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smink1701
05-16-2012, 03:41 PM
Now that the developers seem to have a handle on making the game more playable, I sincerely hope they will get on to all the things that need attention.

Was flying a QM yesterday and gut right up on a Stuka, emptied my guns, saw everything but the kitchen sink come off the plane...and it just flew on like nothing happened. This and MANY, MANY other things are just immersion killers. AI is better but still not nearly as good as it needs to be. Not as good as IL2 1946, ROF or BOB2. I never get the sense that I am fighting with real pilots. Another immersion killer.

Please keep up the good work and hopefully this game will be worth playing one day.

CaptainDoggles
05-16-2012, 03:43 PM
I never get the sense that I am fighting with real pilots. Another immersion killer.

I'm not sure it's even possible to write an AI that will be as good or as realistic as a real pilot. It's too bad, really.

Dowly
05-16-2012, 03:44 PM
I'm not sure it's even possible to write an AI that will be as good or as realistic as a real pilot. It's too bad, really.

BoB2 in it's current state comes quite close imho. At least in that, the AI makes mistakes and
doesn't fly perfectly 100% of time. :)

Gabelschwanz Teufel
05-16-2012, 03:46 PM
BoB2 in it's current state comes quite close imho. At least in that, the AI makes mistakes and
doesn't fly perfectly 100% of time. :)

None better.

SlipBall
05-16-2012, 03:56 PM
Now that the developers seem to have a handle on making the game more playable, I sincerely hope they will get on to all the things that need attention.

Was flying a QM yesterday and gut right up on a Stuka, emptied my guns, saw everything but the kitchen sink come off the plane...and it just flew on like nothing happened. This and MANY, MANY other things are just immersion killers. AI is better but still not nearly as good as it needs to be. Not as good as IL2 1946, ROF or BOB2. I never get the sense that I am fighting with real pilots. Another immersion killer.

Please keep up the good work and hopefully this game will be worth playing one day.


Ha ha, lots of armor there, in fact well armored behind and below the rear gunner so that attacks from directly behind and below are less effective...take out controls, pilot, radiator...just wait till the il-2 shows up, flying tank for sure

GraveyardJimmy
05-16-2012, 03:59 PM
One thing I would say is that you cant expect to destroy aircraft easily. Looking at wikipedia (not the best source I realise) I saw this on "disaster" for Stukas:

28 Stukas of I./StG 77 were attacked by No. 43 and 601 Squadron sporting a force of 18 Hurricanes. The escorting Bf 109s from II./JG 27 were flying too far away and could not stop the Hurricanes making an attack before the Ju 87s made their dives. Three Ju 87s were shot down in exchange for a damaged Hurricane, hit by return fire.

So when 18 hurricanes attacked without fighter opposition, they downed 3 aircraft. One on one, especially from behind, possibly shouldn't see a destroyed aircraft, despite the hits you managed.

CWMV
05-16-2012, 04:03 PM
There is a reason the 8x.303 armament was ditched.

Ataros
05-16-2012, 04:15 PM
This is what happens when not shooting exactly at convergence range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=KkBh0dBujiM

Spit has a gunsight adjustable to target wingspan and convergence for precision shooting.

JG5_emil
05-16-2012, 04:23 PM
Look for the AI TWeak thing from Van Pilsen it will make the AI less ridiculous and quite fun to fight against.

rga
05-16-2012, 04:30 PM
In QM you cannot edit the belting. British aircrafts in QM use useless belt setting which is composed mostly of balls. And the observer rounds which do literally nothing than a puff.

FFCW_Urizen
05-16-2012, 04:38 PM
i wouldn´t call the default belting completely useless, you can and will down planes if you shoot to your convergence and if you hit vital parts of the enemy a/c (i.e. fuel tanks, engines, pilot, controls...). in my current setup i use 50%ball, 25% ap and 25% incendiary and do down aircraft, but only if i shoot to my convergence hitting vital parts!

pstyle
05-16-2012, 04:43 PM
I can knock multiple Stukas down with a single ammo load.

Set convergence to the right distance, use small variations (1 to 2 m) in guns if you need a spread.
Put tracers on your outside guns (1 and 8)
Put Armour piercing. incendiary in the middle guns. (don't forget to load De Wilde ammo!)

Get up to your convergance distance. Learn where this is, what it feels like to be there and get there every time.

let rip. ratta-tat-tat!

Boomie boom!

As soon as an AI stuka drops out of formation, they generally crash. It's different from Il2, the way the "killed" aircraft behave. You often don't even need to knock em completely out, just stop them from being able to effectively fly home.

bw_wolverine
05-16-2012, 04:48 PM
Urizen is right. The default settings for the guns (I swap out the observer rounds for more incendiary) are pretty deadly with accuracy.

I switched at one point to all AP and De Wilde and thought it was great.

Then, after a post by Robo. about historical gun loadouts for the RAF fighters I went back to a more historical mix and I've had more success than I did with 50/50 AP/De Wilde.

Your milage may vary, of course.

robtek
05-16-2012, 04:58 PM
And if you should have changed your loadout to AP and deWilde, don't forget to be really upset when a online server forces realistic(historic) loadouts. :D :D :D

Prime Time
05-16-2012, 08:13 PM
As far as I have seen, from playing flight sims 10+ years, IL2:1946 mods Dark Blue World etc have best AI at the moment.

fruitbat
05-16-2012, 08:25 PM
As far as I have seen, from playing flight sims 10+ years, IL2:1946 mods Dark Blue World etc have best AI at the moment.

4.11 AI is leaps and bounds better than that.

smink1701
05-16-2012, 08:42 PM
The AI planes in QM don't do the ridiculous rolls like they once did (I DL the AI mod and it helped) but the movement of the planes is still twitchy and robotic. In other sims including IL2 the plane's behavior is much more fluid and realistic. Anyone else seeing this?

CWMV
05-16-2012, 10:05 PM
4.11 AI is leaps and bounds better than that.

From what I've read this is true. I mean so that can't see through clouds?! Great!
But the rest is still woefully behind, and lacking in so much content.
Here's hoping for a quick incorporation of 4.11 into dbw.

SEE
05-16-2012, 10:19 PM
In QM you cannot edit the belting. British aircrafts in QM use useless belt setting which is composed mostly of balls. And the observer rounds which do literally nothing than a puff.

Agree, the default loadout is a mess and not very effective even with correct convergence. Unfortunately, the only way to change a Quick Mission loadout is to save a custom version of the mission, then copy the MIS file to the Single Missions folder, open it using FMB to drop a custom loadout into it (assuming you have created one). You may be able to change the loadouts as a 'Single mission' without using FMB following changes in one of the previous updates.

There are other ways of doing the above using 'Notepad' but I do find it odd that CloD does not allow the user to use custom loadouts in SP.

He111
05-17-2012, 01:37 AM
Ha ha, lots of armor there, in fact well armored behind and below the rear gunner so that attacks from directly behind and below are less effective...take out controls, pilot, radiator...just wait till the il-2 shows up, flying tank for sure

I never knew the Stuka was SO well armoured. So when britsih pilots talked of a "Stuka Party" they ment something else?

Yeah, i cannot wait for the sky tank either - cementer! :grin: Iwonder why the Russians didn't place fixed guns facing rearwards with a periscope aimer, just like the Arado jet bomber, would have saved weight of a rear-gunner! :confused:

.

bowlesy
05-17-2012, 02:26 AM
I have noticed in CLOD that it is very rare to see planes on fire compared to other sims. When you do it looks really nice though! I mainly fly British planes so maybe this will change in the future when the 20mm come into play?

trademe900
05-17-2012, 04:00 AM
One thing I would say is that you cant expect to destroy aircraft easily. Looking at wikipedia (not the best source I realise) I saw this on "disaster" for Stukas:



So when 18 hurricanes attacked without fighter opposition, they downed 3 aircraft. One on one, especially from behind, possibly shouldn't see a destroyed aircraft, despite the hits you managed.

I beg to differ!

Have a good read through the many, many combat reports around and you will see that the 8x .303 was ferocious at close range in real life... a incredible amount of rounds tearing through planes with authority and more often than not resulting in belching thick clouds of smoke, fires or even severing tail sections!!

Given this evidence it is quite ridiculous in the current porked state to get over 200 solid hits at deflection on a 109 only to have him glide back to base with a stuttering engine. You can even put 1000 solid hits into an he111 and have it cruise back to france with little difficulty, quite absurd seeing as the most notable record of bomber survival for this period was the Do17z that took over 200 hits. Let's

One other thing to add is that the differences in ammo loadout can yield very strange results... try loading every gun with dewilde and watch as you blow the wings off an He111 with a split second burst- everytime. Il2 1946 is still far more well rounded in the damage model as is but this has good potential should these glaring bugs be attended to.

JG52Krupi
05-17-2012, 06:45 AM
It's the same for both sides I am going back to the e-1 the cannons are pathetic atm a solid hit on a spit or hurri and the aircraft just flies on.

JG52Uther
05-17-2012, 07:40 AM
It's the same for both sides I am going back to the e-1 the cannons are pathetic atm a solid hit on a spit or hurri and the aircraft just flies on.
Good! JG52 flew E1's in the battle anyway. ;)

pstyle
05-17-2012, 08:33 AM
I have noticed in CLOD that it is very rare to see planes on fire compared to other sims. When you do it looks really nice though! I mainly fly British planes so maybe this will change in the future when the 20mm come into play?
Tried incendiary ammunition?
Tried hitting a fuel tank?

Stuff doesn't burn unless there is heat, oxygen and fuel. Some sims (older ones) aircraft "blow up" when you shoot the tail off.... the increased damage modelling should result in more "realistic" incidence of explosion.

carguy_
05-17-2012, 08:47 AM
I never knew the Stuka was SO well armoured. So when britsih pilots talked of a "Stuka Party" they ment something else?
You DO know that most of the top scorers waited for the enemy aircraft to basically fill their crosshair before firing? You can spit bullets from 200m as much as you like, not many of them will hit.




Yeah, i cannot wait for the sky tank either - cementer! :grin:

I do not know if 15mm AP ammo of the Friedrich nose gun can penetrate the cabin, but there`s always the underside radiator that can be damaged with normal MG calibre. The more complicated DM when compared to the old IL2 will also benefit the attacker here.

Anyways, virtual 109 pilots had enough time to learn to deal with them.

addman
05-17-2012, 09:08 AM
You DO know that most of the top scorers waited for the enemy aircraft to basically fill their crosshair before firing? You can spit bullets from 200m as much as you like, not many of them will hit.




I do not know if 15mm AP ammo of the Friedrich nose gun can penetrate the cabin, but there`s always the underside radiator that can be damaged with normal MG calibre. The more complicated DM when compared to the old IL2 will also benefit the attacker here.

Anyways, virtual 109 pilots had enough time to learn to deal with them.

Yeah, lol, "the tank of the sky" IL-2. One short well placed burst of MG on that oil radiator and it's history, in IL-2 1946 at least. After a little practice one could single-handedly take out a whole squadron of those things. If they have the same weakness in BoM, no need to use any precious 15mm cannon ammo.:)

furbs
05-17-2012, 09:11 AM
It would be tricky though if the pilot knew what he was doing and flew at tree top height.
Some good battles in VEF with Il2's and those pesky I16s with green lasers.

carguy_
05-17-2012, 09:36 AM
It would be tricky though if the pilot knew what he was doing and flew at tree top height.
Some good battles in VEF with Il2's and those pesky I16s with green lasers.
You have to keep an open mind in 1941. There`s hardly such a thing as bomber hunting missions in it. The 109s meet a lone group of one seater IL2s so most think it is going to be a walk in the park. They take each one of the IL2s but things change drastically when those destroyers turn on you and start to to send you some 20mm. Not pretty, saw it many times.

furbs
05-17-2012, 09:45 AM
Oh yes, parking your self low and slow behind a IL2 and peppering away while the other IL2 swings in a blows your wing off, was not a good idea.

Insuber
05-17-2012, 01:33 PM
I remember very similar debates on the UBI il2 forum, regarding namely the too low power of small caliber guns. In Il2 one could put 1000 .303 rounds on a bomber without apparent effects. Apart from the in-game damage parameters of the individual rounds (e.g. damage radius) the weapons effects are a function of a few other parameters: accuracy of the round landing spot, modeling of vital areas of the plane, modeling of the consequences of damages to those vital parts.
Oleg spoke about an increase by 10x of the damageable parts with respect to Il2. I see indeed a huge variety of damages in the chat messages. In many cases the plane behaves coherently, e.g. the hydraulic governor locks if the main hydraulic system is hit, and the control surface cables disable the corresponding ailerons etc.
However my doubt are that:

a) not all of the damages seem reflected on the actual plane behavior.
b) the damage radius/effect of the individual rounds seems a bit off, with a huge advantage for the explosive rounds.

However we lack too many information on the DM a the moment to whine too much :-)

Bye!

Sven
05-17-2012, 04:15 PM
It's not just the damage itself that brings the plane down, it's the pilot who decides to continue or not.
The AI lacks this human part, and therefore you have to hit something vital, making it way more complicated then it was in IRL.

Crumpp
05-17-2012, 04:45 PM
I just picked up a copy of Cliffs of Dover several days ago. My initial outings have been in a Spitfire, Hurricane, and Bf-109.

I have to say I like it and it has potential. The main function of that is it feels like you are operating the aircraft.

tools4fools
05-17-2012, 07:01 PM
You can even put 1000 solid hits into an he111 Dunno what you do but the absolutely ever most I needed was about 500 shots. Bad shooting on my side and overkill as well as I wanted it to go down quick - the plane was already in its slow dead turns, going slower and slower in wide circles. Pumped more into it as I wanted it to go down quick but were not needed.

Usually 150 hits per bomber is what I need, but if I get a good attack run it's less than 100:
9638

Ludwig Havenhorst describes after ground attacks damage to their He 11 in Russia:
"Our He 111 was hit a number of times. The crew chief counted 151 holes. All of the remaining aircraft had sustained similar damage.
In the following days our squadron lost six more aircraft in the same way. They were written off as a result of heavy damage or shot down."

As said about 150 do the trick usually in game, less if hit square and fair.

One thing that does not work is sitting at dead 6 however, you have to shoot from angles.

And I haven't observed any engine fire in He 111 so far, either it's a large kaboom tearing off the wing or it is thin streams of smoke (black/white) from the engine, which eventually dies down, but never a proper engine fire.

trademe900
05-17-2012, 08:43 PM
I have observed fires on a he111 but it is extremely rare, not like the ju88 or do17z which seem to be more well rounded in their damage models.

Are you saying 150 hits on a he111 in COD? In il2 yes it's possible but sorry but I don't buy it for il2, you need at least 500 solid hits at deflection bring one down, often it can go to 1000. Quite ridiculous.

Stukas are insanely tough along with the he111.

He111
05-17-2012, 10:14 PM
Yeah, lol, "the tank of the sky" IL-2. One short well placed burst of MG on that oil radiator and it's history, in IL-2 1946 at least. After a little practice one could single-handedly take out a whole squadron of those things. If they have the same weakness in BoM, no need to use any precious 15mm cannon ammo.:)

Good luck addman if you think your aim is that good! :grin: Obviously better than actual pilots ..

Don't forget a panicing IL2 pilot (Me!) will be flying all over the sky.

@Sven, yes, very true. We've all watch the heroic propaganda @ the movies but in real life things are very different.

.

tools4fools
05-18-2012, 12:54 PM
Sometimes I need 500 hits and I think that's already quite a lot - in particular as often it still just goes into the right-turn slower and slower circles but still might take 10min until it actually crashes in the water.
Like this one:
9658

Good deflection and it goes kaboom with very few hits, like this one:
9657

And yes I agree, the result of the damage might be wrong. Like in the He111 I have not have once in all this testing and engine/wing fire or thick black smoke from an engine.

Only thin white or black smoke or massive explosion.

drewpee
05-19-2012, 02:33 AM
I think it's fair enough not to expect to kill the pilot from a six o'clock attack but a prolonged burst of mg/cannon fire should rupture lines, snap cables destroy moving parts and wreck flight surfaces. In short damaged ac should be out of the fight and crew should be getting ready to bail out. At the moment such damaged ac are often capable of continued high g evasive maneuvers and some times still deadly to the attacker.

trademe900
05-19-2012, 08:20 AM
The ju87 is the real mystery though, the thing is invulnerable!

@tools4fools- yes there are 2 ways the he111 goes down- 1. wing blows off instantly hollywood style with dewilde or 2. put 1000 hits into it and it will slowly decrease in altitude. It will never belch black smoke either, only fuel and coolant vapor. The ju88 and do17z are far more interesting and believable.

tools4fools
05-19-2012, 09:04 AM
I did a few more test flights.

Actually you don't need to put 1000 hits in - usually it goes in the slow death circle at latest around 500 hits. Still, that's an awful lot.
If you pump after 500 hits more into it it often doesn't change a thing. Still stays in once piece, and slow death circle...
For the fun of it I tried it once and continued shooting:9665

Important is to shoot at convergence, if you do so even from six you can get the catastorphic explosions - if you hit the right spot:
9666

So I changed the ride, took the 12.7mm guns of the G50. Still no fires. However the nose guns allow for much more accurate hitting in one spot and if you concentrate your fire into one wing it goes down quick and easy:
9670
In the second G50 attack I needed 41hit in left wing, down she went.

Changed the ride again and took a 110. First used MG and cannon, and finally got my fire, center fuselage:
9669

So decided to use cannon only, got my fire again, outer wing this time, but needed 25 hits:
9671

Will do more 20mm tests to check how many hits needed.
Overall it seems that only 20mm can set the thing on fire and that might be the difference with the MG's.
I will test as well the G50 in more flights against the He111 as it easily sets other bombers on fire.
++++++

Kurfürst
05-19-2012, 09:19 AM
Rifle caliber hits are extremely ineffective against self sealing tanks. I have a Russian testing result against Bf 109 s-s tank, and they found that up to 20 (!!) hits were sealed when hit my RCMG fire. That's a lot, and the Heinkel fuel tanks are larger and more massive.. getting 20 hits on the same tank so that fuel would start to pour out to everywhere is also very unlikely to me.

EAF331 Starfire
05-19-2012, 11:16 AM
Tried incendiary ammunition?
Tried hitting a fuel tank?

Stuff doesn't burn unless there is heat, oxygen and fuel. Some sims (older ones) aircraft "blow up" when you shoot the tail off.... the increased damage modelling should result in more "realistic" incidence of explosion.

I think I read that the 109 had a system that filled the emty space in the fueltank with inert gas or that air was sucked out of it.
If this works, it should be prevented from catching fire on the first pass. It will take a while for fuel to run out an soak the rest of the aircraft.

Most of my kills in COD, have been pilot kills or team kills.
Convergense is the key in aircraft with wingmounted guns, especially if you only have light machine guns.

Kurfürst
05-19-2012, 11:27 AM
OT: La-5/7 had that system. IIRC they drove exhaust gases to fuel tank.

5./JG27.Farber
05-19-2012, 11:29 AM
Try adding incendiary rounds...

tools4fools
05-19-2012, 12:38 PM
Try adding incendiary rounds...

My ammo belts are 4 guns nothing but De Wilde. 4 guns AP and tracer.
Attacks from sides, above, underneath, tried even dead 6 for a change, normally not my style. I never shoot further away than about 170-180 and closing in to under 100. Convergence at 150.

As said a good precise attack needs less than 100 hits to down that He 111. Often I need 150-250, but that is due to rather less than perfect shooting and is the combined hits of 3 passes or so.
Rarely I need 400-500 hits. Rarely.


While I agree and am happy that there isn't fires all over the place it still strikes me a bit odd that in approx 40-50 test attacks on a Heinkel 111 drone I was never able to start a single little fire.
Kabooms, yes, pilot kills yes, thin white stream (coolant, fuel), think black stream (engine oil), loads of holes in the wing areas, ailerons kaputt, elevators shot away, etc, etc.
But never a single little fire.

Now if the tanks are hard to set on fire that's fine with me. But never?
Next would be the engine. Never. No engine fires either?
+++++

tools4fools
05-19-2012, 05:22 PM
OK, was able to flame quite a few Heinels and Stukas with the G50. Then used the 109 and flamed some Stuka using only the nose MG's.

Now differences with Hurricane:

If Hurricane hits the vulnerable spot (fuel tanks for example) it does not burn - it does kaboom immediately; because you hit it with 4 / 8 MG's at once (instead of two of 109 or G50).
It's more difficult to hit vulnerable spot with Hurricane; ideal distance seems 180/170m in terms of convergence, if you go any closer the guns do not converge at one single spot anymore.
However at 180m aiming and hitting vulnerable spot is difficult as you are still far away - and if you are inside 150m difficult to hit a particular spot as the guns will hit left and right of where you aim.

De Wilde and Incendary work fine, try it on a Wellington, the fabric starts to burn easily all over the plane.

Maybe another odd thing is that you can easily get thin white 'smoke' coming out of the wings - fuel leak I would say. But if you clobber than wing heavily with De Wilde and Incendary afterwards this seems not to result in fires.
Those wingtanks were not really small targets either:
http://www.germanmilitaryhistory.com/img/upload/trhrtrh564564564_1.jpg
+++++

gimpy117
05-19-2012, 07:00 PM
I've been on fire In my G.50. Just throwing it out there.

trademe900
05-20-2012, 04:19 AM
I did a few more test flights.

Actually you don't need to put 1000 hits in - usually it goes in the slow death circle at latest around 500 hits. Still, that's an awful lot.
If you pump after 500 hits more into it it often doesn't change a thing. Still stays in once piece, and slow death circle...
For the fun of it I tried it once and continued shooting:9665

Important is to shoot at convergence, if you do so even from six you can get the catastorphic explosions - if you hit the right spot:
9666

So I changed the ride, took the 12.7mm guns of the G50. Still no fires. However the nose guns allow for much more accurate hitting in one spot and if you concentrate your fire into one wing it goes down quick and easy:
9670
In the second G50 attack I needed 41hit in left wing, down she went.

Changed the ride again and took a 110. First used MG and cannon, and finally got my fire, center fuselage:
9669

So decided to use cannon only, got my fire again, outer wing this time, but needed 25 hits:
9671

Will do more 20mm tests to check how many hits needed.
Overall it seems that only 20mm can set the thing on fire and that might be the difference with the MG's.
I will test as well the G50 in more flights against the He111 as it easily sets other bombers on fire.
++++++

25 20mm hits on a he111 wing is far too much! On average it only took 20 20mm to down a gigantic B17! Il2 1946 has this down very well.

It's a definite immersion killer and 1946 is still miles ahead in this regard until they get this damage model at least some what calibrated. Despite more advanced architecture, it's porked currently.

there is also another very important thing to remember here that further puts all of this into perspective and that is that we are far 'better' pilots than the pilots combating these things in 1940, having had hundreds and hundreds of hours blowing up every size and shape aircraft over the years, not to mention the absence of fear- yet countless combat reports and footage reveal the destruction still yielded under their circumstances.

TomcatViP
05-20-2012, 05:43 AM
Rly ?

Then try to do that in real world with G, wind gust, turbulence, vibration, not 100% perfect mechanism and a real 3D perspective (and not 3D projected).

Then we will see who are the real aces ;)

No offense man. Just a reminder of what we do not to face in our sim.

tools4fools
05-20-2012, 08:17 AM
and that is that we are far 'better' pilots

On top of what Tomcat says we don't die, we just re-fly....

Well, indeed we are 'better' pilots as it is much easier for us, but that explains as well why many real pilots had very few victories.

Back to the DM. Yes it needs some work, but then the one from IL-2 46 didn't get there overnight either.
It has a lot of potential however I think.

Dunno how DM works really here are is my guess in this case:

Very few hits do no damage to those self sealing tanks.
Several hits result in a thin white spray, fuel leak
Sustained hits (steady burst of 2 sec well places in the area) results in fire
Lot of hits result in explosion

The problem with a Hurricane is that at least for of your guns hit the tank. If aim is not steady on the tank you will get only white thin fuel leak. If aim is square and steady on the tank the 4 guns will score so many hits that it goes directly to kaboom scenario.

Another thing I'm not sure is on who repeated hits on same area in different passes are treated.
You make one pas hit one area - like the fuel tank. White fuel leak.
Now you hit the same area again.
It does not seem that the damaged area and leaking fuel makes this area now more vulnerable.
Same goes for structural damage. Hit one area and do damage. Hit it again and damage should not only be 'on top of' the damage already be done but make it worse as the area is already weakened.
How does this work in game, anybody knows?

And a He 111 with a total of 800 spray and pray hits is no worse off than one with 300 spray and pray hits. Slow death circle, going lower and lower.
Crew seems never to abandon plane in such cases - while when on fire they start to bail out pretty quick.
Maybe it should be modeled that if the AI pilot cannot hold the plane anymore that he will give order to abandon the plane and bail out?


Yes, 20 rounds of 20mm is an awful lot to get that Heinkel down, however I will have to test fly that a bit more as it was ony one single test.

One overall problem of the DM is to have a balance of all weapons and plane models. Whatever you change results in a chain reaction across the whole bandwith.

With the 109 (MG only), G50 and Stuka I need 50-150 hits to down that He 111 and if I aim and hit well it is no problem to get those tanks on fire. Seems perfectly ok to me.
But I can go in to 100m and hit accurately with those nose mounted sniper guns.

The Hurricane can only be set convergence to what 180m or so (anyone can confirm minimum distance?), not closer, means it is much more difficult to accurately hit that tank area from a longer distance.
Going closer hitting is more difficult as you hit left and right of where you aim...
++++

tools4fools
05-20-2012, 08:27 AM
I have a Russian testing result against Bf 109 s-s tank, and they found that up to 20 (!!) hits were sealed when hit my RCMG fire.

I don't see a problem there with the current model, if hit square and fair the tanks to go kaboom or catch fire. Twin mounted rifle caliber guns show that.

Question is if you hit that tank let's assume with 7 hits on first pass, 9 hits on second pass, 11 hits on third pas, 6 hits on fourth pass you would assume that it catches fire sooner or later and the more passes you make the more total hits you score the more likely it should create a fire as the weaker the tank gets and more vulnerable once fuel starts seeping out of it.
This seems not to be the case however.

I searched, found nothing, but I take it there is no more 'arcade' mode which shows the hit arrows? I loved that feature in IL-2, in particular when testing damage models and your own shooting accuracy.
+++++