Reno air crash ( P51 )

[machoo]

P51 slams into spectator area. Holy moly , it looks like a Stuka !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6KNpqGCgFE&feature=player_embedded

[hiro]

yeah that's all over fox news . . . prayers go out to those involved and the pilot . . .


its funny on the news they keep going on how the plane was made in WW 2, it's not safe because it was made back in the 1st age before Númenor and the rings of power . . .

that we can have more safety standards and better planes . . . and back then we did what we could but now is not 1940's . . .

how they need to ban them, no more people spectating in bleacher seats next to runways and how unregulated Reno is . . .

and then they go how they should regulate it like airlines, and how air racing is unprofessional . . .

it didn't help that they had the fan talking about saying its like barnstorming in the 1920's, there is that danger factor . . . oh boy give them more ammo

man, the news gots more spin than all the DJ's in New York City, London, and Ibiza . . .


they had some FAA guys/gals watching too . . .

pretty soon you won't be able to spectate at the races . . .

i just hope they don't ban the unlimited category and fix the races so you can only use modern, composite planes with ceramic engines and cockpits with surround airbags etc . . .


I mean the pilots understand the danger, and kudos for those keeping the warbirds in a condition where they can participate in the races.


dang and the redbull had a good thing goin, it was cool to be into air racing like it is F1 or NASCAR.

I just hope they don't go overboard and ban / put so many restrictions its not worth air racing . . .

[Osprey]

Horrendous. It's been a bad season what with the loss of Big Beautiful Doll at Duxford and then the mysterious fatal crash of one of the Red Arrows.

[Zappatime]

Said on the B B C news the pilot was 74 and in good health, plane was a P51 Mustang, hit one of the main seating areas, possible mechanical failure , 3-4 dead including pilot, but that sounded like it could be a higher number from how they decribed the scene.

[Gomer Pyle]

yeah that's all over fox news . . . prayers go out to those involved and the pilot . . .


its funny on the news they keep going on how the plane was made in WW 2, it's not safe because it was made back in the 1st age before Númenor and the rings of power . . .

that we can have more safety standards and better planes . . . and back then we did what we could but now is not 1940's . . .

how they need to ban them, no more people spectating in bleacher seats next to runways and how unregulated Reno is . . .

and then they go how they should regulate it like airlines, and how air racing is unprofessional . . .

it didn't help that they had the fan talking about saying its like barnstorming in the 1920's, there is that danger factor . . . oh boy give them more ammo

man, the news gots more spin than all the DJ's in New York City, London, and Ibiza . . .


they had some FAA guys/gals watching too . . .

pretty soon you won't be able to spectate at the races . . .

i just hope they don't ban the unlimited category and fix the races so you can only use modern, composite planes with ceramic engines and cockpits with surround airbags etc . . .


I mean the pilots understand the danger, and kudos for those keeping the warbirds in a condition where they can participate in the races.


dang and the redbull had a good thing goin, it was cool to be into air racing like it is F1 or NASCAR.

I just hope they don't go overboard and ban / put so many restrictions its not worth air racing . . .


I always thought these racing P-51's were replicas made to more modern standards and with modern materials. If they are indeed 70 years old I can understand the concern.

Personally I'm torn and would almost prefer they flew them for show only, with more leniency and less stress on the airframe, that way we would have these birds around a lot longer, as historic icons. On the other hand, I do enjoy me a good race between any old pieces of machinery, be it cars, planes or steamrollers.


/Daniel

[Baron]

Sounds like a really good idea to let a 74 year old fly in that venue (high stake racing).


Wonder why we don't see that more often in say F1.


Condolences to those who died needlessly.



P.S. Not insulting the pilot or anyone, more the setup/phenomenon that is Unlimited Reno Air Racing = Extreme risk no rules no restriction what's the point racing. Imo.

[Madfish]

Duplicate thread by the way. This one was first: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=26260

[diveplane]

terrible accident but...


like it or not this man was way to old to get behind a fast ww2 warbird,
again always takes a disaster before changes made.


FAA needs to rethink safety at airshows and more health checkups for all
pilots young and old to get behind a cockpit to fly , fit enough for certain aircraft types to control fly.

also other note ,imo crowds at this event where far to close to runway display areas, officials made a wrong judgement here.

[bongodriver]

like it or not this man was way to old to get behind a fast ww2 warbird,

Can you provide evidence that backs this up? or is it just an oppinion, if the reasons for the accident turns out to be not pilot error but a serious mechanical failure can you explain how age is relevant?

you 'may' have a point with the crowd line proximity, but then what choices are we left with? ban air shows? put the crowd so far away that the whole point is defeated......as tragic as the event is, if things get regulated out of existense because a few people die once in a blue moon then there is practically no point to life because it would be so damned boring, let's all live in protected bubbles where no harm can ever come to us.

[diveplane]

Can you provide evidence that backs this up? or is it just an oppinion, if the reasons for the accident turns out to be not pilot error but a serious mechanical failure can you explain how age is relevant?

you 'may' have a point with the crowd line proximity, but then what choices are we left with? ban air shows? put the crowd so far away that the whole point is defeated......as tragic as the event is, if things get regulated out of existense because a few people die once in a blue moon then there is practically no point to life because it would be so damned boring, let's all live in protected bubbles where no harm can ever come to us.

either g load or heart attack prior to crash, head is not visible prior to crash.

again these old war bird pilots have to much ego , think they can still fly
but the bodies cant take the punishment really.


why i say age restrictions and frequent health checkups make sure your fit to fly.

pic below

Nosedive: The P-51 Mustang airplane is shown right before crashing into the grandstand. =note no pilot visible, either g lock , or he had a possible stroke heart attack and slumped over, speculation atm.., yes could be control surface linkage jammed? cant rule out that either atm, but nothing left of the aircraft to rebuild it,
is there a datalog black box even in these planes to salvage? this would show data.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/09/17/article-2038452-0DEFBBBC00000578-627_306x491.jpg

[ATAG_Snapper]

Can you provide evidence that backs this up? or is it just an oppinion, if the reasons for the accident turns out to be not pilot error but a serious mechanical failure can you explain how age is relevant?

you 'may' have a point with the crowd line proximity, but then what choices are we left with? ban air shows? put the crowd so far away that the whole point is defeated......as tragic as the event is, if things get regulated out of existense because a few people die once in a blue moon then there is practically no point to life because it would be so damned boring, let's all live in protected bubbles where no harm can ever come to us.


+1

[Sternjaeger II]

this is already being discussed in the Lounge, but anyway check this pic guys

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-201_162-10009462-3.html?tag=page;previous

the pilot is not in view, that's never a good sign.. considering the steep angle at which he's coming down, it's likely he's leaning on the stick.

[diveplane]

this is already being discussed in the Lounge, but anyway check this pic guys

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-201_162-10009462-3.html?tag=page;previous

the pilot is not in view, that's never a good sign.. considering the steep angle at which he's coming down, it's likely he's leaning on the stick.

already posted this up

[bongodriver]

Exactly!.....it is pure speculation at this time......sadly the aftermath looks like it is going to give little information as the impact seems to have left very little to examine....but I noticed something particularily stange with the image, the tailwheel is in the extended position, normally this is fully retracted, that immediately makes me suspect mechanical failure, the fact the pilot is not visible is extremely tenuous evidence, the cockpit is highly modified and the pilot is barely visible under normal circumstances.

[Sternjaeger II]

already posted this up

sorry, didn't notice your post.

These planes have no black boxes, so can't have a precise readout of what happened.

Another weird thing is the tailwheel down, that's unusual and kinda hard to explain.

[Sternjaeger II]

Exactly!.....it is pure speculation at this time......sadly the aftermath looks like it is going to give little information as the impact seems to have left very little to examine....but I noticed something particularily stange with the image, the tailwheel is in the extended position, normally this is fully retracted, that immediately makes me suspect mechanical failure, the fact the pilot is not visible is extremely tenuous evidence, the cockpit is highly modified and the pilot is barely visible under normal circumstances.

yeah, noticed the tailwheel too. The servo is hydraulic and connected to the main landing gear hydraulic line. Another wild guess of mine could be that he accidentally hit the emergency gear release, but the main gears didn't open cos he's pitching down and diving.

You'd still be able to see the head Bongo, these guys are well strapped in.

[bongodriver]

yeah, noticed the tailwheel too. The servo is hydraulic and connected to the main landing gear hydraulic line. Another wild guess of mine could be that he accidentally hit the emergency gear release, but the main gears didn't open cos he's pitching down and diving.

You'd still be able to see the head Bongo, these guys are well strapped in.

yes even if he was already dead, theres a good chance he has his head throws so far back in anticipation of the impact that is why he is not visible.....maybe

[diveplane]

yeah, noticed the tailwheel too. The servo is hydraulic and connected to the main landing gear hydraulic line. Another wild guess of mine could be that he accidentally hit the emergency gear release, but the main gears didn't open cos he's pitching down and diving.

You'd still be able to see the head Bongo, these guys are well strapped in.

well his heads nowhere to be seen in the pic? weird stuff indeed.
my only other guess was he was trying to bail , managed to unclip his seat harness, g forces slumped him forward, hence you cant see his head in pic?

[Feathered_IV]

Awful. :(

Was rather shocked to hear the pilot was 74 years old. I'm curious what age one has to be before they actually become too old to fly souped-up fighters at breakneck speed on the deck.

[diveplane]

Awful. :(

Was rather shocked to hear the pilot was 74 years old. I'm curious what age one has to be before they actually become too old to fly souped-up fighters at breakneck speed on the deck.

well maybe this will wake a few up that are in charge, and decide safer better FAA regulation air display rules.

typical always takes a disaster for changes to be made.

wont bring these people back though ..RIP

[bongodriver]

well his heads nowhere to be seen in the pic? weird stuff indeed.
my only other guess was he was trying to bail , managed to unclip his seat harness, g forces slumped him forward, hence you cant see his head in pic?

Yeah but this is where the speculation circus begins.....we could argue and debate in complete circles over any incident like this, only the professionals will give any kind of reasoned explanation.

My only real stance in this topic is that age is not relevant, a young guy could die suddenly, a young guy will make mistakes that his youthfull reactions can't compensate for........it's just irrelevant.

[JG52Krupi]

Yeah but this is where the speculation circus begins.....we could argue and debate in complete circles over any incident like this, only the professionals will give any kind of reasoned explanation.

My only real stance in this topic is that age is not relevant, a young guy could die suddenly, a young guy will make mistakes that his youthfull reactions can't compensate for........it's just irrelevant.

I agree with your what you say but that being said it is a high speed race and at that age you should be taking things a bit easier.

[diveplane]

Yeah but this is where the speculation circus begins.....we could argue and debate in complete circles over any incident like this, only the professionals will give any kind of reasoned explanation.

My only real stance in this topic is that age is not relevant, a young guy could die suddenly, a young guy will make mistakes that his youthfull reactions can't compensate for........it's just irrelevant.


well imo age is relevant , high g fighter and a 74 year old man behind the controls .

1= heart attack
2= g load


younger man can tolerate it more over a pensioner in the sky, past his best flying days, should have retired to flying cessnas straight and level.

even better retired grounded.

relevent to me for safer displays and skies.
.....

quicker the FAA or authorites step in imply new restrictions the better.

[winny]

It is strange that his head is not in view.

For anyone who's not seen these.

http://patdollard.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/eac2e787ec88fb14f80e6a7067004b9a.jpg

Same plane just before taking off

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/55424000/jpg/_55424158_012933869.jpg

Awful whatever happened.

[ElAurens]

One of my squad mates was 100 yards from the crash.

He and his companions are OK, at least physically.

Please stop this uninformed speculation and childish debate.

It serves no purpose other than to make cheap the lives that were lost and the lives that were scarred because of this tragedy.

Take some time to be thankful for your loved ones and the time you have with them.

*EDIT*

There is another photo that shows the left elevator trim tab missing. So let's not cherry pick photos, OK?

[winny]

One of my squad mates was 100 yards from the crash.

He and his companions are OK, at least physically.

Please stop this uninformed speculation and childish debate.

It serves no purpose other than to make cheap the lives that were lost and the lives that were scarred because of this tragedy.

Take some time to be thankful for your loved ones and the time you have with them.

*EDIT*

There is another photo that shows the left elevator trim tab missing. So let's not cherry pic photos, OK?

If that comment's aimed at me then I made no remark other than it was strange. I was posting the pic so people could see for themselves. It wasn't meant as a conspiracy/speculation thing.

[ElAurens]

No problem Winny.

I'm just a bit agitated over the wild speculation over this. When someone you know comes that close it puts the whole thing in a much different light.

[bongodriver]

well imo age is relevant , high g fighter and a 74 year old man behind the controls .

1= heart attack
2= g load


younger man can tolerate it more over a pensioner in the sky, past his best flying days, should have retired to flying cessnas straight and level.

even better retired grounded.

relevent to me for safer displays and skies.
.....

quicker the FAA or authorites step in imply new restrictions the better.


1. there have been countless instances of 20 year old professional sports players just dropping dead.

2. Red 4 of the red arrows, highly trained young man, speculated to have suffered g loc.

3. do you know how much g was being pulled at the time of the incident?

4. if the authorities apply age restrictions then prepare to see even more fatalities due to youthfull ego and overenthusiasm causing accidents, anytime authorities are called to action they take the lazyest route and make draconian bans, way to go...spoil the fun for future generations.

5. if there was so much negative g stopping the apparent gear deployment, then why are there no flailing arms of a dead or unconcious pilot seen pressed against the canopy?

[winny]

No problem Winny.

I'm just a bit agitated over the wild speculation over this. When someone you know comes that close it puts the whole thing in a much different light.

Cool, the last thing this thread needs is arguments. It would seem disrespectful.

[diveplane]

One of my squad mates was 100 yards from the crash.

He and his companions are OK, at least physically.

Please stop this uninformed speculation and childish debate.

It serves no purpose other than to make cheap the lives that were lost and the lives that were scarred because of this tragedy.

Take some time to be thankful for your loved ones and the time you have with them.

*EDIT*

There is another photo that shows the left elevator trim tab missing. So let's not cherry pick photos, OK?

no child debates here, entitled to our opinions just like you.

we are all sorry it happened , wont bring people back, but again new FAA display regulations imo need to take effect asap.

[ElAurens]

Cool, the last thing this thread needs is arguments. It would seem disrespectful.

Agreed.

Take care sir.

[ElAurens]

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/494/5e7548b1ec89fb14f80e6a7.jpg

Here is the photo I referenced.

Note the missing left elevator trim tab.

Not the first time this has happened to a P 51.

[Sternjaeger II]

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/494/5e7548b1ec89fb14f80e6a7.jpg

Here is the photo I referenced.

Note the missing left elevator trim tab.

Not the first time this has happened to a P 51.

it could also be all the way down, not to mention that the smoke pouring out of the radiator scoop area is dodgy to say the least.

Whichever the case, it's not the first time that these accidents happen in Reno, truth is that they're flying these machines close (and sometimes beyond) their edge. I remember years ago another P-51 which developed tail surface flutter and the plane smashed onto the ground..
let's not forget that this lot flies at 250mph 50ft from the ground..

I still think it's an unnecessary risk, especially with such machines.. but then again, this is my opinion..

[bongodriver]

not to mention that the smoke pouring out of the radiator scoop area is dodgy to say the least.

although Galloping ghost is modified to the extent i doesn't have the P-51 rad scoop or outlet.........looks to me the smoke is coming out of 3 specially modified outlets on the port side...perhaps this is perfectly normal for this aircraft.

[ElAurens]

Water vapor from the spray bar for enhanced evaporative cooling I do believe.

Oh and 250mph isn't even getting them warmed up. These are unlimited class aircraft. Steve Hinton qualified at almost 500mph this year in Strega.

[winny]

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/494/5e7548b1ec89fb14f80e6a7.jpg

Here is the photo I referenced.

Note the missing left elevator trim tab.

Not the first time this has happened to a P 51.

It does look like he's slumped over the stick in that shot. What a way to go :(

[ElAurens]

I have my thoughts on what caused this.

Some of my mates are very close to the historical aircraft community in the US. No one is pointing at pilot error or physical issues at this time.

Let's let the investigators have their say.

[bongodriver]

I also know of a couple of people from my online squadron who were close too and thankfully unscathed (we arent in the same online squad are we?)

Speculation is unavoidable sad to say, take a look at a site called PPrune (professional pilots rumour network)

It just concerns me when people start calling for immediate reviews of regulation (ultimately leading to a ban), everything gets banned and then theres nothing left in this world for all those old retired fuddy-duddys to do while they are supposed to be 'taking it easy'.

I still think it's an unnecessary risk, especially with such machines.. but then again, this is my opinion..

many people have been saying this about gun ownership.....

[diveplane]

I have my thoughts on what caused this.

Some of my mates are very close to the historical aircraft community in the US. No one is pointing at pilot error or physical issues at this time.

Let's let the investigators have their say.

we can have our say too. long as its not insulting or disrespectful.
entitled to our speculation as to what caused the crash.

if the FAA added data record boxes in all aircraft this could reduce the
time and theories as to what happened.
and yes maximum age to fly these war birds fully fit state body and mind.

not a 74 year old pensioner that should have enjoyed watching from ground retired.

[bongodriver]

The interview he gave for TV the day before gave me the impression he was pretty chipper and spritely for a 'pensioner', you seem to be a little unfair.....without actually saying it you are inferring he was a disabled old fogey who could barely walk? when the truth is he could probably out fly most younger pilots, he passed the required medical standards, I will tell you this now, there is no means of guaranteeing you won't drop dead from a heart attack at any age even if you just walked out of the AME's surgery after your ecg test.

[ElAurens]

Age discrimination is an awful thing.

Pity the young bucks don't seem to think they will ever grow old.

[diveplane]

The interview he gave for TV the day before gave me the impression he was pretty chipper and spritely for a 'pensioner', you seem to be a little unfair.....without actually saying it you are inferring he was a disabled old fogey who could barely walk? when the truth is he could probably out fly most younger pilots, he passed the required medical standards, I will tell you this now, there is no means of guaranteeing you won't drop dead from a heart attack at any age even if you just walked out of the AME's surgery after your ecg test.

take into account ground officials had the no flyzone way to close, and crowds way to close to runways.
if i was in investigation heads would be fired and rolled.

new laws implemented asap. so the reduction risk of accidents or possible disasters narrows down.yea i agree nothing is full proof but..


1=maximum age fly high g display and performance aircraft imo age 55 tops men woman =50
2=all aircraft be it a cessna air trike to a 747 , hot air balloon outfitted with some tracking and recording unit in the event of crash and recover, data can be pulled from it to narrow down cause.
3= display crowds pushed back from flighline runway no fly zones increased.

some of the measures that make sence to safely enjoy displays
and aircraft in flight.

[bongodriver]

1. thats ageist and sexist, without a shred of proof that these are necessary steps.
2. that's gonna cost.....who will pick up the tab
3. yes but will that 'ever' guarantee anything, lets just ban the whole thing because once airshows can only be viewed through hi-power binoculars then what's the point.

[diveplane]

1. thats ageist and sexist, without a shred of proof that these are necessary steps.
2. that's gonna cost.....who will pick up the tab
3. yes but will that 'ever' guarantee anything, lets just ban the whole thing because once airshows can only be viewed through hi-power binoculars then what's the point.

nothing sexist here. if i was charge thats what it would be.

cost would be loaded onto fly buffs want to wizz around. i know passenger aviation already have these measures in place tracking and data black box.

yep push back crowds from flightline.

[bongodriver]

nothing sexist here. if i was charge thats what it would be.

so it's not sexist just because its your oppinion?

cost would be loaded onto fly buffs want to wizz around

this kind of regulation forces the cost up on a pastime which is already stigmatised as a 'rich mans sport', which is why you won't find many warbird pilots younger than 55 because to be honest you need to be rich and retired to afford to do this, and flying schools just couldnt afford to soak up the cost of this either........death of recreational aviation.

yep push back crowds from flightline.

No push back the people who don't have an interest in this pastime from ever being able to make the rules.

[diveplane]

so it's not sexist just because its your oppinion?



this kind of regulation forces the cost up on a pastime which is already stigmatised as a 'rich mans sport', which is why you won't find many warbird pilots younger than 55 because to be honest you need to be rich and retired to afford to do this, and flying schools just couldnt afford to soak up the cost of this either........death of recreational aviation.



No push back the people who don't have an interest in this pastime from ever being able to make the rules.


rich retired could hire young fit pilots to fly the toys this employs people, always a workaround.
wont see the airforce hire 74 year olds fly f16s f22s . maximum minimum with
them. some are taking it the wrong way really its for safer displays and skies.



this new video below,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybgd0EfxWCI&feature=related

impact was so great see the motor being ejected from the air frame rolling many hundreds of feet away from impact.

he seamed to have almost dropped 70 80 degree nose first, quite a altitude as well

RIP to pilot and spectators that died.. sad day.

[diveplane]

witness reports pointing more to airframe failure ,or locked flight controls.

watch video below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4fJVMR5Nks&feature=related

[bongodriver]

rich retired could hire young fit pilots to fly the toys this employs people, always a workaround.
wont see the airforce hire 74 year olds fly f16s f22s . maximum minimum with
them. some are taking it the wrong way really its for safer displays and skies.


Rich retired worked hard all their lives so they might have at least some fun....youngsters can wait their turn.

Military wont hire anybody, you either volunteer or are conscripted, you are booted out at retirement because it's the way of the world with civil/military service, they recruit young because you are expected to learn and grow quickly at minimum cost, there are fast jet pilots who still fly in military service right up to retirement age, there have even been cases of fast jet pilots continuing careers after major surgeries (RAF jaguar pilot had heart and lung transplant and continued flying....sadly killed in a midair caused by a light aircraft)

young pilots crash too....do you have 'any' and I mean 'any' proof that age is a problem in this case? like official medical studies on the subject, or is it just ageism on your part.

[ATAG_Doc]

The smoke is his trademark for the plane. It's the Galloping Ghost so he can turn it off and on. You can see that here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLk3wwVrvwc

However here is a new video of the crash. Sorry if its already been posted in here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNtERSeYMUM&

Jimmy was a legend. He developed a residential community with approximately 180 homes in it and about 200 planes owned by the residents surrounding a 6000 foot runway in Florida. The flying community has suffered a huge loss.

RIP Jimmy.

[Mysticpuma]

New picture, less than a second from impact.....those in the way had no chance.

RIP

Another angle:

(Please be aware the posters on the following links have no compassion, I can't help their inhumanity) Click on the link above the white square to view the video.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffe_1316240833

For another video, one showing the inverted barrel roll he went into seconds before the collision, see this link:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2e9_1316224603

MP

[Mad G]

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/494/5e7548b1ec89fb14f80e6a7.jpg

Here is the photo I referenced.

Note the missing left elevator trim tab.

Not the first time this has happened to a P 51.


Also can be noticed the pilot´s helmet near the cockpit´s panel.

[bongodriver]

Also can be noticed the pilot´s helmet near the cockpit´s panel.

To be honest there is absolutely no way to tell that is what it is, it could be the instrument shroud, I get the feeling there are some who wan't to see it as such, but who knows....maybe he was unconcious, from mystycpumas video it almost seems like some sort of failure might have caused an uncommanded pitch up, which could have caught the pilot by such surprise he never managed to g srtain in time, at 500 mph an unexpected pitch up is going to load up massive amounts of g in a split second.

[Romanator21]

1=maximum age fly high g display and performance aircraft imo age 55 tops men woman =50
2=all aircraft be it a cessna air trike to a 747 , hot air balloon outfitted with some tracking and recording unit in the event of crash and recover, data can be pulled from it to narrow down cause.
3= display crowds pushed back from flighline runway no fly zones increased.

1) To be fair diveplane, having separate retirement ages based on sex is in fact sexist. They don't give out driver's licenses at different ages based on sex...

I get the fact that everyone is concerned about the pilot's age, but every pilot over a certain age or flying a certain type of aircraft undergoes a thorough medical examination at least every year. Even some 18-year-olds aren't fit to fly. The pilot in this case was strong and fit, and often outperformed many of the young lads. He was experienced and well qualified. The truth is, this was a mechanical failure, and it could have happened to anybody.

In fact, according to one report, he may have well saved lives. Apparently, the plane was going down uncontrollably and would have gone into the crows at a shallow angle, easily taking out hundreds of people. He could have been trying to dive nose first directly into the tarmac to avoid the crowd and minimize the effect of the debris. While this is a tragic occurence, it could have been much worse (In Ukraine a jet flew into the crowd after an engine failure. The pilots had been denied extra practice time, and were also not briefed as to the location of the crowd. The pilot instinctively pulled up to save the plane, but the plane then skidded along the ground, claiming almost 100 lives.)

2) Black boxes are between $10,000 and $15,000 each. They are large and heavy. If you put one in a C.152 there will be no place for the pilot. Considering the huge cost of the device, the FAA isn't going to subsidize that for every single plane or balloon. The cost is going to be shouldered by private aviation enthusiasts who are already paying through the nose. I had to take insane student loans to learn to fly a little Cessna 172, and I'll probably never pay them off completely before I die. Recreational amateur aviation, which started with the Wrights, Bleriot, Curtiss, Lindbergh, etc. will disappear.

3) I want to agree with you on this point, but these people chose to be there. I personally haven't been to an air display, and if I will go, I'll try to be sure that the seating arrangement is safe. It's a bit brutal for me to say this, but those folks knew that they were watching some potentially dangerous stuff. It's a risk that everyone takes when going to one of these shows.

While some safety measures should be implemented, like warning placards or having spectators sign a release, it wouldn't be the best idea to move the seats 5 km away. Frankly, that would defeat the purpose of going to an airshow in the first place, and in reality, does little or nothing to mitigate the risk (a plane can go out of control and travel that distance very quickly).


This is a shocking and horrifying tragedy, and my sincere condolences go out to the families of those lost and injured, but knee-jerk reactions like this are slowly suffocating private aviation in the US. Instead, we should take a moment to think about the best way to deal with this situation in everyone's favor and be prepared to deal with the risks when we do decide to enjoy an air show or similar event.

[ElAurens]

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/2903/ypwe1.jpg

The reason...

450+mph.

Trim tab fails.

High G nose up attitude because of broken trim tab.

Pilot blacks out, seat collapses, etc...

Pretty much spells it out.

[bongodriver]

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/2903/ypwe1.jpg

The reason...

450+mph.

Trim tab fails.

High G nose up attitude because of broken trim tab.

Pilot blacks out, seat collapses, etc...

Pretty much spells it out.

Now that is all the evidence I need to see........christ! poor guy had no chance.

[winny]

Wow, such a small part of the aircraft too.

That last video does look like he's trying hard to roll away from the crowd. It always amazes me how self-less pilot's can be when they know they're in trouble, without fail they think about the people on the ground.

Respect to him.

[Flying Pencil]

Sounds like a really good idea to let a 74 year old fly in that venue (high stake racing).


Wonder why we don't see that more often in say F1.


Condolences to those who died needlessly.



P.S. Not insulting the pilot or anyone, more the setup/phenomenon that is Unlimited Reno Air Racing = Extreme risk no rules no restriction what's the point racing. Imo.

PERFECT EXAMPLE of ignorant person spewing emotion tainted garbage the hurts everyone!!!1!one!

You sir, have GRIEVOUSLY INSULTED the family, air show events, the entire aviation community, and motor sports as well!

Car races and boat races kill participants and spectators EVERY YEAR. Why should air races be held to a different standard?

People operate dangerous machines into there 80's perfectly safely (and are medically checked out)

ALL organization endeavor to safety but nothing is 100%. It was years since the last spectator was injured in an aviation related accident.



Sent from my iPod Touch 4G using Tapatalk

[Flying Pencil]

Now that is all the evidence I need to see........christ! poor guy had no chance.

Negative!

Trim tabs do not fly the airplane, they HELP fly the airplane!

That said, flying that fast it would be very difficult to fight the forces and control it.


Sent from my iPod Touch 4G using Tapatalk

[bongodriver]

Negative!

Trim tabs do not fly the airplane, they HELP fly the airplane!

That said, flying that fast it would be very difficult to fight the forces and control it.


Sent from my iPod Touch 4G using Tapatalk

Trust me I know what trim tabs do, that said what exactly are you disagreeing with, aren't you just confirming my point?

[machoo]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffe_1316240833

High res video. You can see his parachute deploy from the impact. Ouch.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Can you provide evidence that backs this up? or is it just an oppinion, if the reasons for the accident turns out to be not pilot error but a serious mechanical failure can you explain how age is relevant?

you 'may' have a point with the crowd line proximity, but then what choices are we left with? ban air shows? put the crowd so far away that the whole point is defeated......as tragic as the event is, if things get regulated out of existense because a few people die once in a blue moon then there is practically no point to life because it would be so damned boring, let's all live in protected bubbles where no harm can ever come to us.

Sorry but its a known fact that aging does affect your performance. A slight difference in the force available to pull the stick may make the difference in such circumstances. It is a known fact that your eyes get weaker and many other things degrade to some extent.

I won't say don't let them fly but one should consider if they really should fly at this kind of event.

[bongodriver]

Sorry but its a known fact that aging does affect your performance. A slight difference in the force available to pull the stick may make the difference in such circumstances. It is a known fact that your eyes get weaker and many other things degrade to some extent.

I won't say don't let them fly but one should consider if they really should fly at this kind of event.

Of course....but he was passing medicals that said he was fit to do this, yelling out for age restrictions is just a blatant statement of mistrust towards all the professionals involved, you are questioning the abilities of the aviation medical examiners.

[ATAG_Doc]

Lets not forget that you can be too young as well. A man with experience is never at the mercy of a youngster with his theory.

[bongodriver]

Yeah I think sometimes people are too taken in by the holywood image of pilots, always portrayed as young supermen, the fact is physiologically there are no forces encountered that a reasonably fit old person can't endure, all this talk of eyesight fading etc, they let young pilots fly who need glasses....even in the military, you only have to have 20/20 on initial selection, if your eyesight fades subsequently they let you fly with glasses, I know a few old guys who have reflexes like a cat, Douglas Bader had no legs and was a top scoring fighter ace......

[SlipBall]

Sad, I hope some good will come from this accident...as a side note, this may have played a role:

" Leeward said major changes were made to the plane before this year's race. He said his crew cut five feet off each wing and shortened the ailerons -- the back edge of the main wings used to control balance -- to 32 inches, down from about 60 inches. The goal was to make the plane more aerodynamic so it goes faster without a bigger engine.
"I know the speed. I know it'll do the speed. The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK," he said."

[Mad G]

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9523/t1largpilotleewardfb.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/7/t1largpilotleewardfb.jpg/)

Seemed a very well fit old man. He was stunt pilot in many movies.

To his memory and my condolences to all families.

[wildone_106]

This is hidef vid, you can see his shoot try to deploy as he's thrown out:(

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ffe_1316240833

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Honestly I actually do mistrust the physicians knowing from first hand how often they are wrong, on some occasions with terrible consequences.

I will be the last one to deny some pleasure to a chap at some age but one surely has to apply reason.

I dunno what was the cause of the accident and possibly this thing could have happened to a guy in his best form too.

My response I made on a very general basis and I do think for the sake of the lives of uninvolved people (like the spectators) security primes above the joys by some pilots whatever age.

I mean it is not that some people are just dead. Wives have lost their husbands, husbands have lost ther wives, parents have lost their sons and daughters and children have lost a parent in this incident. A lot of people affected in a very drastic way.

[Feathered_IV]

Is there actually a cutoff age for this sort of racing, or is it as unlimited as the aircraft?

[danjama]

The man was certified medically to fly, regardless of his age. He had thousands of hours of experience. That should be enough to squash any discussion over the matter of age. And yet here you guys are...no respect.

[nearmiss]

Traveling at those speeds and manuevering hard stresses everything in any aircraft. A mechanical failure at those speeds, that low to the ground doesn't give much time for dealing with a problem.

The fans want to see the action, and the pilots have no choice. They must bring the action to lower levels.

The experienced pilot trying to parachute is a good indication there was a problem that he knew couldn't be solved. He didn't have time to do much of anything from what I saw.

[smokincrater]

Hmmm pretty nasty stuff.

[Flying Pencil]

Trust me I know what trim tabs do, that said what exactly are you disagreeing with, aren't you just confirming my point?

I disagree he did not have a chance.
However another source pointed out a very similar incident where pilot encountered a brief but very strong G forces.
Voodoo in 1999 I think.

So it seems maybe Jimmy was rendered unconscious for a few seconds.


Sent from my iPod Touch 4G using Tapatalk

[Flying Pencil]

take into account ground officials had the no flyzone way to close, and crowds way to close to runways.
if i was in investigation heads would be fired and rolled.

new laws implemented asap. so the reduction risk of accidents or possible disasters narrows down.yea i agree nothing is full proof but..


1=maximum age fly high g display and performance aircraft imo age 55 tops men woman =50
2=all aircraft be it a cessna air trike to a 747 , hot air balloon outfitted with some tracking and recording unit in the event of crash and recover, data can be pulled from it to narrow down cause.
3= display crowds pushed back from flighline runway no fly zones increased.

some of the measures that make sence to safely enjoy displays
and aircraft in flight.

Did you ever work or volunteer for an airshow ?

Did you even research the number of airshow accidents that killed spectators and why those spectator where killed?

I almost wonder if you went to an airshow....


Danger is everywhere and even driving is a risk, and what you suggest has no guarantee spectators are spared in another freak accident.


Sent from my iPod Touch 4G using Tapatalk

[Flying Pencil]

Is there actually a cutoff age for this sort of racing, or is it as unlimited as the aircraft?

FAA medical.
Look it up.
Show organizers can also deny a participant if they question his ability.


Sent from my iPod Touch 4G using Tapatalk

[Helrza]

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/2903/ypwe1.jpg

The reason...

450+mph.

Trim tab fails.

High G nose up attitude because of broken trim tab.

Pilot blacks out, seat collapses, etc...

Pretty much spells it out.

This is not the only thing ive noted that has gone wrong, in a few other pics there is a burst of steam/smoke from behind where the radiator intake should be (has been removed for streamlining i guess) which can be seen in another pic posted here, and also in another picture the tail wheel has extended. To me it seems it could be that something has blown out, throwing bits that have damaged other parts of the a/c, such as the trim tab and tail wheel locking mechanism.

[BadAim]

Has no one heard the old adage "If you've found nothing worth dying for, you've found nothing worth living for" ? I laugh in the face of all of you people who think this or that is "to dangerous" for the public. I have an answer for you: lock yourselves in your house and rot and leave the rest of us alone, because you'll never understand that risk is the only thing that brings value. Every single person who died in Reno yesterday "died with their boots on" doing what they loved (even if it was from a spectator seat), let them have that honor.

Two of my friends were 100' away, and I would have been there had finances allowed, don't try to tell me what I should or shouldn't be allowed to do you sniveling pukes.

If I have offended anyone with the above rant; To bad, I find myself constrained by common sense and simple cannot control my emotions when faced with people who have none.

[machoo]

This is from a local F15 pilot apparantly

"
Guys,

I’ve done some more research. This photo shows that Jimmy’s elevator trim tab is apparently missing. If that’s the case, there is some precedent to tell us what might have happened.

The same thing happened to Bob Hannah in 1996 in Bob Button’s Mustang, called “Voodoo Chile” at the time. Hannah’s trim tab came off at 450 MPH, and the airplane pitched up at over 10Gs, popping the tailwheel out and G-LOCing the pilot. He woke up at 9000’ AGL and successfully landed.

10Gs could also explain why the Jimmy’s helmet is not visible in the canopy (the photo I sent in the previous email.) He might have been slumped down below the rail.

--Buck "

[Rjel]

That old cliche that "they died doing what they loved" is a little hard to take. I doubt those who died had that as their last conscious thought. Unless I'm in the middle of the most beautiful woman I've ever known, I doubt it would be mine.

[41Sqn_Stormcrow]

Has no one heard the old adage "If you've found nothing worth dying for, you've found nothing worth living for" ? I laugh in the face of all of you people who think this or that is "to dangerous" for the public. I have an answer for you: lock yourselves in your house and rot and leave the rest of us alone, because you'll never understand that risk is the only thing that brings value. Every single person who died in Reno yesterday "died with their boots on" doing what they loved (even if it was from a spectator seat), let them have that honor.

Two of my friends were 100' away, and I would have been there had finances allowed, don't try to tell me what I should or shouldn't be allowed to do you sniveling pukes.

If I have offended anyone with the above rant; To bad, I find myself constrained by common sense and simple cannot control my emotions when faced with people who have none.

Oh, then you have been attributed with the privilege to attribute who has common sense and who has not? I'd call this hybris.

Fact is that most spectators will expect the organizers to do the necessary for their safety and have trust in instructions given by authorities, instructions that are expected to assure safety.

According to your logic one could as well lift ALL restrictions to the spectators and even allow them to stroll on the runway if they like.

[Kongo-Otto]

Oh, then you have been attributed with the privilege to attribute who has common sense and who has not? I'd call this hybris.

Fact is that most spectators will expect the organizers to do the necessary for their safety and have trust in instructions given by authorities, instructions that are expected to assure safety.

According to your logic one could as well lift ALL restrictions to the spectators and even allow them to stroll on the runway if they like.

Never argue with an idiot. He will lower you to his level and beat you with experience.

[Feathered_IV]

"Is there actually a cutoff age for this sort of racing, or is it as unlimited as the aircraft?"

FAA medical.
Look it up.
Show organizers can also deny a participant if they question his ability.

Thanks, looked it up. Seems 60 is the cutoff age but has been lifted to 65 if a second pilot under 60 is present.

[bongodriver]

"Is there actually a cutoff age for this sort of racing, or is it as unlimited as the aircraft?"



Thanks, looked it up. Seems 60 is the cutoff age but has been lifted to 65 if a second pilot under 60 is present.

That sounds to me like the limit applied to public transport, it's the same in europe, so this shouldn't apply to the recreational/sport flying category because no passengers are involved.

[bongodriver]

I disagree he did not have a chance.
However another source pointed out a very similar incident where pilot encountered a brief but very strong G forces.
Voodoo in 1999 I think.

So it seems maybe Jimmy was rendered unconscious for a few seconds.


Sent from my iPod Touch 4G using Tapatalk

Ok so you just wanted to be a little pedantic......I'm sorry he had a very slight chance.

[Al Schlageter]

Years ago I was at a boat race in Picton Ont. The 280 class race had started and 12 boats were entering the first turn. One boat kept going straight and another boat drove over top of the boat. The boat that kept going straight was driven by a 25 year old. The autopsy showed he had suffered a massive heart attack and was dead even before being hit by the other boat doing close to 100mph.

Joe Yancey was in the Rare Bear pits at the time and said he was pretty sure the steam boil-off cooler system exploded.

For those posting excrement, shut the F up!!!!!!

[Feathered_IV]

That sounds to me like the limit applied to public transport, it's the same in europe, so this shouldn't apply to the recreational/sport flying category because no passengers are involved.

Thats what I figured too. Very curious about unlimited racing though. Would certainly like to find out.

[BadAim]

According to your logic one could as well lift ALL restrictions to the spectators and even allow them to stroll on the runway if they like.

You say that and wonder at my qualifications to claim common sense?

First off my diatribe was not any kind of argument at all for anything, It was a purely emotional venting of my disdain for the aforementioned pukes.

I actually have enough faith in the human race to be of the opinion that everyone at Reno on Friday knew the risks and were willing to take them.

You and your friends obviously think they are stupid.

Now who is qualifying who has common sense or not?

[Sternjaeger II]

gaaawd, I left this topic run and look where we got..

First of all, to all the "the pilot was too old" guys, all I can say is please shut up. If medical authorities reckon the man is fit to fly, he will fly, and that's it.

I reckon that whichever the cause of the accident (technical fault or pilot's fault or both), the fact still remains that Reno is potentially a risky place to be, more than the average airshow, mainly because the aeroplanes are pushed to the limit, and a technical failure is a common occurrence during these events. Spectators should be warned about this, but you still would have people going, just like you have idiots cramming the sides of a rally track, despite the serious danger and countless accidents.

I would ask, for the respect of the people involved and victims, that we avoid any further witch hunting until we have some more information on what happened.

[bongodriver]

The whole air racing scene wouldn't exist if nobody wanted to go and see it, lets aske the people who like air racing what should be done, I don't agree with bullfighting but it's not my place to make any regulations on it.

[Sternjaeger II]

The whole air racing scene wouldn't exist if nobody wanted to go and see it, lets aske the people who like air racing what should be done, I don't agree with bullfighting but it's not my place to make any regulations on it.

well, considering the money they spend on the Air Races and the relatively small number of spectators, I would think of it as a risky game for spoilt, wealthy people more than a proper "air racing scene".

That is probably more suitable to Red Bull Air Races, where the difference is made by piloting skills, more than machines worth millions of dollars with insane engine units on.

[bongodriver]

To be honest I agree the modifications done on beautifull pieces of heritage is saccrilige (I believe the money could build bespoke machines for the job).

but it's their business, let them get on with it, the crowds 'want' to go see....let them, move the crowd line back.....fair enough, but all this crap talk of age limits is just disgusting.

[Sternjaeger II]

To be honest I agree the modifications done on beautifull pieces of heritage is saccrilige (I believe the money could build bespoke machines for the job).

but it's their business, let them get on with it, the crowds 'want' to go see....let them, move the crowd line back.....fair enough, but all this crap talk of age limits is just disgusting.

I 100% agree with you.

[IamNotDavid]

Air racing is incredibly dangerous. If men with more money than brains want to race we should just toss them off tall buildings and let them race to the ground. At least those races won't destroy any historic aircraft, or kill bystanders who have no idea what sort of danger they are in.

Hopefully the people who run the Reno race will finally come to their senses and end the carnage.

[Jungmann]

Engineering question I've wondered about since the crash for any Mustang experten that may be about.

The NX-71 prototype flew in 1941, if I remember right. NAA engineers were designing an airplane that could do about 350 mph max. So they designed two elevator trim tabs each with three hinges, the center hinge taking the actuating rod, figuring how light they could make the parts and still handle the max load, the way engineers do.

And if I remember right, early B and C models had some problems with the tail section coming off at the attach point under the vertical fin leading edge, so NAA beefed up the aft section. Given the increased speed of the Merlin models, did they beef up the trim tabs and their hardware while they were at it?

And considering hot-rodded Unlimited versions of the Mustang can go 450 and more, is it common practice for builders of these racing planes to beef up the trim hardware even more to compensate?

Or was #177 flying with 1941-vintage elevator tab hardware?

Not trying to speculate too much, but the departed tab made me wonder.

Jungmann

[Hunden]

Air racing is incredibly dangerous. If men with more money than brains want to race we should just toss them off tall buildings and let them race to the ground. At least those races won't destroy any historic aircraft, or kill bystanders who have no idea what sort of danger they are in.

Hopefully the people who run the Reno race will finally come to their senses and end the carnage.

It's part of something that many of you seem to be lacking, freedom of CHOICE. It's their money, aircraft and their lives and that includes the people who love to watch from the ground. Nobody wanted to die that day but I'm sure they knew the risks. Those of you that have little freedoms do not know what you are lacking because you have never had it. Give up your freedoms for a little security and you shall have neither. I'm sure someone really important said that. So take your Government supplied opinions and take that same leap off that tall building you want to throw others from.

[IamNotDavid]

It's part of something that many of you seem to be lacking, freedom of CHOICE. It's their money, aircraft and their lives and that includes the people who love to watch from the ground. Nobody wanted to die that day but I'm sure they knew the risks. Those of you that have little freedoms do not know what you are lacking because you have never had it. Give up your freedoms for a little security and you shall have neither. I'm sure someone really important said that. So take your Government supplied opinions and take that same leap off that tall building you want to throw others from.

Freedom of choice is not absolute. And most of the people who watch air racing have no idea what the actual risk is, or they're in complete denial about it.

[IamNotDavid]

By the way, I'm 100% in favor of them racing in Cessna 172s. They can strap jets on them for all I care. I'm just sick of them destroying beautiful warbirds.

[warbirds]

Air racing is incredibly dangerous. If men with more money than brains want to race we should just toss them off tall buildings and let them race to the ground. At least those races won't destroy any historic aircraft, or kill bystanders who have no idea what sort of danger they are in.

Hopefully the people who run the Reno race will finally come to their senses and end the carnage.

Men will always do dangerous things, thats why they are men. We would never have gotten where we are today without men doing dangerous things but maybe you prefer living in a cave with your mama.

[IamNotDavid]

Men will always do dangerous things, thats why they are men. We would never have gotten where we are today without men doing dangerous things but maybe you prefer living in a cave with your mama.

Flying WW2 aircraft really fast in 2011 isn't doing very much to advance civilization.

[Kongo-Otto]

By the way, I'm 100% in favor of them racing in Cessna 172s. They can strap jets on them for all I care. I'm just sick of them destroying beautiful warbirds.

People have been killed and in this case i really don't care about an airplane.
I am sure the organizers will learn from this horrible accident and find a way to continue this kind of Air races with more safety for the people which come to such events.

What was the reason for the accident is right now mere speculation, i'm sure there will be an proper investigation and until the results are officially published, we should think about those who had been killed and their beloved ones who right now are mourning about the death of an Husband, Girlfriend, Son or Daughter.

[Hunden]

Freedom of choice is not absolute. And most of the people who watch air racing have no idea what the actual risk is, or they're in complete denial about it.

Freedom of choice is absolute only if you have it. If you don't then your statement would be correct.

[IamNotDavid]

People have been killed and in this case i really don't care about an airplane.
I am sure the organizers will learn from this horrible accident and find a way to continue this kind of Air races with more safety for the people which come to such events.

What was the reason for the accident is right now mere speculation, i'm sure there will be an proper investigation and until the results are officially published, we should think about those who had been killed and their beloved ones who right now are mourning about the death of an Husband, Girlfriend, Son or Daughter.

If you really cared about the people you would be in favor of ending air racing. Or you have absolutely no idea how dangerous it is.

[IamNotDavid]

Freedom of choice is absolute only if you have it. If you don't then your statement would be correct.

No, it isn't absolute. Absolute freedom of choice is anarchy. If that's what you want you should move to Somalia.

[Kongo-Otto]

If you really cared about the people you would be in favor of ending air racing. Or you have absolutely no idea how dangerous it is.

First of all i'm german, why should i give anykind of advise to the American people what the should do? I think they can decide pretty good for them self.
If they want to go there, its their right to go there, as Hunden said it's Freedom of choice. And he's dam right about it.

Myself i wouldn't go there, because i am not interested in this kind of racing sport. That also is a form of Freedom of choice.

What you want is taking grown people and treat them like childs, i am strictly against such methods. People should decide by them selves if they wanna go to an event of any kind of entertainment, it's not the Job of the Government to decide this for the people!

[IamNotDavid]

First of all i'm german

Germans have a proud history of personal freedom. :rolleyes:

[Hunden]

No, it isn't absolute. Absolute freedom of choice is anarchy. If that's what you want you should move to Somalia.

Within the law and common sense.........................................didn 't realize I had to explain.

[IamNotDavid]

Within the law and common sense.........................................didn 't realize I had to explain.

Common sense has nothing to do with air racing.

[Kongo-Otto]

Germans have a proud history of personal freedom. :rolleyes:

You can't insult me, that needs much more than you are!
and yes germany has gained a proud history of personal freedom since 1945, brought to us by THE Nation of freedom, the USA.

[bongodriver]

You can't insult me, that needs much more than you are!
and yes germany has gained a proud history of personal freedom since 1945, brought to us by THE Nation of freedom, the USA.


great, nobody will argue the USA were instrumental in the outcome of the war.....it's just a shame the Germans didn't pay more attention the first time they handed your asses to you in WWI.

[IamNotDavid]

You can't insult me, that needs much more than you are!
and yes germany has gained a proud history of personal freedom since 1945, brought to us by THE Nation of freedom, the USA.

Yes, THE nation of FREEDOM (as long as you're not dark skinned, female, or gay).

[IamNotDavid]

More people were probably killed the night before in Reno from Drunk driving or eating some bad food.

If drunks died at the same rate as Reno air racers the highways would be covered with dead drunks and their victims.

[Kongo-Otto]

David stop trolling around in this thread will you?

[bongodriver]

If drunks died at the same rate as Reno air racers the highways would be covered with dead drunks and their victims.

I am intrigued, do you have a link to some stats on this claim, I would like to give the benefit of doubt on what sound like a wildly exaggerated claim.

[IamNotDavid]

I am intrigued, do you have a link to some stats on this claim, I would like to give the benefit of doubt on what sound like a wildly exaggerated claim.

Google the number of dead at Reno the last few years. I don't know the totals, but it's pretty bad.

[bongodriver]

Google the number of dead at Reno the last few years. I don't know the totals, but it's pretty bad.


My first google hit came up with 44 deaths in an 18 year history of Reno air racing.....Christ that's like a busload, can you imagine a busload of people dying every 18years.......carnage, I'm convinced, from now on it's road travel all the way for me.

Oops....I got the figures wrong, it was 18deaths in 44 years

[Hunden]

Yes, THE nation of FREEDOM (as long as you're not dark skinned, female, or gay).

What? We have a black president, and I'm sure our female and gay population would like it better in lets say the middle east...... where their just overflowing with equal rights. Name some countries with more dark skin, female and or gays in civil service or elected office. You are talking out of your ass and this is coming from a dark skin American.( Puetro Rican )

[Kongo-Otto]

Hunden don't feed the troll, David Hayward isn't worth it.

[IamNotDavid]

44 in 18 years at Reno is approximately the equivalent of about 150 dying every year at air shows in the US. 150. Every year. How long do you think air shows would last with that sort of casualty rate?

[IamNotDavid]

What? We have a black president, and I'm sure our female and gay population would like it better in lets say the middle east...... where their just overflowing with equal rights. Name some countries with more dark skin, female and or gays in civil service or elected office. You are talking out of your ass and this is coming from a dark skin American.( Puetro Rican )

We didn't have a black president when we imposed FREEDOM on Germany.

[bongodriver]

44 in 18 years at Reno is approximately the equivalent of about 150 dying every year at air shows in the US. 150. Every year. How long do you think air shows would last with that sort of casualty rate?

No read again, I got it wrong, it's 18 in 44 years, that's like 18 every 44 years by my calculations, 150 a year is something you just made up.

[IamNotDavid]

Oops....I got the figures wrong, it was 18deaths in 44 years

That is about 50 air show deaths every year in the US.

[IamNotDavid]

No read again, I got it wrong, it's 18 in 44 years, that's like 18 every 44 years by my calculations, 150 a year is something you just made up.

The Blue Angels and Thunderbirds fly about 70 shows total every year. If we only count those shows a ratio of 18 deaths for every 44 years is about about 30 air show deaths every year in the US. Even if air shows were not banned we would run out of pilots.

edit it's worse (50ish) if we count all the air shows

[bongodriver]

That is about 50 air show deaths every year in the US.

Well no...it's actually .4 deaths year at Reno alone, which is considered to be of the highest fatality rate, in order to have 50 deaths a year there would have to be 125 events with an equivalent average fatality rate a year, but the reality is that air shows as a whole have minuscule fatality rates and that is on a global scale, theres probably less than 50 deaths a year at air shows around the whole world.

[IamNotDavid]

Well no...it's actually .4 deaths year at Reno alone, which is considered to be of the highest fatality rate, in order to have 50 deaths a year there would have to be 125 events with an equivalent average fatality rate a year, but the reality is that air shows as a whole have minuscule fatality rates and that is on a global scale, theres probably less than 50 deaths a year at air shows around the whole world.

That is my point. There are about 140 big air shows each year in the US. If the fatality rate were the same as Reno there would be 30 air show deaths every year. Compared the air racing the fatality rate for air shows is minuscule. Hell, the fatality rate in the Colosseum was probably favorable to air racing.

[bongodriver]

That is my point. There are about 140 big air shows each year in the US. If the fatality rate were the same as Reno there would be 30 air show deaths every year. Compared the air racing the fatality rate for air shows is minuscule. Hell, the fatality rate in the Colosseum was probably favorable to air racing.

Well no, you were trying to make some weird claim that 150 people were being killed at air shows every year, in the US alone, the fact is airshow deaths will not gain in rate at all.

[IamNotDavid]

Well no, you were trying to make some weird claim that 150 people were being killed at air shows every year, in the US alone, the fact is airshow deaths will not gain in rate at all.

No, I wasn't. 150 would be the number to die if the rate was 44 in 18 years that you quoted for Reno. 18 in 44 years equates to 30 dead each year at air shows. 30 dead each year is still enough to be the end of air shows.

[bongodriver]

No, I wasn't. 150 would be the number to die if the rate was 44 in 18 years that you quoted for Reno. 18 in 44 years equates to 30 dead each year at air shows. 30 dead each year is still enough to be the end of air shows.

No 18 in 44 years is .4 deaths a year, remember I mentioned I got the figures switched...please pay attention, even if it was 44 in 18 years that's still only 2.4 deaths a year, either way the fact is there aren't 30 deaths a year, even if in one single year there are a total of 30 deaths the subsequent average will be less, you are in a sad strange fantasy land my friend.

[Robotic Pope]

No, I wasn't. 150 would be the number to die if the rate was 44 in 18 years that you quoted for Reno. 18 in 44 years equates to 30 dead each year at air shows. 30 dead each year is still enough to be the end of air shows.

I don't know why you are talking about the dangers and numbers of deaths when you made it pretty clear earlier in the thread that you only care about the WWII aircraft and not about the people.

[IamNotDavid]

No 18 in 44 years is .4 deaths a year, remember I mentioned I got the figures switched...please pay attention, even if it was 44 in 18 years that's still only 2.4 deaths a year, either way the fact is there aren't 30 deaths a year, even if in one single year there are a total of 30 deaths the subsequent average will be less, you are in a sad strange fantasy land my friend.

Yes, it's .4 deaths per year over 70 shows. 70*.4 is 28. I rounded up to 30.

So, if the death rate for air shows was the same as for Reno we would see 30 dead every year at air shows in the US. It's simple math.

[IamNotDavid]

I don't know why you are talking about the dangers and numbers of deaths when you made it pretty clear earlier in the thread that you only care about the WWII aircraft and not about the people.

I'm just pointing out that if air shows had the same death rate as Reno we would quickly run out of air show pilots.

[BadAim]

I'm just pointing out that if air shows had the same death rate as Reno we would quickly run out of air show pilots.

Actually you just like covering our computer screens with your drivel about how smart you are. You pointed out no such thing, you've only contradicted yourself for three pages.

[IamNotDavid]

Actually you just like covering our computer screens with your drivel about how smart you are. You pointed out no such thing, you've only contradicted yourself for three pages.

The stats don't lie. The Reno death rate (per Bongo) translates to 30 air show deaths each year. If you have stats which contradict that feel free to post them.