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View Full Version : Jafa's Merlin sound vs Devs.


Catseye
09-11-2011, 07:58 PM
Why is it that a modder can get very close to a great Merllin fly by sound and the devs can't?

I wonder, do the devs read the accolades given to certain sounds by the user group and think about officially duplicating it with their tools?

Why has it taken years throughout IL2 and now COD to not have great sounding fly bys and yet modders came along and did it?

I think that sound has always been on the back burner.

Love to hear some comments.

If they can't get the fly bys right, I hope a certain modder gets his to run in the latest version.

pupo162
09-11-2011, 08:02 PM
from what ive heard the fact that modders dont have to worry about copyrights has a lot to do with it (you dont actually think Modders record themselfs every plane in il2 do you? )

Ze-Jamz
09-11-2011, 08:05 PM
why is it that a modder can get very close to a great merllin fly by sound and the devs can't?

I wonder, do the devs read the accolades given to certain sounds by the user group and think about officially duplicating it with their tools?

Why has it taken years throughout il2 and now cod to not have great sounding fly bys and yet modders came along and did it?

I think that sound has always been on the back burner.

Love to hear some comments.

If they can't get the fly bys right, i hope a certain modder gets his to run in the latest version.

beta

Catseye
09-11-2011, 08:23 PM
from what ive heard the fact that modders dont have to worry about copyrights has a lot to do with it (you dont actually think Modders record themselfs every plane in il2 do you? )

Of course not. The issue is as I said, "using their tools" to duplicate the sound.
It's technical yes, but other sims have been successful.

Catseye
09-11-2011, 08:24 PM
beta

For 12 years?

Through IL2 and up until now?

If they get the Merlin sound between the Beta and final release I think it will be a miracle - but if they do, I'll be the first to congratulate them.

41Sqn_Stormcrow
09-11-2011, 08:45 PM
Mh. I wonder what the community would have said if the sound was excellent but the graphics and/or physics completely sh1tty ...

:)

If you answer this question as I would suspect you'll know why the retail sound is what it is knowing that the IL2 team is very very small and lacks the funds that some ego shooter chain producers have.

mkubani
09-11-2011, 08:55 PM
From a virtual pilot point of view: fly by sounds are the least important sounds in any flight simulator. 99% of the sim time we spend in the "office" = cockpit.

Basically, you may appreciate nice fly by only if you are sitting on the runway with your engine off and conopy open. How many of us do that? And if yes, how often? The important sounds are the ones you hear from the cockpit. We should seek top fidelity there. External sounds are more for movie makers than for virtual pilots.

I don't know the limitations / priorities of IL-2 1C team, but fly bys would be on the bottom of my list. Cockpit sounds on the very top, on the other hand.

My 2 cents.

pupo162
09-11-2011, 09:01 PM
From a virtual pilot point of view: fly by sounds are the least important sounds in any flight simulator. 99% of time you spend the time in the "office" = cockpit.

Basically, you may appreciate nice fly by only if you are sitting on the runway with your engine off and conopy open. How many of us do that? And if yes, how often? The important sounds are the ones you hear from the cockpit. We should seek top fidelity there. External sounds are more for movie makers than for virtual pilots.

My 2 cents.

+1, so right!

fireflyerz
09-11-2011, 09:11 PM
Quality always shines through - and as for distance sound modding , myself and others have been doing that to Il2 for a long time now , but overall its just nice to see the audio side been given some attention by a developer , lets just hope that luthier has the forsight to open everything up to the community as a whole cos there are some top notch people out there;) , corse - that all depends on weather they can get the basic engine off the ground.

skouras
09-11-2011, 09:36 PM
beta

agree
however
they actually make the 109 excellent

philip.ed
09-11-2011, 09:40 PM
Quality always shines through - and as for distance sound modding , myself and others have been doing that to Il2 for a long time now , but overall its just nice to see the audio side been given some attention by a developer , lets just hope that luthier has the forsight to open everything up to the community as a whole cos there are some top notch people out there;) , corse - that all depends on weather they can get the basic engine off the ground.

Well said (ironic time you posted this mate)

ATAG_Snapper
09-11-2011, 09:51 PM
+1 Catseye

Any film maker will agree that good audio is actually more important than good video. When the picture suddenly goes out on your TV you usually hold off a bit from changing the channel if you can still hear what's going on. However, when the sound goes off -- even with the picture going -- the channel usually gets flipped immediately. In a flight sim, both video and audio are important. Audio is not LESS important.

I'm probably the only one here who has two buttons programmed on my throttle - one for external, one for flyby. For me the only sound that beats my stroked Harley is a Merlin engine in full cry. Jafa nailed the external sound; the flyby is darn close. Online I'm in the cockpit 100% (usually no choice, anyway! ;) ), offline I go external and flyby a LOT, maybe even TONS!!! :)

jimbop
09-11-2011, 10:11 PM
I prefer the pre-patch Merlin cockpit sounds simply because I can no longer easily tell the rpm in the 2600-2900 range by sound.

Plt Off JRB Meaker
09-11-2011, 10:57 PM
The first time I heard Jafa's Merlin I thought that is it,that is dam well it!!!,the sim for me,personally came alive on that day,I have never forgotten that.

Whilst I can't deny the devs have done an outstanding job on the sounds,and I love the new 109 sounds,they are just superb,for me Jafa's Merlin still reigns supreme,those flybys,oh man,just incredible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpq4Tu2NnrQ&feature=related

DC338
09-11-2011, 11:27 PM
Early war Merlins have a different sound to late war merlins.

No601_Swallow
09-11-2011, 11:29 PM
From a virtual pilot point of view: fly by sounds are the least important sounds in any flight simulator. 99% of the sim time we spend in the "office" = cockpit.

Basically, you may appreciate nice fly by only if you are sitting on the runway with your engine off and conopy open. How many of us do that? And if yes, how often? The important sounds are the ones you hear from the cockpit. We should seek top fidelity there. External sounds are more for movie makers than for virtual pilots.

I don't know the limitations / priorities of IL-2 1C team, but fly bys would be on the bottom of my list. Cockpit sounds on the very top, on the other hand.

My 2 cents.

+1 (!)

ATAG_Doc
09-11-2011, 11:33 PM
Early war Merlins have a different sound to late war merlins.
+1

ATAG_Snapper
09-12-2011, 12:37 AM
Hahahaha -- I LOVE this video!!!!! :)

Sven
09-12-2011, 01:12 AM
From a virtual pilot point of view: fly by sounds are the least important sounds in any flight simulator. 99% of the sim time we spend in the "office" = cockpit.

Basically, you may appreciate nice fly by only if you are sitting on the runway with your engine off and conopy open. How many of us do that? And if yes, how often? The important sounds are the ones you hear from the cockpit. We should seek top fidelity there. External sounds are more for movie makers than for virtual pilots.

I don't know the limitations / priorities of IL-2 1C team, but fly bys would be on the bottom of my list. Cockpit sounds on the very top, on the other hand.

My 2 cents.

Exactly.

speculum jockey
09-12-2011, 01:29 AM
Early war Merlins have a different sound to late war merlins.

Right now we're not getting a very good facsimile of either when in fly-by mode.

ATAG_Snapper
09-12-2011, 01:32 AM
Right now we're not getting a very good facsimile of either when in fly-by mode.

+1

He||, I'd be happy with the original K5054 2-bladed fixed prop flyby sound! LOL

Tiger27
09-12-2011, 01:36 AM
From a virtual pilot point of view: fly by sounds are the least important sounds in any flight simulator. 99% of the sim time we spend in the "office" = cockpit.

Basically, you may appreciate nice fly by only if you are sitting on the runway with your engine off and conopy open. How many of us do that? And if yes, how often? The important sounds are the ones you hear from the cockpit. We should seek top fidelity there. External sounds are more for movie makers than for virtual pilots.

I don't know the limitations / priorities of IL-2 1C team, but fly bys would be on the bottom of my list. Cockpit sounds on the very top, on the other hand.

My 2 cents.


My thoughts as well, can't recall listening to the fly by sounds, if I want too hear a Merlin fly by I will take a look at youtube for a real one, it is a flight sim after all, the idea is to be in the cockpit.

Tree_UK
09-12-2011, 09:31 AM
from what ive heard the fact that modders dont have to worry about copyrights has a lot to do with it (you dont actually think Modders record themselfs every plane in il2 do you? )

lol, you cannot copyright a 'sound'. When was the last time you heard of anyone being sued by Rolls Royce over the sound of a Merlin.

You can buy engine sounds for as little as $1 from lots of different websites.

Trumper
09-12-2011, 10:48 AM
My thoughts as well, can't recall listening to the fly by sounds, if I want too hear a Merlin fly by I will take a look at youtube for a real one, it is a flight sim after all, the idea is to be in the cockpit.
So on that logic it shouldn't be modelled,very strange.Don't forget you are not always in the cockpit with it shut.Don't forget that if and when the game opens up as was supposed to happen in the future where you can do other things such as ground AAA duties you would need to hear them then.
It should be modelled and properly,it is a huge part of the sim.

Meusli
09-12-2011, 11:07 AM
lol, you cannot copyright a 'sound'. When was the last time you heard of anyone being sued by Rolls Royce over the sound of a Merlin.

You can buy engine sounds for as little as $1 from lots of different websites.

Would that remain the same if you used it in a commercial product? I would expect there would be a price for unit sold. Anyway Luthier said that the sounds are not finished yet so I expect a lot more to come.

Bewolf
09-12-2011, 12:01 PM
lol, you cannot copyright a 'sound'. When was the last time you heard of anyone being sued by Rolls Royce over the sound of a Merlin.

You can buy engine sounds for as little as $1 from lots of different websites.

Ah, the joys of a simple world.

The problem is not so much Rolls Royce, but the guy/company that did the recordings. Professional recordings require quite a bit of very sophisticated equipment, especially if you want to catch the whole bandwith from idle to full power from both inside and outside the cockpit as well as different angles from outside. You also need an aircraft owner willing to let his aircraft being used in this way, which usually comes with a fee as well.

Understandably, those people doing those recordings want a bit of money for the effort putting into that.

I kinda doubt that getting some recordings with a home camera at a flight show will do the job.
Going by that, I'd really like to see some professional sound recordings with everything required for 1$. Some links would be great.

ATAG_Doc
09-12-2011, 02:22 PM
You patent an invention; you secure trademark rights in a symbol associated with your company or product. . Sure, you can get one on a sound. MGM registered the roar of its lion as a trademark, and NBC registered its three-toned chime as a service mark.

Sternjaeger II
09-12-2011, 02:42 PM
From a virtual pilot point of view: fly by sounds are the least important sounds in any flight simulator. 99% of the sim time we spend in the "office" = cockpit.

Basically, you may appreciate nice fly by only if you are sitting on the runway with your engine off and conopy open. How many of us do that? And if yes, how often? The important sounds are the ones you hear from the cockpit. We should seek top fidelity there. External sounds are more for movie makers than for virtual pilots.

I don't know the limitations / priorities of IL-2 1C team, but fly bys would be on the bottom of my list. Cockpit sounds on the very top, on the other hand.

My 2 cents.

well, you can definitely hear a flyby sound when you get jumped by another plane, and this is in real life too.

I think the truth is that for years they didn't bother about fixing the sounds simply cos it wasn't a priority to them. Let's be frank, IL-2 interface and attention to details has never been one meant for immersion like you had in all the other games.. The whole IL-2 saga can kind of be regarded as a never ending beta really.

ATAG_Snapper
09-12-2011, 03:48 PM
So on that logic it shouldn't be modelled,very strange.Don't forget you are not always in the cockpit with it shut.Don't forget that if and when the game opens up as was supposed to happen in the future where you can do other things such as ground AAA duties you would need to hear them then.
It should be modelled and properly,it is a huge part of the sim.

+1

Besides, external sounds and flybys are a feature of this sim. If it's going to be done, then it should be done right. I've never understood the thinking that "This is the way you should be enjoying the sim -- MY way. YOUR way is wrong!" Because I happen to enjoy -bigtime- going external frequently to watch -- and hear -- the action from that perspective it's wrong? Or not as important???? :confused:

Devs: please fix the sounds that need fixing. Especially the Merlin external and flyby sounds. :)

IMHO, all sounds should be done correctly, not just those that interest a few.

esmiol
09-12-2011, 03:52 PM
what is wrong with you? the sound are still beta! they still working on it and they will still be in beta after this official patch.

then don't worry... and don't ask dev to work on sound...they already do it!

ATAG_Snapper
09-12-2011, 04:03 PM
what is wrong with you? the sound are still beta! they still working on it and they will still be in beta after this official patch.

then don't worry... and don't ask dev to work on sound...they already do it!

What is wrong with me? Four things:

1) People who tell me what to think
2) People who tell me what to say
3) People who tell me what to do
4) The Merlin external and flyby sounds

The first three problems I have comes from marrying an American. She got me into this freedom of expression thing which annoys those who know better than me how I should conduct myself. The last problem is my British ancestry, in which the sound of a Merlin engine is in our genes and in our blood which can be very annoying to flight simulation developers.

Other than that, everything is just hunky dory, mate! :)

furbs
09-12-2011, 04:20 PM
You know Snapper, your the spiting image of my uncle Fred!!

ATAG_Snapper
09-12-2011, 05:07 PM
I take that as a compliment! It's an honour resembling any relative of yours, Furbs. :)

The American influence has absolutely ruined me. As a Canuck I'm obliged by our Constitutional law to be unfailingly polite and blandly agreeable about everything except hockey and beer. Thirty-three years of Yankee independence of thought, word, and action have castigated me from my well-behaved friends and family......not to mention a number of fellow forum members! LOL

ATAG_Doc
09-12-2011, 07:25 PM
I use to have a Canadian wife. I left her in Peterborough.

Robotic Pope
09-12-2011, 07:56 PM
what is wrong with you? the sound are still beta! they still working on it and they will still be in beta after this official patch.

then don't worry... and don't ask dev to work on sound...they already do it!

I think your manners are still in beta because they are not good. I hope you can work on this and that we will see an improvement with a patch for your mouth.

Richie
09-13-2011, 05:34 AM
Their cockpit sound of the 109 is very good.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50JXKxMLyUc&feature=channel_video_title


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBrZHUif9Ac&feature=channel_video_title

FlushMeister
09-13-2011, 09:35 AM
Exactly, and IMO i think the new sounds are amazing, MAN people are very demanding for a game that cost 50 bucks on steam, it should be like 500 bucks for the in sane quality you're after.

from what ive heard the fact that modders dont have to worry about copyrights has a lot to do with it (you dont actually think Modders record themselfs every plane in il2 do you? )

ATAG_Snapper
09-13-2011, 02:23 PM
Exactly, and IMO i think the new sounds are amazing, MAN people are very demanding for a game that cost 50 bucks on steam, it should be like 500 bucks for the in sane quality you're after.

Or a thousand bucks. Or free, like RoF -- which have excellent engine sounds. The Merlin sounds in Cliffs of Dover are not amazing. They don't even sound like Merlins. Earlier sims reproduced the iconic Merlin engine sounds very well -- Jane's World War Two Fighters which came out at the turn of the century, for example.

We're not asking for insane quality, but if you're going to do something, then it should be done right. Some of us have been anticipating this sim for over seven years, and The Battle of Britain is near and dear to our hearts. It was the sound of Merlin engines overhead that gave hope to the Brits down below that a handful of pilots -- "The Few" -- were keeping the Nazi jackboots from marching up Whitehall. What I honestly believe is that the 1C devs do not understand that, as well as many fellow forum members here that have no emotional roots in the significance of that 1940 turning point in history.

The only way I can make a comparison is listening to Roseanne Barr singing your favourite song on karaoke night. Well, maybe not that bad -- but close! :grin:

SQB
09-13-2011, 04:02 PM
Exactly, and IMO i think the new sounds are amazing, MAN people are very demanding for a game that cost 50 bucks on steam, it should be like 500 bucks for the in sane quality you're after.

I don't like it, my seat doesn't vibrate quite right and the octane of the fuel being used in the sound effects of the game is clearly 98 octane when it should be 130, obviously!


Meanwhile when will those lazy bastards mail me my free set of joysticks for the plane's in the game, the exact replicas of the cockpit, and the rack which sits behind me so when I get shot down I get shot through the chest.


Nah, in all honesty, once they get rid of those gaps in the sound as you rev up, I will be so goddamn happy. Just listening to the 109 (in game) makes my heart swell! Congrats on the brilliant job.

Baron
09-14-2011, 04:25 PM
Or a thousand bucks. Or free, like RoF -- which have excellent engine sounds. The Merlin sounds in Cliffs of Dover are not amazing. They don't even sound like Merlins. Earlier sims reproduced the iconic Merlin engine sounds very well -- Jane's World War Two Fighters which came out at the turn of the century, for example.

We're not asking for insane quality, but if you're going to do something, then it should be done right. Some of us have been anticipating this sim for over seven years, and The Battle of Britain is near and dear to our hearts. It was the sound of Merlin engines overhead that gave hope to the Brits down below that a handful of pilots -- "The Few" -- were keeping the Nazi jackboots from marching up Whitehall. What I honestly believe is that the 1C devs do not understand that, as well as many fellow forum members here that have no emotional roots in the significance of that 1940 turning point in history.

The only way I can make a comparison is listening to Roseanne Barr singing your favourite song on karaoke night. Well, maybe not that bad -- but close! :grin:


RoF free? Good luck doing anything usefull online for example with the "free" version. ;) Most of the RoF fans have spent insane amount of cash on the game, far more than CoD costs.

And the sounds, well, its quite easy to get away with engine sounds from WWI since almost no one knows how they should really sound like.


BTW. Luthier and team are trying to make a game representing BoB (as close as possible) NOT to make sure every "Brit" get the "right" emotions/feelings when playing it, the two are worlds apart imo when it comes to amount of work involved. Sry if im being blunt.

ATAG_Snapper
09-14-2011, 04:31 PM
RoF free? Good luck doing anything usefull online for example with the "free" version. ;) Most of the RoF fans have spent insane amount of cash on the game, far more than CoD costs.

And the sounds, well, its quite easy to get away with engine sounds from WWI since almost no one knows how they should really sound like.

You missed the whole point of my post with your nitpicking. :rolleyes:

Catseye
09-14-2011, 05:12 PM
BTW. Luthier and team are trying to make a game representing BoB (as close as possible) NOT to make sure every "Brit" get the "right" emotions/feelings when playing it, the two are worlds apart imo when it comes to amount of work involved. Sry if im being blunt.

Then, explain why the countless hours applied to making trains that have turning wheels, or cars, trucks and other miscellaneous ground vehicles look and act authentic at the expense of applying these hours to the prime focus of aircraft authenicity of which AUTHENTIC sound is integral. After all, it is a FLIGHT SIM!

These sounds are not magic to obtain - there are open market samples everywhere. There are copyright samples everywhere. You can get the recordings yourself by contracting out. So many ways but it takes some cash, some dedication and some market savvy (client wants/needs), to obtain them. What may have been an issue is a focus of attention elsewhere. (Perhaps in areas that do not concern flight?)

This applies not only to the Merlin, but to all aircraft in the sim. I call your attention to all those that go ooooooh! at the inclusion of the turbo whine of the 109. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Blackdog_kt
09-14-2011, 06:48 PM
I hope this doesn't turn into another "my spit/109 is discriminated against by your 109/spit" thread.

ATAG_Snapper
09-14-2011, 08:12 PM
I hope this doesn't turn into another "my spit/109 is discriminated against by your 109/spit" thread.

Point taken. That would be counterproductive, to be sure. On the positive side, the devs have shown how good the sound engine can be as they've capably demonstrated with the 109 sounds AND the Merlin start up and in-cockpit sounds. To the devs: nicely done. Please, let the tweaking continue! :)

Richie
09-14-2011, 10:41 PM
Also didn't they say the beta sounds aren't the finished product? Give it some time.

41Sqn_Stormcrow
09-14-2011, 10:53 PM
Then, explain why the countless hours applied to making trains that have turning wheels, or cars, trucks and other miscellaneous ground vehicles look and act authentic at the expense of applying these hours to the prime focus of aircraft authenicity of which AUTHENTIC sound is integral. After all, it is a FLIGHT SIM!

These sounds are not magic to obtain - there are open market samples everywhere. There are copyright samples everywhere. You can get the recordings yourself by contracting out. So many ways but it takes some cash, some dedication and some market savvy (client wants/needs), to obtain them. What may have been an issue is a focus of attention elsewhere. (Perhaps in areas that do not concern flight?)

This applies not only to the Merlin, but to all aircraft in the sim. I call your attention to all those that go ooooooh! at the inclusion of the turbo whine of the 109. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

With all respect but just downloading free files won't help anything. Please think about what is really required for sound design in a flight sim. You quickly will come to the conclusion that it is not as simple as that.

And BTW the RoF sounds are quire accurate when comparing to original sounds that ARE available for FULL replicas because there are planes out there that use original engines.

Rattlehead
09-14-2011, 11:29 PM
IMHO, all sounds should be done correctly, not just those that interest a few.

I can't agree more.

Catseye
09-15-2011, 03:07 AM
With all respect but just downloading free files won't help anything. Please think about what is really required for sound design in a flight sim. You quickly will come to the conclusion that it is not as simple as that.

Not saying download free files.
I said that there were samples everywhere, some free most copyright.
I'm referring to professional recordings that are available to the broadcast industry as sound effects. I'm also aware of the binaural sound thingy that was discussed quite deeply in IL2 and difficulties in just popping in pre-recorded sounds that would not be compatible for the affect required. If sounds are to be digitized then a good place to start would be to listen to professional sound files and emulate it as close as possible.

What I'm saying is: I really love the IL2 series. I think COD is fantastic. But I'm really frustrated by the apparent difficulty in reproducing a sound that is so distinct and identifyable after all these years within IL2 and now in COD. I'm of the opinion that not enough time was spent in the sound area or perhaps left until last. I support them in their efforts. Having spent many years in IT and project management I am fully aware of the complexities involved in bringing home a finished product - a deliverable. I would truly hope that a committment to an accurate aircraft sound would be one of the deliverables. Some assurance that they are working on trying to get them right would be a great help. Regardless, if they don't get it right this time round there will be lots of comments and a desire by many to switch to third party sounds. Surely the devs can master this?

Hope this makes sense.

Richie
09-15-2011, 05:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYMlKUXt9Vc&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPmEtwTSQcE&feature=channel_video_title


I think these two compare well.

nearmiss
09-15-2011, 03:18 PM
I really enjoy the sounds in the IL2 mod packs.

IMO, I care less who does the sounds. I remember loving the sound packs from CFS2 third party devs. I particularly enjoyed the F4U deep throated roar. Those sounds are still available I'm sure on SOH.

I did notice from some videos that opening canopy sounds don't change. I am no sound expert by any means, but I know that isn't right.

Someone mentioned about fly by sounds and such not being important. I don't agree. I often just play a mission, click on autopilot and let it play out. I enjoy watching the action just like watching videos. Then I click around between planes, watch flybys,etc. It's just part of the simulation package so why not enjoy it.

Hope we get a good sound package, but third party packages will probably become the better sound packs as they have in other sims.

LoBiSoMeM
09-15-2011, 03:26 PM
I like some mods in IL-2 series, but the majority are just overestimated...

In new UP RC, a Tempest Mk V can outturn all Spitfires...

If that occurs in vanilla IL-2, the biggest flow of whinne of all time will be seen... ;)

nearmiss
09-15-2011, 05:15 PM
The Tempest may have a zero A6M flight model under the skin. LOL

All that glitters isn't gold.

OhMargott
01-20-2013, 01:36 AM
Please can anyone give me a link to jafa's sound mod? Please I want it so bad and I've been searching for 2 hours now...

Skoshi Tiger
01-20-2013, 05:01 AM
From a virtual pilot point of view: fly by sounds are the least important sounds in any flight simulator. 99% of the sim time we spend in the "office" = cockpit.

Basically, you may appreciate nice fly by only if you are sitting on the runway with your engine off and conopy open. How many of us do that? And if yes, how often? The important sounds are the ones you hear from the cockpit. We should seek top fidelity there. External sounds are more for movie makers than for virtual pilots.

I don't know the limitations / priorities of IL-2 1C team, but fly bys would be on the bottom of my list. Cockpit sounds on the very top, on the other hand.

My 2 cents.

+1

It would be interesting to see how many of the people supporting the sound mod have actually sat in a merlin engined aircraft with the engine turned on, let alone running up to full power?

I doubt it would be many.

By all means make it sound good, but it doesn't mean its realistic.

Codex
01-20-2013, 11:39 AM
You do realise this thread is two years old.

To get the sound files try the IL-2 mods.