted, based on my experance of testing and reviewing tests done by others, sim pilots typically fall way short of that mark!

[6S.Manu]

I think we can overcome this problem with the help of our engineers.

I'm quite sure that today they are using software who can return to us many informations about those planes' attitude.

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

I'm not bothered since to me this game is still incomplete: but having a well modelled Spit is a great thing... one of the many steps they have to take.

Agreed that they should fix the Spit. My concern is that we will wait a long time or even an eternity for the other planes to be fixed.

@Ace:

I agree that to some extend we will have to rely on some hypothesises wrt plane performance. However we should use any data that we can get imho - and be it just to calibrate the calculated data.

[6S.Manu]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

Agreed that they should fix the Spit. My concern is that we will wait a long time or even an eternity for the other planes to be fixed.

Of course. That I meant is that they have to start with a plane: it's better to have one well modelled plane and 3 bad modelled ones for 6 months than 4 bad modelled planes for 6 months.

I know that the dogfights will suffer from it... but since I've not CloD on my HD for me it's ok (as for majority of the pilots in my squad).

[jg27_mc]

Originally Posted by Robo.

What I was asking was: what has 1946 to do with CoD? Why are you even bringing anything that you think was wrong with Spitfires and 109s in Il-2 1946 into this thread I don't care what you think about my opinion, my opinion does not matter at all. Every Il-2 player flying both (blue and red) sides equally will see how biased and ridiculous these kinds of comments are anyway.



No, I very much enjoy that CoD is more game and less arcade (compared to 1946). I actually wish they would make it as hardcore as possible. Your opinion of 109 vs Spitfires in 1946 is irrelevant and unimportant. It's just your frustration fighting them on the blue side. Fair enough



I still fly 1946 a lot and since 4.09m, the Spitfires Mk.V and Mk.IX (e.g. the ones in the stock game) were overhauled by Team Daidalos and they did a very good job imho - just FYI

I do remember though how they used to perform in 4.08 and never had any problem with them flying Blue (which was 60+ percent of the time). Very capable plane as it should be.



Last note on 1946 - you're wrong as every single late war Bf 109 is able to outclimb Spitfire and excell on the vertical if used right. (except that 25lbs. beast obviously)

----------------------------

As for the actual topic - as it is, Bf 109 is certainly able to outclimb any Mk.I RAF fighter as it should. FM need some fine tuning, there is a patch coming out soon so why don't we simply wait, try it and THEN comment.

You're coming here with your opinions from an different sim (which you don't fly anymore) and comment on stuff that has not even happened yet. Why? (that was my question)

My recommendation to any orthodox blue or red pilots - try flying the other side for a month or two

Your one of those guys that... Well I am done with you. Take the bicycle home.

PS: (I should really be killing you instead of wasting my time here)

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by Robo.

My recommendation to any orthodox blue or red pilots - try flying the other side for a month or two

That's a good advice, mate.