Very short development update

[Timberwolf]

when is the banjo patch install coming?

[Blackdog_kt]

We're not being kept in the dark. There have been regular updates.

The problem is that the regular update process goes something like this:

Luthier: Update!

Rabble: Luthier, you are the greatest!

2 hours later

Rabble: Luthier, why didn't you mention X.

4 hours later

Rabble: Luthier didn't mention X because they don't realize it's a problem.

6 hours later

Rabble: Luthier didn't mention X because they don't know how to fix it.

12 hours later

Rabble: Luthier didn't mention X because he doesn't respect us!!

16 hours later

Rabble: Luthier, you suck!!!!

24 hours later:

Rabble: Luther, when are you going to give us an update???

Well, the updates are not that regular, not that i mind however, if there's nothing new to say (eg, when something is complete) or there are changes to announce (say for example, the roadmap is revised because they decide to fix things in a different sequence) there is nothing to announce in an update apart from what we got today ("we're working on such and such, things are progressing this way, thanks").

However, the rest of the post is actually a pretty accurate take on things and i couldn't help but laugh a bit while reading it.

Despite the fact that i don't necessarily agree with a lot of what you usually say, mostly how you say it actually, on the forums in general, this post is the best and most accurate summary of 1st page posts during the past few months. :-P

[BMCha]

I'm pretty sure that by "regular" he meant "usual", not "regularly scheduled".

EDIT: As I'm not entirely sure whether the two responses below interpreted this post correctly, I was referring to the sentence in the quote above me that reads "the regular update process goes something like this:". Blackdog's "the updates are not that regular" indicates that he interpreted the word in the usage of scheduling. I was simply trying to clear that up by bringing the other usage to attention. (the one I believe was intended)

Personally I have a neutral but optimistic view of the current state of the game and the updates, though like many others I'd be happier if communication would improve. I do not, however, painstakingly go through each word of any update trying to glean extra information and go around making assumptions based on that.

[AndyJWest]

I'm pretty sure that by "regular" he meant "usual", not "regularly scheduled".

He might have meant "regularly scheduled". Halley's comet is regularly scheduled to come around every 76 years... ;-)

I think Luthier probably meant exactly what he said. Which was very little, other than that CloD was still being worked on. That's good enough for me.

[David Hayward]

The fact that you are trying to parse what I meant by "regular" is EXACTLY why the Luthier updates turn into such a disaster. It was a joke. "Regular" means nothing. Don't try to parse every word that Luthier posts. Every Luthier post can be summed up by 6 words: "we are still working on it".

[ptisinge]

Thanks for the update, and keep the good mood and the humour indeed, I really don't know how you do: when I read these forums and see some of the finest breed of obsessive trolls that seem to live her perpetually, all the inspiration I get is a giant sigh and facepalm. It's worse than witnessing drivers' behaviour at peak hour in Sydney.:roll:

[Opitz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs56Mr9iFqQ

Luthier is still playing fishing simulator....

[Sternjaeger II]

The fact that you are trying to parse what I meant by "regular" is EXACTLY why the Luthier updates turn into such a disaster. It was a joke. "Regular" means nothing. Don't try to parse every word that Luthier posts. Every Luthier post can be summed up by 6 words: "we are still working on it".

lol u r starting to sound like his biographer ;-)

[WTE_Galway]

lol ... good post Luther

I demandzzz my banjo goodness now.

If i don't get banjo goodness right now I will register 6 new accounts in 6 shiny new names and post from each complaining about how I bought this game expecting banjo and was sorely disappointed and saddened.

[Ataros]

We're not being kept in the dark. There have been regular updates.

The problem is that the regular update process goes something like this:

Luthier: Update!

Rabble: Luthier, you are the greatest!

2 hours later

Rabble: Luthier, why didn't you mention X.

4 hours later

Rabble: Luthier didn't mention X because they don't realize it's a problem.

6 hours later

Rabble: Luthier didn't mention X because they don't know how to fix it.

12 hours later

Rabble: Luthier didn't mention X because he doesn't respect us!!

16 hours later

Rabble: Luthier, you suck!!!!

24 hours later:

Rabble: Luther, when are you going to give us an update???

Yes.

I guess very soon luthier will start reading only every 10th or 20th page of such threads as I started to do since Saturday.

Luthier, beware, here is the forums mood update for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faxW0GcyyDo

btw. could we have daily devs mood updates in a locked thread? :grin: Say with title "How was this day at MG..."

ps. To those few actually interested in playing the game, check out regular live MP updates from Repka #3 by Sergey kvach in this channel. Guys have quite some fun almost every day http://en.justin.tv/dip78/videos

[furbs]

Or maybe its like this...

Luthier: Update! heres some stuff...some stuff needs more time, you get it shortly! New commuication guy coming soon as well!!!

Rabble: Luthier, you are the greatest!

1 week later...

Rabble: Luthier, some stuff in that patch doesn't work! other stuff is now broken! when is other stuff coming you said was? is coms guy coming soon?? please TY.

Luthier: *silence*

1 week later...
Luthier: *silence*

Rabble: Luthier? is stuff coming? is the broken stuff going to be fixed? Coms guy? Luthier??? GRRRRRRR!!!!

Luthier: *silence*

1 week later....

Rabble: Luthier?? GRRRRR come on Luthier we want stuff, game is not good and some broken without stuff!! GRRRRRRRRRRRR Coms guy??????
WINGE!!!! broken stuff???

Luthier: Hi! heres some pics of other stuff you can buy!!! yer, stuff is coming...

Rabble: YER!!! GREAT!!! Luthier when is stuff coming? Coms guy? is broken stuff fixed? Luthier?

Luthier: *silence*

1 week later...

Luthier: *silence*

Rabble: GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! WTF where is stuff!!! ??? you said???? stuff??? Coms guy???? broken?? GGGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRR!!! WINGE!!!!!

Luthier: *silence*

1 week later....

Luthier: Hi! here is some banjo music!! yer yer stuff is coming...


Rabble: *EXPLODES!!!!* Coms guy??

[Ze-Jamz]

Depends...MOC versions will be extremely valuable, those that have been opened and are a bit weary looking, not so much. But I always wanted a Millenium Falcon...that was one awesome toy.

:)

My cousins had everything to do with Star Wars and they were a bit younger too... i didnt like them very much :rolleyes::cool:

The Falcon however they didn't have as it was far too big for their bedroom with all the other stuff they had....

rofl, yep everytime I stayed around the house..guess what toy i took!

MASSIVE bargaining tool :-D and i got to play with whatever I wanted and for how long i wanted lmao

[Tree_UK]

Or maybe its like this...

Luthier: Update! heres some stuff...some stuff needs more time, you get it shortly! New commuication guy coming soon as well!!!

Rabble: Luthier, you are the greatest!

1 week later...

Rabble: Luthier, some stuff in that patch doesn't work! other stuff is now broken! when is other stuff coming you said was? is coms guy coming soon?? please TY.

Luthier: *silence*

1 week later...
Luthier: *silence*

Rabble: Luthier? is stuff coming? is the broken stuff going to be fixed? Coms guy? Luthier??? GRRRRRRR!!!!

Luthier: *silence*

1 week later....

Rabble: Luthier?? GRRRRR come on Luthier we want stuff, game is not good and some broken without stuff!! GRRRRRRRRRRRR Coms guy??????
WINGE!!!! broken stuff???

Luthier: Hi! heres some pics of other stuff you can buy!!! yer, stuff is coming...

Rabble: YER!!! GREAT!!! Luthier when is stuff coming? Coms guy? is broken stuff fixed? Luthier?

Luthier: *silence*

1 week later...

Luthier: *silence*

Rabble: GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! WTF where is stuff!!! ??? you said???? stuff??? Coms guy???? broken?? GGGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRR!!! WINGE!!!!!

Luthier: *silence*

1 week later....

Luthier: Hi! here is some banjo music!! yer yer stuff is coming...


Rabble: *EXPLODES!!!!* Coms guy??

lol, that is it, right on the nail.

[bongodriver]

Carefull Tree, you are beginning to sound like a sychophantic fanboi with all the Hi5'ing you keep giving the whinge bretheren.......BOOOM!

[JG52Uther]

Carefull Tree, you are beginning to sound like a sychophantic fanboi with all the Hi5'ing you keep giving the whinge bretheren.......BOOOM!

That works both ways you know...

[bongodriver]

That works both ways you know...

No I didn't, but I'd love to hear how.

[Madfish]

I try to see luthiers post positive as well.

There is one thing some people seem to forget though: relations. Relationship management with customers and fans is so important and so extremely easy to do.

You don't need to go to the end of the world. Just take 10 minutes a day and prepare something. A small post or save these 10 minutes and give a more detailed post once a week etc.

How long does it take you to upload a screenshot? To say: "hey we're working on this and that - the problem was crazy but we're finally making progress folks! cheer for us :)"

Answer: it's not even taking you 5 minutes. If you think highly of your product and your loyal fans then this is not something crazy to do!


The problem I see with many russian developers is: You guys s**k (are bad) at communicating and marketing. You're friendly folks so please don't hide that from us. It's sets a very negative mood and that is not what the game or your work deserves.

Nothing is perfect - be open to admit flaws and try to push the limits forward.

At least that is my opinion :)

The reason they're not doing it is because they probably assume their customers are not children who need to be told every 10 minutes that we're not there yet. Crazy, I know.

Oh how very kind of you to call me a child just because I ask for and advise a professional company with more than a dozen employees, engaged in making a game for an global audience, to actually do some customer relationship management.
What you just stated only leaves the explanation of a lack of real life experience. Because in my real life information management is a key quality of personal and business scenarios.

Let me tell you one thing. In the world of (especially working) adults communication is just a very, very important thing these days. And contrary to your, not well thought through, statement it is not that important with kids. It gets more and more important the higher you climb the "ladder". The more responsability you have.

Further, if you would really read my post (sadly you didn't, at least it appears that way) you'd understand that I didn't ask them for a status update every 5 minutes.

All I'm asking for is a little respect and professionalism.

Where I'm coming from there is a saying: Kunde ist König (customer is king) and I need to abide by it, and I do so willingly, to keep my clients happy and guess what: they are happy when I tell them specific dates, when I inform them of problems, when I tell them when these problems will be solved and that I'm working on it, when I give them status updates etc. - especially if they paid for the product already! Something that is now different from before, when CloD wasn't released yet.
In other words: it's professional and ethically correct to inform the community and your customers. Also it's very, very positive for your companies image. Who will really trust a company programming a game if they can't even use a simple internet forum or upload images? Right: no one. Because they appear lazy and, excuse me, stupid, if they can't even interact with a simple tool like a forum. Also there shouldn't be a language barrier either - you can't write code in russian so they must have guys who are able to speak english. And even if they posted in russian - I bet the community would find people willing to translate. But right now they ignore their clients and fans - a fatal mistake.

Also you don't sell an unfinished product and then save 5 or 10 minutes each day in a full development team of a dozen guys or way more. Their team has enough productive hours each day - if one of them would take only 10 minutes to inform the community it wouldn't affect their development at all.


So before you start calling people childish you might take that advice yourself and actually stop being one in the first place. ;)

[synti]

Oh how very kind of you to call me a child just because I ask for and advise a professional company with more than a dozen employees, engaged in making a game for an global audience, to actually do some customer relationship management.
What you just stated only leaves the explanation of a lack of real life experience. Because in my real life information management is a key quality of personal and business scenarios.

Let me tell you one thing. In the world of (especially working) adults communication is just a very, very important thing these days. And contrary to your, not well thought through, statement it is not that important with kids. It gets more and more important the higher you climb the "ladder". The more responsability you have.

Further, if you would really read my post (sadly you didn't, at least it appears that way) you'd understand that I didn't ask them for a status update every 5 minutes.

All I'm asking for is a little respect and professionalism.

Where I'm coming from there is a saying: Kunde ist König (customer is king) and I need to abide by it, and I do so willingly, to keep my clients happy and guess what: they are happy when I tell them specific dates, when I inform them of problems, when I tell them when these problems will be solved and that I'm working on it, when I give them status updates etc. - especially if they paid for the product already! Something that is now different from before, when CloD wasn't released yet.
In other words: it's professional and ethically correct to inform the community and your customers. Also it's very, very positive for your companies image. Who will really trust a company programming a game if they can't even use a simple internet forum or upload images? Right: no one. Because they appear lazy and, excuse me, stupid, if they can't even interact with a simple tool like a forum.

Also you don't sell an unfinished product and then save 5 or 10 minutes each day in a full development team of a dozen guys or way more. Their team has enough productive hours each day - if one of them would take only 10 minutes to inform the community it wouldn't affect their development at all.


So before you start calling people childish you might take that advice yourself and actually stop being one in the first place. ;)

+1

This post should be studied carefully by many. Sim and computer game production is submitted to the same laws of business as is production of any others goods. Thank you for this mature and realistic posting mr. Madfish.

[Sternjaeger II]

Madfish, don't bother with what David writes, it's obvious that he's either Luthier's biographer or Luthier himself in disguise ;)

Completely agree with your post, now that should be made a sticky one, not some "dev updates" :rolleyes:

[bongodriver]

I paid money for a game.....not Luthiers life story, couldn't give a toss if Luthier posts an update or a little joke, I have never seen any game developer obligated to 'say' anything, development updates are a priviledge not a right, the argument the game is 'broken' is debateable, there are many who play it well enough with some 'bugs'.....since when was a 'buggy' game a broken one, if that was the case then every piece of software needs to be condemned.

[furbs]

When you have to turn off landscape features to get sound i would say its broken bongodriver.

[Tree_UK]

When there is no cooperative play as advertised on the box - broken
When you cant apply FSAA - Broken
No DX11 as advertised - Broken
Dynamic weather- Broken
etc etc....

[bongodriver]

When you have to turn off landscape features to get sound i would say its broken bongodriver.

Then I would say it's a little overdramatic, sounds like a 'bug' to me, and it was made clear that the sound engine was being re-built ground up....or does nobody remember that update? that will take time and will be done when its done, no need for updates on how many toilet breaks Luthier is making.

[klem]

Oh how very kind of you to call me a child just because I ask for and advise a professional company with more than a dozen employees, engaged in making a game for an global audience, to actually do some customer relationship management..............

So before you start calling people childish you might take that advice yourself and actually stop being one in the first place. ;)

Please stop quoting David Hayward, you are defeating my ignore list. But as it has leaked through, we are not asking to be told every ten minutes, we are asking to be told on a reasonably frequent basis, say weekly or fortnightly, when we can expect our faulty goods to be fixed. And more people, new customers for example, will keep asking until they know.

Question: Have MG admitted there are defects in CoD and acknowledged what they are?
Answer: Yes
Question: Are MG Programme managing their way out of this hole?
Answer: No idea
Question: Do MG have Recovery Programme milestones for the key faults that prevent many people actually playing the game they have bought?
Answer: No idea.
Question: Is the Recovery Schedule, if there is one, on target? Is there schedule slip? Can it be explained to the waiting customers?
Answer: No idea.

I used to work in simulation. Any programme Manager that turned up at programme reviews without answers to those questions would have been roasted alive. Any Programme Managers not reporting on a reasonable basis to their customers, especially on product defects, would also have been roasted. And any Programmes Director that didn't hold those programme reviews would not have lasted very long.

Are MG so unprofessional that they think they owe us anything less?

Most of the vitriol in these threads is caused by people with no responsibility for fixing CoD sniping from the sidelines at those of us that are trying to communicate with Luthier. They are simply swamping every effort we make. He must be laughing all the way to his next joke.

It would be nice if we had a more formal and professional way of submitting our questions to Luthier instead of in this playground.

[bongodriver]

When there is no cooperative play as advertised on the box - broken
When you cant apply FSAA - Broken
No DX11 as advertised - Broken
Dynamic weather- Broken
etc etc....

I have played co-ops......not broken
I have seen anti-aliasing, maybe it's not perfect but.......not broken
No DX11....not many games on the market have gone DX11 yet........not broken
No dynamic weather....'yet'.......not broken (because how can something be broken if it doesn't exist)

BOOOOM!

[furbs]

Then I would say it's a little overdramatic, sounds like a 'bug' to me, and it was made clear that the sound engine was being re-built ground up....or does nobody remember that update? that will take time and will be done when its done, no need for updates on how many toilet breaks Luthier is making.

No bongo, a sim without sound is broken.

getting rid of the trees is a work around.

its broken until its fixed, not before. it doesn't matter if a update is coming that will fix it and make it fantastic, its still broken until we get the fix.

[klem]

I paid money for a game.....not Luthiers life story, couldn't give a toss if Luthier posts an update or a little joke, I have never seen any game developer obligated to 'say' anything, development updates are a priviledge not a right, the argument the game is 'broken' is debateable, there are many who play it well enough with some 'bugs'.....since when was a 'buggy' game a broken one, if that was the case then every piece of software needs to be condemned.

bongodriver you are missing the point.

We are not waiting for one of Oleg's free update patches for IL-2. We are not waiting for some freebee privilege enhancement to something that is already working.

We are waiting for our new broken product to be repaired. It does not do "what it says on the tin".

Any company selling a defective product does have an obligation to keep its customers properly informed.

And by the way, content that is included like dynamic weather is part of the product and should be working, not that Dynamic Weather is particularly important over other things.

[Tree_UK]

Please stop quoting David Hayward, you are defeating my ignore list. But as it has leaked through, we are not asking to be told every ten minutes, we are asking to be told on a reasonably frequent basis, say weekly or fortnightly, when we can expect our faulty goods to be fixed. And more people, new customers for example, will keep asking until they know.

Question: Have MG admitted there are defects in CoD and acknowledged what they are?
Answer: Yes
Question: Are MG Programme managing their way out of this hole?
Answer: No idea
Question: Do MG have Recovery Programme milestones for the key faults that prevent many people actually playing the game they have bought?
Answer: No idea.
Question: Is the Recovery Schedule, if there is one, on target? Is there schedule slip? Can it be explained to the waiting customers?
Answer: No idea.

I used to work in simulation. Any programme Manager that turned up at programme reviews without answers to those questions would have been roasted alive. Any Programme Managers not reporting on a reasonable basis to their customers, especially on product defects, would also have been roasted. And any Programmes Director that didn't hold those programme reviews would not have lasted very long.

Are MG so unprofessional that they think they owe us anything less?

Most of the vitriol in these threads is caused by people with no responsibility for fixing CoD sniping from the sidelines at those of us that are trying to communicate with Luthier. They are simply swamping every effort we make. He must be laughing all the way to his next joke.

It would be nice if we had a more formal and professional way of submitting our questions to Luthier instead of in this playground.

Whilst I agree to most of your post Klem i have to say that some people have gone to great efforts to try and help Luthier, we have a seperate part of the forum where many have posted their findings and problems, to date i dont think Luthier has posted in any of those threads neither as he posted in the bugs thread. Eventually people think why bother, a lot of people have kicked CLOD into the long grass or just given up on the project. Out of ten people that I fly with who have purchased the game only two of us have stuck with it or show an interest. This is partly down to how bad the game is but mostly down to the pathetic communication from the dev's. Unfortunatley Luthier as made many claims regarding this sim and for many people his words carry little weight. Sad but true.

[bongodriver]

No bongo, a sim without sound is broken.

getting rid of the trees is a work around.

its broken until its fixed, not before. it doesn't matter if a update is coming that will fix it and make it fantastic, its still broken until we get the fix.

Again overdramatising........the game does have sound, it has a sound 'bug' that means for some sound dissapears a certain points.

so every game that ever had a 'patch' was broken until that patch was applied?

[furbs]

edit. uncalled for

[robtek]

I would say "broken" means "not usable".

As this sim is "usable", with heavy restrictions, though, but "usable", this kind of reasoning is going down the drain.

And a good devs <-> customer relation is a "nice to have" but in no way mandatory.

Every post from luthier should be taken as a present, trying to pacify the sharks here.

If he wouldn't care, he wouldn't have posted anything in the first place.

Some people have too much spare time, to waste it with negativity and searching for scapegoats for their shattered dreams.

[furbs]

Every flight sim ive ever owned came with 2 things, visuals and sound.

If on the box it said sometimes there is no sound i wouldn't of paid for it.

Would you? @robtek and bongo

[bongodriver]

C'mon furbs and tree, surely you are bigger than just resorting to weak insults?

[Tree_UK]

C'mon furbs and tree, surely you are bigger than just resorting to weak insults?

Yes you are right, i apologise Bongo and have removed the post.

[JG52Krupi]

Again overdramatising........the game does have sound, it has a sound 'bug' that means for some sound dissapears a certain points.

so every game that ever had a 'patch' was broken until that patch was applied?

So you think that its perfectly acceptable to have to turn off trees to get sound to work others are fine with trees and ai voices off, something is clearly broken..

The game is great everyone here can see it potential, but these bugs break the game for a lot of ppl ATM.

[furbs]

yes, of course bongo, sorry but if you keep putting stuff like your last few posts then im at a loss.

How can you defend a sim where online there is no sound. your digging your heels in and wont budge.

[bongodriver]

Every flight sim ive ever owned came with 2 things, visuals and sound.

If on the box it said sometimes there is no sound i wouldn't of paid for it.

Would you? @robtek and bongo

You seriously believe there is 'no' sound, even after countless posts before saying how awfull it is/isn't and videos being made with in game sound?........why are you so black and white?......'t h e r e........i s........s o u n d......i t ......i s........j u s t.......b u g g y'

[bongodriver]

Yes you are right, i apologise Bongo and have removed the post.

Thank you....see.....things are just so much better when we are grown up (everybody)

[furbs]

Bongo, have you played online yet?

[bongodriver]

Bongo, have you played online yet?

yes

[furbs]

Your......right.....there......is......sound...... its.......just......rubbish.....and......100%..... .of.....the.....time.....for.......me......it..... stops..... After....5mins :)


so in my eyes its broken, unless of course i disable trees.

[bongodriver]

Your......right.....there......is......sound...... its.......just......rubbish.....and......100%..... .of.....the.....time.....for.......me......it..... stops..... After....5mins :)


so in my eyes its broken, unless of course i disable trees.

'BINGO'.......in you eyes!

[furbs]

Cool then, i can agree for you its "buggy" can you agree for me its broken?

[bongodriver]

Cool then, i can agree for you its "buggy" can you agree for me its broken?

Yes I can and it is pretty much all I have been saying, I just lend my voice to cancel out some of the blinkered views here, sure for you it 'is' broken, everybody knows it now, nobody else needs to know it, and as for my oppinions, I 'will' keep them to myself when I don't feel compelled to act in this manner, please note you will never find a 'thank you Luthier' post by me......ever, no 'Hi 5' you posted a joke.

[Baron]

Some of you need to grow a sense of humour, and while your at it, grow up a bit to.


After a reaction like this joke of a thread, to what essentially is a "we are happy bunnys here and the work progresses way faster than we thought and sounds great to boot" u people seriously think the devs will come here at your beck and call?

Just because a few of u takes this post from Luthier as a personal insult (seriously, how one can arrive at that conclusion is beyond me) doesn't make it so, PERIOD.

And don't come here blabbing on like u usually do, im not interested in hearing yet another conspiracy theory on why the devs hate YOU.

Now, grow the fe** up for pete sake, its getting childish and plain embarrassing.

[furbs]

Just as i dont mind if people love COD and dont mind the bugs.
If they want, they can post all they want about how much they enjoy playing it, its fine with me. I would never try and tell them they cant or shouldn't.

I just dont like being told what i can or cant post myself(or how often)

[Tree_UK]

Some of you need to grow a sense of humour, and while your at it, grow up a bit to.


After a reaction like this joke of a thread, to what essentially is a "we are happy bunnys here and the work progresses way faster than we thought and sounds great to boot" u people seriously think the devs will come here at your beck and call?

Just because a few of u takes this post from Luthier as a personal insult (seriously, how one can arrive at that conclusion is beyond me) doesn't make it so, PERIOD.

And don't come here blabbing on like u usually do, im not interested in hearing yet another conspiracy theory on why the devs hate YOU.

Now, grow the fe** up for pete sake, its getting childish and plain embarrassing.

Personally I find your little tantrum to be the most childish post here to date, stomping your feet and crying at the other kids, its amusing though i'll give you that. :grin::grin:

[philip.ed]

I think Luthier is also showing how thick skinned they are, and-I would imagine-how much humour they can get out of a posting like this.

They certainly have the power ATM.

[bongodriver]

Just as i dont mind if people love COD and dont mind the bugs.
If they want, they can post all they want about how much they enjoy playing it, its fine with me. I would never try and tell them they cant or shouldn't.

I just dont like being told what i can or cant post myself(or how often)

But in a way that is exactly what you doomsayers do, you post a negative oppinion, someone disagrees, you then post more on how your oppinion 'must' be the fact, then you post some more on how your world has ended because of it, then some others post the same because some sort of 'bandwagon' has started, this starts to get nauseous for many others, so they post against the constant moaning, they then get mobbed by doomsayers and called 'sychophantic fanbois'........etc etc, it's not so much people are 'telling' you not to post, by enlarge you are merely being 'asked' to tone down the misery, but your passions just take hold and you get somewhat 'militant' about it all.

[Sternjaeger II]

Some of you need to grow a sense of humour, and while your at it, grow up a bit to.


After a reaction like this joke of a thread, to what essentially is a "we are happy bunnys here and the work progresses way faster than we thought and sounds great to boot" u people seriously think the devs will come here at your beck and call?

Just because a few of u takes this post from Luthier as a personal insult (seriously, how one can arrive at that conclusion is beyond me) doesn't make it so, PERIOD.

And don't come here blabbing on like u usually do, im not interested in hearing yet another conspiracy theory on why the devs hate YOU.

Now, grow the fe** up for pete sake, its getting childish and plain embarrassing.

I am honestly tired of hearing people saying "grow up!". What gives you the right to say that? If you're happy with being fooled around by Luthier it's your problem, but at least show some respect (unlike him) to people that thinks his post was out of line and totally uncalled for, and not only for the content per se, but above all for the "read between the lines" message, which was pretty much "hey, this is how much I take into consideration the concerns of a good part of the community". Again, if you don't see that, it's your problem, but don't go around telling people that differ from your opinion to grow up, it's really unacceptable.

[Baron]

LoL, some people JUST DONT GET IT.


And no, its not directed at anyone particular. (im careful as not to hurt anyone's feelings these days)

[Volture]

Thank you Luthier about your technical update.

I want to remind or inform all of you, that in September will be on air in beta the World of planes......and the World of Warplanes!!!.....

I think this product (cod) is in great danger...thats the truth!!!


Banzo??....ok banzo!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Baron]

I am honestly tired of hearing people saying "grow up!". What gives you the right to say that? If you're happy with being fooled around by Luthier it's your problem, but at least show some respect (unlike him) to people that thinks his post was out of line and totally uncalled for, and not only for the content per se, but above all for the "read between the lines" message, which was pretty much "hey, this is how much I take into consideration the concerns of a good part of the community". Again, if you don't see that, it's your problem, but don't go around telling people that differ from your opinion to grow up, it's really unacceptable.


"out of line and totally uncalled for", what are u on about?

He is posting an short update and puts music to it, essentially "making fun of them selves" and u think that is out of line and uncalled for?

I mean, why?

"hey, this is how much I take into consideration the concerns of a good part of the community", again, wtf? Where in gods name do u get this stuff from?

Im not trying to insult anyone or tell them what to think, but some of u really need to take a step back and THINK. Or at the very least think about why u get soooo upset about everything posted about CoD.

Its honestly been blown way out of proportion at this stage (not just talking about this "update") and no amount of wording can take that fact away.

[klem]

Whilst I agree to most of your post Klem i have to say that some people have gone to great efforts to try and help Luthier, we have a seperate part of the forum where many have posted their findings and problems, to date i dont think Luthier has posted in any of those threads neither as he posted in the bugs thread. Eventually people think why bother, a lot of people have kicked CLOD into the long grass or just given up on the project. Out of ten people that I fly with who have purchased the game only two of us have stuck with it or show an interest. This is partly down to how bad the game is but mostly down to the pathetic communication from the dev's. Unfortunatley Luthier as made many claims regarding this sim and for many people his words carry little weight. Sad but true.

I know Tree. I have been one of them and I fully support CoD in principle. I was one of the many that said "lay off MG" during the early weeks when they were actively communicating and delivering patches.

My sole argument now is a lack of meaningful information. I know that some people will flame Luthier if they don't like his info but that comes with the territory although I have suggested a locked information post. I would just be glad to have a little light shed on when we can expect the fixes.

We have in excess of 20 people on our Squad Roster, 17 regularly 'active'. We could nearly always put up 10-12 on our squad nights, sometimes more, on-line. Then CoD shattered the Squad. A few can't run CoD at all, only two of us are happy to (I fly COD on non-squad nights) and the rest are disgusted with it. That's almost a 90% rejection rate. We have moved to RoF (not really my choice) until CoD is playable by all of our 'Codders' on-line. I get a lot of good-natured banter and occasionally some pretty harsh criticism for my support of CoD, particularly over Luthier's lack of communication and especially the US release and his little joke. A few of them think I'm mad to bother with it and that's an extension of the problems CoD causes me. These guys are old friends, some of many years, all with WWII combat as our common interest. It's not like I'm some Johnny-no-mates playing off-line, that's of no interest to me, so I have lost WWII on-line air combat with my friends until CoD is fixed. Like the rest of my Squad I can't go back to IL-2, especially Vanilla, as CoD has moved us on but things like the sound bug make it unplayable for too many people.

We know it will get fixed but I'm not prepared for it to be open ended. I wonder what some of the "don't ask" guys on here would say if Luthier said the sound bug, SLi etc weren't going to be fixed until next year. That's not likely to happen but we deserve to be kept informed of their progress.

[klem]

And just one more thing,

You notice how this started off as a bit of humour and how the usual suspects have dragged it back into a personal fight?

One meaningful post from Luthier would stop all this nonsense.

[Meusli]

Thank you Luthier about your technical update.

I want to remind or inform all of you, that in September will be on air in beta the World of planes......and the World of Warplanes!!!.....

I think this product (cod) is in great danger...thats the truth!!!


Banzo??....ok banzo!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it's anything like World of Tanks then he does not have to worry. It's not like World of Tanks is a bad game, just a little basic to make it more gamey fun.

[Baron]

If it's anything like World of Tanks then he does not have to worry. It's not like World of Tanks is a bad game, just a little basic to make it more gamey fun.


Read a thread over at the WoT and apparently its not uncommon for premium account users to have spent 150-200 euros on accounts, gold and what not since they started playing last year.

Personally i have some (kind) of "fun" with the free version but WoT is also riddled with bugs, wich a few, by the looks of it, will never be fixed.

The entire game is set up to get the user to fork out maximum amount of cash and i thank the gods CoD isnt anything remotely like it.

The complaint thread's would reach an unprecedented amount and level if that was the case.

[robtek]

As i've written quite a few posts before, there are only 10, let it be 12 to 14 people here which can't cope with Luthiers post, regardless of the post-counts.

They've given a good performance in a quite predictable style. Even Tree, who started really lightfooted, but soon returned to his old form.

It's getting boring now.

Luthier, a new post, please. :D :D :D

[Baron]

Oh, please, no, the forum will melt if he does. LoL :)

[Ibis]

Luthier left a note,
said he can't take the bullying any more and he's jumped from the office window.
You've done it now Tree.
cyber bullying is a federal offence.

[Krt_Bong]

*(Doubles up with laughter) Bwah,ha, ha,ha, ha,ha, ha!

[David Hayward]

Also you don't sell an unfinished product and then save 5 or 10 minutes each day in a full development team of a dozen guys or way more. Their team has enough productive hours each day - if one of them would take only 10 minutes to inform the community it wouldn't affect their development at all.



There has been communication. It always ends with people complaining that Luthier does not respect them. It's always a disaster.

And they don't need 5-10 minutes to update you on the progress. It only takes 5 seconds.

"When it's done, it's done."

You can even do the progress update yourself.

[JG52Krupi]

There has been communication. It always ends with people complaining that Luthier does not respect them. It's always a disaster.

And they don't need 5-10 minutes to update you on the progress. It only takes 5 seconds.

"When it's done, it's done."

You can even do the progress update yourself.

They say ignorance is bliss, but just because you enjoy not hearing what they are working on does not mean that everyone here does, I don't want much but just another quick roadmap and what ppl are working on currently would be very welcome.

It's not like were asking for an interview with every single member of the dev team ffs just some info.. Either way I'm patiently waiting and playing the game :)

[philip.ed]

There has been communication. It always ends with people complaining that Luthier does not respect them. It's always a disaster.

And they don't need 5-10 minutes to update you on the progress. It only takes 5 seconds.

"When it's done, it's done."

You can even do the progress update yourself.

That's not a development update. That's a social status on how things are going (which, as you suggest, any fool could guess at).
A development update involves progress information, perhaps screenshots, showing tangible progress or development. The update may focus on specific areas of development, with a general inclination as to how much work is still needed; and also how the community may help in suggesting improvements.

The two are completely different, and should not be mixed up. Clearly some aren't bothered my either, others are happy to just hear a word from Luthier (even if it tells us nothing that the last update told us), and then others are annoyed that he could act so smarmy and flippantly about the status of the game. (note: I'm not expressing any personal opinions here).

As some say, 1 minute to say:
-the sound is going well. On Friday we will post a development video showing how it has progressed and later the next week we hope to release a patch to cover_______

takes no time at all, and probably takes less time than the update Luthier posted here (considering he had to open another youtube tab and paste the link etc etc)

Anyway, nothing will change shortly so may the debate continue... :cool:

[David Hayward]

I don't want much but just another quick roadmap and what ppl are working on currently would be very welcome.



Why do you need to know more than "they're working on fixing the game"? Does it really make you feel better if they say "we're working in fixing the game, sound is the #1 priority"? What if sound isn't your #1 priority? What if they say that multi-player is the #1 priority and you want them to fix the sound? Is that update still welcome? Are you beginning to see the problem?

[David Hayward]

A development update involves progress information, perhaps screenshots, showing tangible progress or development. The update may focus on specific areas of development, with a general inclination as to how much work is still needed; and also how the community may help in suggesting improvements.


That sort of thing does not happen on this planet. Don't believe me? Go to the 777/RoF boards and ask for a progress report like that on their next update. Good luck!

[JG52Krupi]

Are you beginning to see the problem?

Yes I can see the problem, the problem is you don't want to know anything, however I want to know but I don't want know what you think you know so let luthier come here and tells us what he knows... :rolleyes:

Yes I see where your coming from and I really really don't care, what priorities they have set is not for me to debate over that's luthiers job... All I want to know is what they are working on its an easy way to keep spirits up and build a good relationship up with fan base that why most companies try to keep ppl informed.

[Sternjaeger II]

That sort of thing does not happen on this planet. Don't believe me? Go to the 777/RoF boards and ask for a progress report like that on their next update. Good luck!

..that's probably because they already give steady reports and the game buglist is pretty much ironed out.

I was thinking about putting you in the ignore list, but I find your comments honestly amusing. U r the customer care wet dream ;)

[David Hayward]

Yes I can see the problem, the problem is you don't want to know anything


Not even close. The problem is that any sort of progress report is just going to upset people (which you can see every time there is a progress report) for reasons both real and imagined.

BTW, it's not that I don't want to know anything, it's that it makes no difference whether I know anything. The update will be ready when it's ready. It will fix whatever it fixes. There is no way I can change any of that, so what real difference does it make if I know the details?

[chiefrr73]

Well done Luthier! You are keeping us busy without an update lol

[David Hayward]

..that's probably because they already give steady reports and the game buglist is pretty much ironed out.


No, they don't. The reports here are far more frequent and detailed than the reports over there.

[furbs]

David, are you in a online sqd?

[JG52Krupi]

Not even close. The problem is that any sort of progress report is just going to upset people (which you can see every time there is a progress report) for reasons both real and imagined.

BTW, it's not that I don't want to know anything, it's that it makes no difference whether I know anything. The update will be ready when it's ready. It will fix whatever it fixes. There is no way I can change any of that, so what real difference does it make if I know the details?

Sigh... read my post again.

I just want to be kept informed.. Not a lot to ask.

[Opitz]

Lol :-p

[David Hayward]

David, are you in a online sqd?

No.

[Sternjaeger II]

Sigh... read my post again.

I just want to be kept informed.. Not a lot to ask.

LOL :mrgreen:

*pats Krupi on the shoulder* c'mon mate, there's no point.

[Sternjaeger II]

No.

No wonder there.. :rolleyes:

[David Hayward]

Sigh... read my post again.

I just want to be kept informed.. Not a lot to ask.

I read it the first time. They are already keeping you informed with all you need to know.

[David Hayward]

No wonder there.. :rolleyes:

What squad do you belong to?

[Baron]

LOL :mrgreen:

*pats Krupi on the shoulder* c'mon mate, there's no point.


Seriously, if you are going to talk like that make sure you don't slap yourself and the "gang" in the head while doing it.

Not seeing an insult as such, but glass, house, brick comes to mind.


No offence intended.

[Sternjaeger II]

What squad do you belong to?

To yours, I'm your wingman.

[Fjordmonkey]

BTW, it's not that I don't want to know anything, it's that it makes no difference whether I know anything. The update will be ready when it's ready. It will fix whatever it fixes. There is no way I can change any of that, so what real difference does it make if I know the details?

While I understand what you're saying and such, I also find myself disagreeing. Yes, I cannot make a difference as to what they're working on, but I'd like to know what to look forward to regardless. If nothing else than to boost my patience-meter and not wipe CLoD off my disks until it's in a more playable state than it currently is.

Can 1C become better in the field of dev-to-Player communication? Of course they can. Yet I find myself understanding why they don't bother, since any and every single post by Luthier finds him under fire for just about any- and everything. If they say they're working on the sounds, people will wail about the flightmodels. If they work on performance-issues, people will wail about the AI. So regardless of what they do, they're damned and will come under fire. Some will say that such is the life of a software-dev, but seriously, can you blame them for not communicating when all they get is a deluge of sewage and manure coming in at mach 4-speeds horizontally?

[Sternjaeger II]

Seriously, if you are going to talk like that make sure you don't slap yourself and the "gang" in the head while doing it.

Not seeing an insult as such, but glass, house, brick comes to mind.


No offence intended.

Thank you Baron, yet another precious feedback from you that I will treasure in my favourite posts for the years to come. Keep up the good work!

[JG52Krupi]

I read it the first time. They are already keeping you informed with all you need to know.

Well I don't know about you but I would rather go through life with some info of what's going on around me and know about the pit holes and scary bugs, but if you like wondering around with a blind fold on thats your prerogative not mine so just go wander straight off a cliff...

[David Hayward]

Yes, I cannot make a difference as to what they're working on, but I'd like to know what to look forward to regardless. If nothing else than to boost my patience-meter and not wipe CLoD off my disks until it's in a more playable state than it currently is.


If you're (not "you" specifically) going to spend your days (for month after month after month) complaining that the devs are not keeping you up to date on their progress (even as they keep posting progress reports), then another progress report really isn't going to change anything. (this isn't directed at you, but that is the general theme of this board)

Would I like to know? Sure. Do I need to know? Not even a little.

[David Hayward]

so just go wander straight off a cliff...

It's a game. There are no cliffs.

[Baron]

Thank you Baron, yet another precious feedback from you that I will treasure in my favourite posts for the years to come. Keep up the good work!



Glad to help even though it will probably be forgotten in an minute or 2.

[furbs]

David, you understand that people want different things?
and that people think differently to you?

The reason i ask is, if you was in a online sqd, i would bet you would have people who you could talk to in person(TS,Vent).
And talking to them instead of posting here you might think differently.

Over the last few days ive been flying and chatting online with Krupi, we used to disagree about a few things on here but after chatting we get along just fine.

Do you have Teamspeak 2?

Edit. that goes to Baron, Frey or anyone else that thinks im a moaning whining malcontent. :)

[JG52Krupi]

It's a game. There are no cliffs.

Really what's the name of the game... We have a smart one here don't we.

[addman]

This thread is so weird. It's so full of nonsense and pointless blabber, yet I can't help myself from reading. Kinda like a day time soap opera, it's cheesy and it sucks but somehow it manages to attract people. Here's a random -almost- Simpsons clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-TZ8Z5S9rI&feature=related

[David Hayward]

David, you understand that people want different things?
and that people think differently to you?



I'm not sure why that matters? We have seen regular updates and they all end up with people complaining.

[furbs]

I know, its just i dont get why you object so much, how does it affect you?

So do you have TS 2? lets talk.

Oh im in =BKHZ= online sqd

[JG52Krupi]

Over the last few days ive been flying and chatting online with Krupi, we used to disagree about a few things on here but after chatting we get along just fine.

Yes it has been useful, talking on ts get around the personal insults that we get on a forum... While we disagree on somethings at the end of the day we are still positive on the future of the game its just a matter of time before it's sorted.

But we have come to agree that we should be kept in the loop regardless of what effect we can have on the patches.

[furbs]

Yep, come on David, im extending my hand in friendship :)

Lets talk.

[David Hayward]

I know, its just i dont get why you object so much, how does it affect you?



The only thing I object to is all the whining in here. It affects me because it makes this board unreadable. No amount of talking is going to change that.

[furbs]

Unreadable? come on now, is that the only reason?

[robtek]

.......But we have come to agree that we should be kept in the loop regardless of what effect we can have on the patches.

That is the point!!!

We all think that we "should be kept in the loop", the problem is this little word : should !!!

But when i look at most of the demanding posts they are read like :

"We must have information"

"We have a right for information"

"We demand information"

Thats very different from "We should have information"

I also would like to be informed more regularily, but i wouldn't think of demanding that.

Lets agree to "we should have more and regular information."

And of course "Peace for the world" :D

[JG52Krupi]

@david

I entirely agree but we should be getting some sort of info, communication is at the heart of all relationships and it the same for this forum.

[David Hayward]

Unreadable? come on now, is that the only reason?

Yes, unreadable. I can't even think of any other reasons why I would care.

[furbs]

So if we had a sub forum for this sort of post, you would be happy? and leave us moaners alone?

[David Hayward]

So if we had a sub forum for this sort of post, you would be happy? and leave us moaners alone?

If it was combined with a 1 month ban for complaining or polls about more info from the devs on the main board, that would be great.

[furbs]

Ahhhh i think thats more the reason David, you just dont like us.

Even more reason to have a proper chat.

[Sternjaeger II]

It's a game. There are no cliffs.

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/192/failhny.jpg

[JG52Krupi]

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/192/failhny.jpg

LMAO, nice...

[David Hayward]

Ahhhh i think thats more the reason David, you just dont like us.


No, it's really just the whining that I don't like. I think the RoF board is GREAT. You can get a lot of useful info there without wading through countless posts complaining about not being respected. Whining is not tolerated.

[furbs]

Then why dont you just put us all on ignore?

[David Hayward]

Then why dont you just put us all on ignore?

I don't use ignore. Ignored posters can still be seen when they are quoted. And it's possible that an ignored poster might say something useful.

[VO101_Tom]

We have seen regular updates and they all end up with people complaining.

When did you read the last development update? Did I miss something?

More than with a month before, on 24th June we got last patch. One week later, on 1th July we meet the team (no update), 20 (!) day later Luthier welcomed the American customers (no update, without a word to the others (older) customers), and after that, yesterday we got luthier last post (you call it dev update?).

But nothing would be a trouble if the product, which was sold to us, would be perfect. But this attitude is – with a mildest word – annoying for the person who got used to a western customer service.

A thought to the end. The VO101 sqn existing since 1999, we have 17 active members currently, who play regularly after IL-2 (A-10, ROF, Arma, WoT, ect). To say potential COD customers.
From the 17 men 5 people who bought the game. Two people was it totally given up, two of them playing 1-2 times per month. And I am playing alone weekly. This not representative statistics i know, but I would not be surprised if similar numbers would be calculated in other old squads (i know the other hungarian saquads, there is the same, or worse).

And this very rough. :(

[David Hayward]

When did you read the last development update? Did I miss something?


It was yesterday.

[JG52Uther]

A thought to the end. The VO101 sqn existing since 1999, we have 17 active members currently, who play regularly after IL-2 (A-10, ROF, Arma, WoT, ect). To say potential COD customers.
From the 17 men 5 people who bought the game. Two people was it totally given up, two of them playing 1-2 times per month. And I am playing alone weekly. This not representative statistics i know, but I would not be surprised if similar numbers would be calculated in other old squads (i know the other hungarian saquads, there is the same, or worse).

And this very rough. :(

I won't mention JG52...
One member playing regularly I think (Krupi).I play it occasionally, but I'm not feelin' the love yet.

[furbs]

It was yesterday.


If you like banjo music.

[David Hayward]

If you like banjo music.

I do.

I also learned that the team is still alive and that the sound fix is progressing.

[philip.ed]

I do.

I also learned that the team is still alive and that the sound fix is progressing.

Which we already knew...

So as I said. It wasn't a development update, it was a social-status-update.

[VO101_Tom]

I do.

I also learned that the team is still alive and that the sound fix is progressing.

With sarcasm or without it, Luthier said couple of months before already, that the Sound and the Fullscreen bugfix takes couple of months. Nothing new on this message, nothing "update". :-|

[David Hayward]

If there was nothing new I guess they are not done yet.

[Kankkis]

Which we already knew...

So as I said. It wasn't a development update, it was a social-status-update.

Yeah, that was a message to us, all is going well and Luthier is happy what they have been done now, cannot wait new sounds and other things what next patch is fixing.

[David Hayward]

There was one other new thing. The level of contempt for this board by the devs has obviously increased. I don't blame them.

[David Hayward]

David, I don't think you even play CoD,you just love an internet argument. ;)
Every other post seems to be yours.
Feel free to reply with another witty one liner...

I bought the game when it was released in the US. It obviously still has lots of problems. I'm looking forward to the next update, but that probably won't fix all the problems. Hopefully no one will die as a result of those problems.

[Sternjaeger II]

There was one other new thing. The level of contempt for this board by the devs has obviously increased. I don't blame them.

yeah, cos you're raising the quality bar.. :rolleyes:

[Robert]

Steve Martin used to have a banjo act in his comedy routine in the 70s.

In it he says it's hard to be unhappy while playing a banjo. It's impossible to be depressed while listening to banjo music. To illustrate he starts a wonderfully plucked melody and begins to sing, "Oh death, and grief and sorrow and murder."

Eh. Maybe you had to hear it, but it was pretty funny back in 77.

Well I don't know any one who could be unhappy listening to all this talent. Even the drummer is pretty cool - even if he doesn't: 'oh, behave.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icMTVV5Lwaw



Why'd I post this? IDK. It's the first thought I had when I read the update yesterday.

[Pudfark]

I bought the game when it was released in the US. It obviously still has lots of problems. I'm looking forward to the next update, but that probably won't fix all the problems. Hopefully no one will die as a result of those problems.

Well that explains alot you bought the game July 19th....you've had it a week...the rest of us have had it and the associated problems for months...

A couple of months from now, the tone of your posts will change...your just that type of chap....;)

[David Hayward]

Well that explains alot you bought the game July 19th....you've had it a week...the rest of us have had it and the associated problems for months...

A couple of months from now, the tone of your posts will change...your just that type of chap....;)

No, they won't. Well, if someone dies as a result of the problems in this game my tone might change. Otherwise, no.

[JG52Uther]

You have had the game a week,yet have been arguing with people who have had the game for 5 months when they post valid complaints about CoD for months?
That marks you as an internet troll David.

[David Hayward]

You have had the game a week,yet have been arguing with people who have had the game for 5 months when they post valid complaints about CoD for months?
That marks you as an internet troll David.

It's no worse than the people who didn't have the game but were still complaining about it (of which there were many). In any case, I've got it now, and I'm still not complaining.

[Sternjaeger II]

You have had the game a week,yet have been arguing with people who have had the game for 5 months when they post valid complaints about CoD for months?
That marks you as an internet troll David.

+1

[Redroach]

Psst, DH is actually luthier in disguise!

[David Hayward]

Psst, DH is actually luthier in disguise!

That's just silly. There would be a ban on whining if I were in charge of this board.

[Feuerfalke]

That's just silly. There would be a ban on whining if I were in charge of this board.

Good thing you aren't.

If the whiners would be gone, the counterwhiners would grow weary of themselves, as they'd actually had to discuss the game and come to the conclusion, they'd need to whine, too. At this point the forum self-desintegrates into a misty cloud of logic.

[JG52Uther]

Thanks Luthier, I await the next update about CoD when you have the time.

[David Hayward]

Good thing you aren't.

If the whiners would be gone, the counterwhiners would grow weary of themselves, as they'd actually had to discuss the game and come to the conclusion, they'd need to whine, too. At this point the forum self-desintegrates into a misty cloud of logic.

It's a risk I'd be willing to take.

In any case, that hasn't happened on the RoF board.

[philip.ed]

It's a risk I'd be willing to take.

In any case, that hasn't happened on the RoF board.

LOL, I don't think you saw the RoF board(s) when the game was first released.
This is all part of the development cycle; we may have been spoilt by weekly updates, but we've also been spoilt by false suggestions from the team. Did we expect too much? No, we didn't. Luthier has said himself that the game was in a poor state on release, but silence from the team leads to a lot of (false) assumptions.
Just grit your teeth and bare with it :-P That's all you can do.
Personally, the whingeing is just a product of the development process. I think it's clear why many are unhappy, and considering that many spent their money on false pretences, it is quite acceptable.

Such authoritarian stances make no sense to me. TBH, it's usually just to cover up the fact that the game is in a terrible state. I think it's nice to see that Luthier can stand it, and yes-he is thick skinned enough to 'soldier' through it, and doesn't need internet fan-bois to hold his hand (this isn't directed at anyone BTW)

[David Hayward]

LOL, I don't think you saw the RoF board(s) when the game was first released.


Apparently they learned their lesson. Whining posts are quickly locked now.

[David Hayward]

TBH, it's usually just to cover up the fact that the game is in a terrible state.

I wouldn't ban bug reports. I'd ban the whining about the lack of hand-holding by the devs. I'd ban the "I told you so" posts. I'd ban the repeated "why didn't you know about this problem" posts. I'd encourage bug reports.

[VO101_Tom]

I'd encourage bug reports.
I am afraid to ask this, but how? :rolleyes: Do we say it with regular development updates? ;-) "Look guys, that you said mistakes on the last week, we corrected these...."

[furbs]

I do.

I also learned that the team is still alive and that the sound fix is progressing.

You worked that out on your own?

[Baron]

Sry guys, i have to leave this thread permanently, the laughter attacks is giving me stomach cramps witch makes it hard for me to do things that are actually important.

See u all next update (oooh, cant wait)

LoL

[David Hayward]

I am afraid to ask this, but how? :rolleyes: Do we say it with regular development updates? ;-) "Look guys, that you said mistakes on the last week, we corrected these...."

Really? You don't know how to report any bugs you find?

[David Hayward]

You worked that out on your own?

Yes. And I have confidence that you could have figured it out, too.

[furbs]

and alot of others in this thread have worked out something for ourselves too, ....David.

[David Hayward]

and alot of others in this thread have worked out something for ourselves too, ....David.

Good!! Hopefully that means a lot less whining about the lack of hand-holding by Luthier.

[Sternjaeger II]

Good!! Hopefully that means a lot less whining about the lack of hand-holding by Luthier.

uhmmm, my wild guess is that we realised you're a troll..

[furbs]

See David your whining is our legitimate complaining at a faulty product that we purchased with our own money.

But lets not start all over again shall we.... :)

[David Hayward]

See David your whining is our legitimate complaining at a faulty product that we purchased with our own money.

But lets not start all over again shall we.... :)

My mistake. Carry on...

I just can't help but notice that your months of "legitimate complaining at a faulty product that we purchased with our own money" seems to have resulted in a dev team that is now mocking you.

[Sternjaeger II]

My mistake. Carry on...

I just can't help but notice that your months of "legitimate complaining at a faulty product that we purchased with our own money" seems to have resulted in a dev team that is now mocking you.

that's a very questionable assumption. You're quite good at assumptions.

[David Hayward]

that's a very questionable assumption. You're quite good at assumptions.

You should check out the first post in this thread. He's definitely mocking you.

[David Hayward]

And you David,and you...
;)

Probably. The difference is that I don't care. Many of you obviously care a great deal.

[Blackdog_kt]

Ok, this is going around in circles obviously, so let me take one quote that struck me in particular to illustrate how the "middle of the road" people view you guys. The quote is by Furbs, but it could just as easily have been a post by Tree or David. Ready? Let's go then :grin:


yes, of course bongo, sorry but if you keep putting stuff like your last few posts then im at a loss.

How can you defend a sim where online there is no sound. your digging your heels in and wont budge.

It's his opinion. That's the annoying thing with you people, and by "you" i mean both "fanboys" and "whiners" alike: you all think you are the holders of the holy grail of universal truth, you speak about your right to have your say and completely disrespect the rights of others to do the same.

When you drag every single thread down to the dumps with the usual routine of "whiner sniping comment" followed by "snappy fanboy comeback", to the point that we can't really talk about what we initially set out to talk about because it's all dragged off topic, to the point where threads with useful information degenerate to personal insults and get locked, then you're not exercising your rights to freedom of speech, you're just depriving others of theirs.

If you get banned for doing so it's not curtailing your freedom of speech, it's protecting the freedom of speech of the rest who you so easily disregard and disrespect. We don't need your slagging matches in every single thread, create your own thread and have a blast but don't annoy everyone else with a total lack of respect for their intentions and interests in starting or participating in a thread. You're like the annoying guy in the pub that barges in, sits at a table with people he doesn't know, interrupts their conversation and forces them to listen to a bunch of things they don't care about and when he's told to shut up he goes all "oh my freedom of speech" :rolleyes:

Well, i have news for those of you that fit the description. It's not us that are intolerant and stifling the opinions of others, it's you and we've officially had enough of your shenanigans.

People will disagree with you and often won't be interested to get convinced, it's the essence of having the freedom to discuss things in venues like an open forum such as this. If people can't get over this they should find a different pass-time that doesn't strain them so much and stop projecting that strain onto everyone else along with their obsessive need to convert everyone else to their beliefs. Have your say, judge the reception and if it's poor keep it to yourself, you're not more important than the rest.

Don't take this personally, you guys have become boring through repetition and as a result you are at a point where you're getting viewed by many as bringing nothing useful to the table, that's why you're getting called out on it by an increasing amount of people as the days go by. They got bored of the "this is broken", "no it's not" repetition, they would prefer a "this is broken, but i have this workaround for you" followed by a report on how it works out, or "there's no stock dynamic campaign but here, i made one for you" followed by some user feedback, like the people who have something useful to offer do in the subforums.

In other words, your strategy is simply getting obsolete by gradually infuriating the civil majority of the community to the point that they'll gladly stop being civil and go out to openly contest your reign of boredom on the forums.

If your aim is to make everyone post with the kind of attitude you guys display then congrats because it's gradually working. I don't know if you'll like it in the end though, because the majority are a quiet bunch who are just waiting to see where this is going and doing their best to have some fun in the meantime.

If they start speaking up against you with the frequency and aggressive proselytizing attitude you guys display, you stand a good change of being effectively hunted out of this forum by the silent majority of the community alone and there won't be no need at all for Luthier or the mods to show you the way out. You'll just be getting swamped by every fed up user every time you speak until you're fed up yourself and quit it, or leave the forums. The ball is in your court guys, your choice.



Mods, can we have a single "rants, speculation, arguments and off-topic megathread" sticky and move all such posts there? Let them have their playground, just make sure they get dragged there at every offending step so we won't have to put up with this anymore?

They are curtailing our freedom of speech by dragging every single discussion their way and if they have a right to moan about things that annoy them, so do the rest of us for being annoyed by them. I demand equal treatment for the part of the community who's fed up with their antics.

You see, it's so easy to play this game guys, get on my soapbox and assume i'm speaking on behalf of others. The difference is i have a multitude of posts spent on helping increase the enjoyment factor with the sim for other people, while most of you have a stream of bickering one-liners among yourselves, so i might have a bit more luck drumming up support for my cause than you do.

The one and only time i actively campaigned for something on these forums, it was improved CEM/aircraft systems and optional clickable cockpits during the sim's development, which we got, and that was convincing the dev team on something which had a real cost in man-hours and money to implement.

I have a feeling it won't be that hard to swing moderation around a bit so you can't dominate every single unrelated post to further your personal agendas, since it costs nothing to just have a sticky thread to move all offending posts to. Heck, if the mods are too busy i'll gladly take on the job for a while.

[David Hayward]

It's his opinion. That's the annoying thing with you people, and by "you" i mean both "fanboys" and "whiners" alike: you all think you are the holders of the holy grail of universal truth, you speak about your right to have your say and completely disrespect the rights of others to do the same.


That doesn't apply to me. I think the devs are the holders of the holy grail of truth. If they want to fix it, it will be fixed. If they don't, you need to accept that it's a "feature" and not a bug.

[JG52Uther]

I deleted a lot of my threads today.I got dragged into a tit for tat exchange with an expert troll to my shame.After 10 years with il2 on various forums I really should know better.
I think a lot of others are falling for the same troll.It does the forum no favours.Ignore is the best way forward.
Must.Try.Harder.

[Redroach]

oh come on, don't spoil it! :rolleyes:

[Sternjaeger II]

I deleted a lot of my threads today.I got dragged into a tit for tat exchange with an expert troll to my shame.After 10 years with il2 on various forums I really should know better.
I think a lot of others are falling for the same troll.It does the forum no favours.Ignore is the best way forward.
Must.Try.Harder.

indeed, my bad as well.

[furbs]

I didn't read all your post Blackdog, but your prob spot on with what ever you said. :)

David Hayward, you said you didn't like to put people on ignore in case they have something interesting to say.
Im now sure you wont. Goodbye. Ignored.

[MD_Titus]

Ok, this is going around in circles obviously, so let me take one quote that struck me in particular to illustrate how the "middle of the road" people view you guys. The quote is by Furbs, but it could just as easily have been a post by Tree or David. Ready? Let's go then :grin:




It's his opinion. That's the annoying thing with you people, and by "you" i mean both "fanboys" and "whiners" alike: you all think you are the holders of the holy grail of universal truth, you speak about your right to have your say and completely disrespect the rights of others to do the same.

When you drag every single thread down to the dumps with the usual routine of "whiner sniping comment" followed by "snappy fanboy comeback", to the point that we can't really talk about what we initially set out to talk about because it's all dragged off topic, to the point where threads with useful information degenerate to personal insults and get locked, then you're not exercising your rights to freedom of speech, you're just depriving others of theirs.

If you get banned for doing so it's not curtailing your freedom of speech, it's protecting the freedom of speech of the rest who you so easily disregard and disrespect. We don't need your slagging matches in every single thread, create your own thread and have a blast but don't annoy everyone else with a total lack of respect for their intentions and interests in starting or participating in a thread. You're like the annoying guy in the pub that barges in, sits at a table with people he doesn't know, interrupts their conversation and forces them to listen to a bunch of things they don't care about and when he's told to shut up he goes all "oh my freedom of speech" :rolleyes:

Well, i have news for those of you that fit the description. It's not us that are intolerant and stifling the opinions of others, it's you and we've officially had enough of your shenanigans.

People will disagree with you and often won't be interested to get convinced, it's the essence of having the freedom to discuss things in venues like an open forum such as this. If people can't get over this they should find a different pass-time that doesn't strain them so much and stop projecting that strain onto everyone else along with their obsessive need to convert everyone else to their beliefs. Have your say, judge the reception and if it's poor keep it to yourself, you're not more important than the rest.

Don't take this personally, you guys have become boring through repetition and as a result you are at a point where you're getting viewed by many as bringing nothing useful to the table, that's why you're getting called out on it by an increasing amount of people as the days go by. They got bored of the "this is broken", "no it's not" repetition, they would prefer a "this is broken, but i have this workaround for you" followed by a report on how it works out, or "there's no stock dynamic campaign but here, i made one for you" followed by some user feedback, like the people who have something useful to offer do in the subforums.

In other words, your strategy is simply getting obsolete by gradually infuriating the civil majority of the community to the point that they'll gladly stop being civil and go out to openly contest your reign of boredom on the forums.

If your aim is to make everyone post with the kind of attitude you guys display then congrats because it's gradually working. I don't know if you'll like it in the end though, because the majority are a quiet bunch who are just waiting to see where this is going and doing their best to have some fun in the meantime.

If they start speaking up against you with the frequency and aggressive proselytizing attitude you guys display, you stand a good change of being effectively hunted out of this forum by the silent majority of the community alone and there won't be no need at all for Luthier or the mods to show you the way out. You'll just be getting swamped by every fed up user every time you speak until you're fed up yourself and quit it, or leave the forums. The ball is in your court guys, your choice.



Mods, can we have a single "rants, speculation, arguments and off-topic megathread" sticky and move all such posts there? Let them have their playground, just make sure they get dragged there at every offending step so we won't have to put up with this anymore?

They are curtailing our freedom of speech by dragging every single discussion their way and if they have a right to moan about things that annoy them, so do the rest of us for being annoyed by them. I demand equal treatment for the part of the community who's fed up with their antics.

You see, it's so easy to play this game guys, get on my soapbox and assume i'm speaking on behalf of others. The difference is i have a multitude of posts spent on helping increase the enjoyment factor with the sim for other people, while most of you have a stream of bickering one-liners among yourselves, so i might have a bit more luck drumming up support for my cause than you do.

The one and only time i actively campaigned for something on these forums, it was improved CEM/aircraft systems and optional clickable cockpits during the sim's development, which we got, and that was convincing the dev team on something which had a real cost in man-hours and money to implement.

I have a feeling it won't be that hard to swing moderation around a bit so you can't dominate every single unrelated post to further your personal agendas, since it costs nothing to just have a sticky thread to move all offending posts to. Heck, if the mods are too busy i'll gladly take on the job for a while.

oh, we have a candidate for post of the year!
give the man the job

[Hunden]

Play Dark Blue World for now and all your fustration with this one won't seem so important.

[dflion]

I'm glad to hear that you are all alive and the sound is progressing well - liked the kid 'bluegrass band'. You have certainly got a very good sample of the general mood with all the previous posts?

I'm 'chipping away' at the FMB and discovering something new everyday. When you immerse yourself deeply in the FMB, you really realise that a hell of a lot of work has gone into the sim already and it is set-up for future development. The only thing I don't like is the 'Steam invasion on your computer'.

It would be good to get a 'sound development update' vid?

DFLion

[robtek]

A new low for the "bash the devs"-crew.

A steadfast opposition to their "crusade for imaginary rights" must be a troll, LOL

As long as there are people there will always be some with a different opinion.

Your inability to cope with that, by using "ignore-lists" and your invulnerability to reason speaks volumes about you.

At least some of you still find the time to actually enjoy the sim online, as i've seen on the syndicate - server.

[furbs]

Ive had 150 hours of COD Robtek, plenty of them online, i want COD to do well, im trying to enjoy it now.

[robtek]

Furbs,

most of us are doing that, enjoying, ok, in some cases trying to enjoy, the sim.

Just remember, this sim is projected to stay with us for many years, what does a puny little delay of a few weeks for information and/or "The Patch" mean in the relation to that?

[furbs]

Yes, but what worries me is this Robtek, every stage so far of COD has been shambolic, and i mean every stage, every milestone from the announcement in 2003 i think right through to the latest "update" from Luthier.

That does not give me hope for what ever they are trying to do. there is a base problem with COD, and its not going away any time soon.

They have had my support and my money, they have had almost 5 months since release, at what point should we start seeing the devs pull their fingers out and getting things right? 6 months, a year?

how long is too long Robtek?

[Skoshi Tiger]

Yes, but what worries me is this Robtek, every stage so far of COD has been shambolic, and i mean every stage, every milestone from the announcement in 2003 i think right through to the latest "update" from Luthier.

That does not give me hope for what ever they are trying to do. there is a base problem with COD, and its not going away any time soon.

They have had my support and my money, they have had almost 5 months since release, at what point should we start seeing the devs pull their fingers out and getting things right? 6 months, a year?

how long is too long Robtek?

Sorry for butting in as the question was directed to Robotek but, how long is too late for whom?

For many who have been expressing their dissatisfaction I would probably say it's already too late. It obvious from some of the comments that there is nothing that the developers could do to appease some people and that they're just here to stir the pot.

For the developers it will be to late as soon as a competitor releases an alternative that is better, has more features and is more stable. As a community we are quite a fickle bunch and It's in the developers best interest to get the problems sorted out as quickly as possible. They have a short window of opportunity. I would assume that Alienating enthusiast like your-self who have shown a long term commitment to the original series and community is not their intentions

So far I haven't seen any evidence that the developers haven't been 'pulling their fingers out' (I'ld assume they'd be working as hard as they could be), but 'getting it right' may be a bit harder to achieve. Quick fixes may not be the best course of action in the long run. 'Hopefully' they are doing it right and hopefully it doesn't take too long.


Cheers!

[robtek]

1+ Skoshi Tiger,

you said it as i've would if i had your way with words :D :D :D

[Sternjaeger II]

man, there's no point. If anything I have learned yet another lesson about human nature: even when you think there can't be any other possible side to a discussion, here comes one.

Some of you are turning it into a matter of who's right and who's wrong, the sad reality is that we're all on the same side, we just have different patience thresholds.

The truth is that objectively, no private business can behave like this and think to get away with it, and Maddox Games is no different. Yes, there's not much we can do, but the truth is that this kind of behaviour will only make things bitter until they prove that our concerns are unmotivated.

[Sternjaeger II]

Sorry for butting in as the question was directed to Robotek but, how long is too late for whom?

For many who have been expressing their dissatisfaction I would probably say it's already too late. It obvious from some of the comments that there is nothing that the developers could do to appease some people and that they're just here to stir the pot.


meh, these kind of people left the forum long ago, I think we're left with the hard core of fans here.


For the developers it will be to late as soon as a competitor releases an alternative that is better, has more features and is more stable. As a community we are quite a fickle bunch and It's in the developers best interest to get the problems sorted out as quickly as possible. They have a short window of opportunity. I would assume that Alienating enthusiast like your-self who have shown a long term commitment to the original series and community is not their intentions


Hardly. Can't think of any valid alternative being developed, Maddox knows this well and that's why they're behaving like this, which is even more despicable. But yes, if it happens they can kiss their moderate success goodbye.


So far I haven't seen any evidence that the developers haven't been 'pulling their fingers out' (I'ld assume they'd be working as hard as they could be), but 'getting it right' may be a bit harder to achieve. Quick fixes may not be the best course of action in the long run. 'Hopefully' they are doing it right and hopefully it doesn't take too long.

Cheers!

again, this is a misinterpretation of what most of us are asking: we don't need updates on petty things, just updates made in an intelligent manner from a very intelligent person who shows respect and facts to other intelligent people.

[robtek]

They presented facts!

some people took offense by the presentation.

It seems as if there wasn't more to tell, atm.

To evaluate the intelligence of the poster of the presentation by it is very daring, as some replyers took this post as witty, funny even hilarious.

Regarding to the post before your last:

So just give them some time to prove it, i'd say.

[furbs]

Sorry for butting in as the question was directed to Robotek but, how long is too late for whom?

For many who have been expressing their dissatisfaction I would probably say it's already too late. It obvious from some of the comments that there is nothing that the developers could do to appease some people and that they're just here to stir the pot.

For the developers it will be to late as soon as a competitor releases an alternative that is better, has more features and is more stable. As a community we are quite a fickle bunch and It's in the developers best interest to get the problems sorted out as quickly as possible. They have a short window of opportunity. I would assume that Alienating enthusiast like your-self who have shown a long term commitment to the original series and community is not their intentions

So far I haven't seen any evidence that the developers haven't been 'pulling their fingers out' (I'ld assume they'd be working as hard as they could be), but 'getting it right' may be a bit harder to achieve. Quick fixes may not be the best course of action in the long run. 'Hopefully' they are doing it right and hopefully it doesn't take too long.


Cheers!

Your prob right Tiger, i dont think the "team" haven't been working as hard as they can, i should edit my post.

I guess i mean the lead and direction of the team and development has been shambolic "in my eyes".

To me, some of the development decisions have been almost deliberately made to hinder COD.

Thats where im coming from, i hope you understand me better now.

[Lant]

I find it hysterical the way many make out they have taken out a mortgage to buy this game or that buying CloD was the largest investment that have made in their lives... comical. I can't step outside my front door without spending £30.

Get over it, the game was released early, in a beta state, patches are coming that with luck will rectify it... but you just need to get over the fact that you wasted 6 years beating yourselves off over weekly updates and be patient. Some pills are tough to swallow. ;-)

I bought Duke Nukem.. played it for 5 minutes.. laughed at myself for being so dumb. That was it.. i'm not spamming their forums with tosh.

So youre cool with buying full-prize stuff that doesnt work because "sometime" it might get fixed?

[Sternjaeger II]

They presented facts!

some people took offense by the presentation.

It seems as if there wasn't more to tell, atm.

To evaluate the intelligence of the poster of the presentation by it is very daring, as some replyers took this post as witty, funny even hilarious.

Regarding to the post before your last:

So just give them some time to prove it, i'd say.

I've just read a brilliant quote from a forum member in another thread, by a certain Albert Einstein, who said "You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother".

Here's how I would explain it to my grandma: "Grandma, the whole Luthier last post thing is like making a joke in a place where it's totally uncalled for, like, I dunno, a joke on concentration camps during a Jewish funeral?" :rolleyes:

[Bewolf]

I've just read a brilliant quote from a forum member in another thread, by a certain Albert Einstein, who said "You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother".

Here's how I would explain it to my grandma: "Grandma, the whole Luthier last post thing is like making a joke in a place where it's totally uncalled for, like, I dunno, a joke on concentration camps during a Jewish funeral?" :rolleyes:

You really need a life, comparing a development update with a holocaust joke is a good indicator for "girlfriend urgently required".

The question is simply one of personality, being the "glass is half full or glass is half empty" type of person. Did you follow IL2? Then you know it's going to be fixed. The way updates in a forum are handled are as important to this process as a dancing mechanic is to fixing a car. It's nice, it's a bonus, ppl feel better but when it comes to fixing the product, it's totally redundant.
Lot's of prima donnas here, though, prefering style over substance.

[Sternjaeger II]

You really need a life, comparing a development update with a holocaust joke is a good indicator for "girlfriend urgently required".



Aaaargh! *facepalm* Beowolf, it was an example of an out of place joke, don't take it literally. Got a girlfriend btw, don't see the relation with needing a life, a girlfriend and the explanation of a joke out of place situation.

[klem]

Ok, this is going around in circles obviously, so let me take one quote that struck me in particular to illustrate how the "middle of the road" people view you guys. The quote is by Furbs, but it could just as easily have been a post by Tree or David. Ready? Let's go then :grin:............................

Blackdog, I can't really disagree with much you say but I do believe we have a right to be told progress on the repair of our faulty goods. Its that simple and stands up in any other commercial/retail case. That is in fact a 'middle of the road' approach, I am not demanding my money back because I want to stay with them, I am not threatening to sue them or refer them/UBI to a Trading Standards body, I just want to know what I can expect by way of meaningful information.

I have suggested that Luthier give us meaningful status reports on the progress of the key faults in a locked thread and if people want to scream at each other they can raise their own thread. I won't be in there because I am really only interested in what Luthier has to say.

The reason some of us post and post again is in the hope that our posts will catch Luthier's eye among the other debris in here. We do not have any other way of getting his attention. What really worries me is that he must have heard our simple case but he still doesn't give his paid-up customers a simple status report on key defects in their product. I don't call that viewpoint 'disrespecting Luthier' but I think MG have fallen into the trap of disrespecting their customers. They are in default.

I think the majority of people in these threads are behind MG and CoD or they just wouldn't be here. Some are happy to wait indefinitely for a patch, some of us are not. That doesn't give the former the right to speak on MGs behalf and it doesn't make the latter expectation wrong but you are right that we keep getting dragged into old arguments that actually do not need to exist and would not if MG would simply keep us properly informed.

[Bewolf]

Aaaargh! *facepalm* Beowolf, it was an example of an out of place joke, don't take it literally. Got a girlfriend btw, don't see the relation with needing a life, a girlfriend and the explanation of a joke out of place situation.

Great, if you expect other people to know what you mean, then you wont't have any problems to understand how other people mean it as well.

"Out of place" jokes, btw, are a very subjective matter. For me this update was great fun and carried more of a message in it then others obviously were able to recognize. And it certainly has much more character in it then a clinical update with points to be fixed and release dates included.

I suppose how you take it is a matter of character. Being the "glass is half full or half empty" kind of person. Do not expect to be able to push the "glass is half empty" attitude onto others just so.

[philip.ed]

That doesn't apply to me. I think the devs are the holders of the holy grail of truth. If they want to fix it, it will be fixed. If they don't, you need to accept that it's a "feature" and not a bug.

A feature?! Seriously, you view obvious defects as features? So i'm assuming that if a patient has cancer or another type of disease or injury that you view this as a feature? The analogy may be extreme, but it's largely in-fitting.

It's posts like these which cause heated discussions, because they lack so much logic it's almost incomprehensible. If a feature of the game (let's call it a feature-feature for your sake) was working, but then was broken in a following patch, is that then a broken feature, or just a feature? Clearly the former, and clearly also a bug.
Not everything can be fixed; most types of cancer are an example, however there is a timeframe in which the issue can be alleviated and brought back up to standard. This is possible in CloD, but if every customer was able to hide a broken mess of a game (for example) behind a facade of quirky features, then the devs would have no reason to improve the game. You really are every bored-developers wet dream, aren't you?!

[bongodriver]

Aww.....bugger it, why don't we all arrange a date for the future where we all meet up in a bar, get trashed and have a massive punch up.....see who wins and that will settle it :grin:

[Fjordmonkey]

So youre cool with buying full-prize stuff that doesnt work because "sometime" it might get fixed?

He didn't say he was cool with it. He said that he isn't going to rail, wail, whine and moan on a board just because the game was pure and utter crap.

When it comes to software-products, there's always the risk of what looks like a fine glass of wine will be colored pisswater. When that happens, you also need to remember that most if not all software-products come with a very extensive EULA/ToS, which also very often clearly states that the product is sold "as is", and that it's your responsibility if you find it lacking. They also state that you can return the game to where you bought it, and if you choose to do that, it's a case between you and the seller, not between you and the producer.

Caveat Emptor is in effect for any and all pieces of software you buy.

[Sternjaeger II]

Great, if you expect other people to know what you mean, then you wont't have any problems to understand how other people mean it as well.

"Out of place" jokes, btw, are a very subjective matter. For me this update was great fun and carried more of a message in it then others obviously were able to recognize. And it certainly has much more character in it then a clinical update with points to be fixed and release dates included.

I suppose how you take it is a matter of character. Being the "glass is half full or half empty" kind of person. Do not expect to be able to push the "glass is half empty" attitude onto others just so.

the point is that what Luthier has posted here was no update, but yet another stunt to stir the arguments and gain time.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, because I believe that everyone is free to express their opinion, but I'm not standing for people being disrespectful of my opinion, showing an arrogance that is in line with the devs at the moment.

..still didn't get what you were talking about re. needing a girlfriend and getting a life though..

[Sternjaeger II]

Aww.....bugger it, why don't we all arrange a date for the future where we all meet up in a bar, get trashed and have a massive punch up.....see who wins and that will settle it :grin:

At 6'2" and 20 stones, you're pushing your luck mate lol

but yeah, wish that a large group of us could catch up somewhere :)

[bongodriver]

At 6'2" and 20 stones, you're pushing your luck mate lol

but yeah, wish that a large group of us could catch up somewhere :)

I beat you by an inch and loose by 5 stone, but I can drink vodka like a russian sailor.

[robtek]

Philip.ed

if you are able to look back in the threads for a few months, you would see that there were quite a few "Bug" - reports that called out unrecognized features!

[JG52Uther]

I've met many people in the il2 community over the years,from many different countries. Oleg Maddox and Ilya Shevchenko (Luthier), quite a few JG52, Danger dogz, various EAF members.
Never felt the need for a punch up when meeting them face to face ;)

Forums bring out the worst in people, and trolls,who would never dream of meeting you in real life, or even speaking to you on comms, have a perfect arena to play in.
Personally I'm going to stop asking and start waiting.If it works out,great. If it doesn't I shall just drift away.

[Bewolf]

the point is that what Luthier has posted here was no update, but yet another stunt to stir the arguments and gain time.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, because I believe that everyone is free to express their opinion, but I'm not standing for people being disrespectful of my opinion, showing an arrogance that is in line with the devs at the moment.

..still didn't get what you were talking about re. needing a girlfriend and getting a life though..

I simply go by Einstein "Stupidity is doing the same thing again and again and still expecting a different result". If you consider that arrogance, so be it.

And if you want to have a more elaborate explaination in regards to getting a life, then consider spending valuable life time on spamming a forum for nothing but a development update and your subjective understanding of what such an update should include.

[Sternjaeger II]

Philip.ed

if you are able to look back in the threads for a few months, you would see that there were quite a few "Bug" - reports that called out unrecognized features!

that happens cos they fail to communicate the complete features list, think about how much time it would save to copy/paste a complete feature list to a post like "what the heck! There's stuff sticking out of my Bf109 wing!".

[robtek]

the point is that what Luthier has posted here was no update, but yet another stunt to stir the arguments and gain time.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, because I believe that everyone is free to express their opinion, but I'm not standing for people being disrespectful of my opinion, showing an arrogance that is in line with the devs at the moment.

..still didn't get what you were talking about re. needing a girlfriend and getting a life though..

I think your arrogance lies in the assumption that your interpretation of Luthiers post is the only true one.

It isn't, it works only for you in private, not in the public!

[Sternjaeger II]

I beat you by an inch and loose by 5 stone, but I can drink vodka like a russian sailor.

bloody norah! How do you fit in a Tiggie?! ;-)

[Fjordmonkey]

Personally I'm going to stop asking and start waiting.If it works out,great. If it doesn't I shall just drift away.

Wise words, and a wise attitude when it comes to things like these :)

[bongodriver]

bloody norah! How do you fit in a Tiggie?! ;-)

it's a squeeze...thats why I like the stearman better.

[Sternjaeger II]

I simply go by Einstein "Stupidity is doing the same thing again and again and still expecting a different result". If you consider that arrogance, so be it.

And if you want to have a more elaborate explaination in regards to getting a life, then consider spending valuable life time on spamming a forum for nothing but a development update and your subjective understanding of what such an update should include.

I am just defending what I believe in and answering people who have questions and opinions different than mine, in a polite and respectful manner, without offending them, unlike you.

How's that for arrogance?

[Sternjaeger II]

I think your arrogance lies in the assumption that your interpretation of Luthiers post is the only true one.

It isn't, it works only for you in private, not in the public!

I keep on repeating is my opinion, which is driven by common sense, and again, apparently the idea of having regular and effective updates is the will of the majority here, you are the minority.

[Sternjaeger II]

it's a squeeze...thats why I like the stearman better.

Yeah, Stearman over Tiggie every day of the week, but my heart is sold to the Jungmann.

[Bewolf]

I am just defending what I believe in and answering people who have questions and opinions different than mine, in a polite and respectful manner, without offending them, unlike you.

How's that for arrogance, Sherlock? :rolleyes:

My apologies if you felt offended. I just took the same route as you did with "over the top" comparisons. I thought you knew what I ment. Sorry if you took it too seriously.

But consider this. You blamed the devs of buying time to fix this game. Going this route, you should be perfectly happy they released the game in the first place loooong before it was ready for that.

Or let's put it in a different way. How, do you think are regular development updatesgoing to fix this game any faster?

I will repeat that I personally would prefer regular updates myself. I, too, think that spending ten minutes to write down a forum post is not too much an effort and would please lots of folks that simply want to have a bit more clarity after waiting years for the IL2 follow up. However, I won't lose a night's sleep if this is not going to happen and one day we get a huge update bringing this game to a playable state at once (and even that is relative, as I have already logged 150 hours with CoD).

Let's bring it down to the core of the question. Do you think Maddox Games is working on fixing the game, or aren't they?

[bongodriver]

Yeah, Stearman over Tiggie every day of the week, but my heart is sold to the Jungmann.

yeah i'd give my left bollock to fly one, beautiful machine, next time I bump into Anna Walker I might charm her into letting me climb in hers and take her to heaven and back......maybe fly her Jungmann too........sorry but even for a lady of maturity she jingles my bells :grin:

[robtek]

I keep on repeating is my opinion, which is driven by common sense, and again, apparently the idea of having regular and effective updates is the will of the majority here, you are the minority.

Yes, you are repeating your opinion, driven by YOUR interpretation of common sense.

My interpretation of common sense obviously differs from yours.

The kind of black and white thinking that you show here is part of the problem, otherwise you couldn't have come to the conclusion that i wouldn't like a regular and effective update.

I am over the "I want" - state, as it to often collides with reality.

And i definitely don't need another progress report, as we got one with Luthiers post.

[JG52Uther]

yeah i'd give my left bollock to fly one, beautiful machine, next time I bump into Anna Walker I might charm her into letting me climb in hers and take her to heaven and back......maybe fly her Jungmann too........sorry but even for a lady of maturity she jingles my bells :grin:

Only met Anna once, through a mate who works for Classic Wings at Duxford.
Thats one lucky lady, with a great job!

[Sternjaeger II]

My apologies if you felt offended. I just took the same route as you did with "over the top" comparisons. I thought you knew what I ment. Sorry if you took it too seriously.

It's ok.


But consider this. You blamed the devs of buying time to fix this game. Going this route, you should be perfectly happy they released the game in the first place loooong before it was ready for that.
Of course I am happy, but this is not the point. They were late on their delivery with Ubisoft, remember what Oleg said? The cause for this can be anything: poor managing, little resources, stuff that needed to be redone from scracth.. I dunno, not my problem, and again, I'm happy they delivered the game as it is, but for the love of honesty and respect, tell the community that the money they're spending is a long term investment on a yet to be completed alpha. Il-2 was nowhere near this bad when it originally came out, and the bad reviews they received with CoD have done them no good.


Or let's put it in a different way. How, do you think are regular development updatesgoing to fix this game any faster?

It won't, but that's not my interest. Regular updates are useful to the community to know on which feedback aspects they can help and to show the newcomers that the game is far from dead, there's a lot of work going on and a very professional one. When you want to go pro, you need to behave like a pro.


I will repeat that I personally would prefer regular updates myself. I, too, think that spending ten minutes to write down a forum post is not too much an effort and would please lots of folks that simply want to have a bit more clarity after waiting years for the IL2 follow up. However, I won't lose a night's sleep if this is not going to happen and one day we get a huge update bringing this game to a playable state at once (and even that is relative, as I have already logged 150 hours with CoD).

Let's bring it down to the core of the question. Do you think Maddox Games is working on fixing the game, or aren't they?

Oh no, of course they are, but they're leaving it all to an oblivious state of "it's fixed when it's fixed" which, again for the laws of Public Relations, marketing and common sense, it's not a good idea, especially when you sell for good an unfinished product.

Do you understand my point better now?

[Sternjaeger II]

yeah i'd give my left bollock to fly one, beautiful machine, next time I bump into Anna Walker I might charm her into letting me climb in hers and take her to heaven and back......maybe fly her Jungmann too........sorry but even for a lady of maturity she jingles my bells :grin:

lol perv! ;-)

truth is that you don't really know what jingles your bells more: the Bucker or the Babe ;-)

[Sternjaeger II]

Yes, you are repeating your opinion, driven by YOUR interpretation of common sense.

My interpretation of common sense obviously differs from yours.


you can't interpret common sense, either you have it or you don't, here, for further reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense


The kind of black and white thinking that you show here is part of the problem, otherwise you couldn't have come to the conclusion that i wouldn't like a regular and effective update.
you don't, cos if you do you're contradicting yourself.


I am over the "I want" - state, as it to often collides with reality.

And i definitely don't need another progress report, as we got one with Luthiers post.

good for you, Robtek, good for you. Met many trolls in my life, but you are by far one of the most fascinating ones.

[robtek]

To call someone a troll for expressing his opinion in a civil manner does fall back on you.

And no, i didn't contradict myself, as you were so kind to point out, there is a difference between "i'd like", "i want" and "i need", easy to overlook when generalizing.

[6S.Manu]

Of course I am happy, but this is not the point. They were late on their delivery with Ubisoft, remember what Oleg said? The cause for this can be anything: poor managing, little resources, stuff that needed to be redone from scracth.. I dunno, not my problem, and again, I'm happy they delivered the game as it is, but for the love of honesty and respect, tell the community that the money they're spending is a long term investment on a yet to be completed alpha. Il-2 was nowhere near this bad when it originally came out, and the bad reviews they received with CoD have done them no good.

My same opinion.
I don't care about the money I've spent: I would pay again to support guys who are developing a product for a small market like flight sims are.
But if I'm investing in you then I would like to see what are you doing and I want to know the real state of the application.

At start I blamed the anti epilessy filter because it was ruining the game... was that the real problem of CloD?

If it was a beta version I might be more patient: fixing issues is easy since the game's base is solid... instead it's an alpha and makes me think of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoGWuK5e_nY

[Bewolf]

It's ok.


Of course I am happy, but this is not the point. They were late on their delivery with Ubisoft, remember what Oleg said? The cause for this can be anything: poor managing, little resources, stuff that needed to be redone from scracth.. I dunno, not my problem, and again, I'm happy they delivered the game as it is, but for the love of honesty and respect, tell the community that the money they're spending is a long term investment on a yet to be completed alpha. Il-2 was nowhere near this bad when it originally came out, and the bad reviews they received with CoD have done them no good.


It won't, but that's not my interest. Regular updates are useful to the community to know on which feedback aspects they can help and to show the newcomers that the game is far from dead, there's a lot of work going on and a very professional one. When you want to go pro, you need to behave like a pro.



Oh no, of course they are, but they're leaving it all to an oblivious state of "it's fixed when it's fixed" which, again for the laws of Public Relations, marketing and common sense, it's not a good idea, especially when you sell for good an unfinished product.

Do you understand my point better now?

I never saw Maddox Games as "Pros". More like nerds like us that want to make this Sim happen with lots of personal sacrifices involved. They clearly are not in the game development for purely moneys sake, else they would have gone the Silent Hunter V route a long time ago, or the RoF route, charging for individual airplanes.

I understand your point very well, but it applies more to a big publisher like Ubisoft or EA, not a small russian Sim development team that does not get paid for any extras, especially not for diretly communicating with an abusive fanbase that tends to rip of arms when presented a little finger and is full of an entitelment attitude that was unheared of just 20 years ago. In the past, development updates just caused people to flame even more because their specific problem was not adressed. In all seriousness, Maddox Games is still consiting of human beings, in doubt seriously overworked and tired human beings. Them not being able or willing to respond in a careful manner with all the sh+tstorms on this forum is not really so wonderous.

[furbs]

Anyone getting deja vu?

[Fjordmonkey]

Anyone getting deja vu?

I've had it for some 45 pages so far :P

[Bewolf]

Anyone getting deja vu?

You most certainly do, "constant repitition" bug once again at work here.

[JG52Uther]

I've had it for some 45 pages so far :P

:D
Quite a few of the other threads are going the same way.I think people are following each other around to continue the argument.
Imagine if that happened in the pub.someone would get a slap ;)

[bongodriver]

Man.....take a look at us, intelligent human beings, who by rights should have so much in common, and we end up here on most threads now, if we are honest with ourselves wouldn't we admit that despite the adversarial attitudes flying around here on occasion some of us exchange some quite pleasant replies......and it just feels so much better to stop arguing?

nobody is going to change anybodys mind here...thats clear, we really need to find a way to accomodate both sides.

[bongodriver]

:D
Quite a few of the other threads are going the same way.I think people are following each other around to continue the argument.
Imagine if that happened in the pub.someone would get a slap ;)

thats why i suggested a meet up, piss up and punch up :grin:

[JG52Krupi]

We would all end up pissed over Dover in a hot air balloon and anybody that says that the landscape in COD is not that bad will be the first to go overboard... Luckily I never leave the house without a parachute :D

[furbs]

Shall we all break for lunch?

back at 3pm?

[Sternjaeger II]

Shall we all break for lunch?

back at 3pm?

cor that's quite a long lunchbreak, lucky sod! ;)

[Sternjaeger II]

I never saw Maddox Games as "Pros". More like nerds like us that want to make this Sim happen with lots of personal sacrifices involved. They clearly are not in the game development for purely moneys sake, else they would have gone the Silent Hunter V route a long time ago, or the RoF route, charging for individual airplanes.

That's quite a romantic view, but far from the truth. Maybe it was in the very beginning, and god knows how long it took them to develop the first IL-2 engine, but over all those years they could have invested their results better. Sometime the arrogance and egotism of one is cause of a lot of trouble, knowing when to step down in favour of a professional who can manage things in a better direction is a hard step to take, but sometimes a necessary one. And I'm saying this with no bitter feelings, it's just an objective observation on the conduct of a company (because Maddox Games is a company).


I understand your point very well, but it applies more to a big publisher like Ubisoft or EA, not a small russian Sim development team that does not get paid for any extras, especially not for diretly communicating with an abusive fanbase that tends to rip of arms when presented a little finger and is full of an entitelment attitude that was unheared of just 20 years ago. In the past, development updates just caused people to flame even more because their specific problem was not adressed. In all seriousness, Maddox Games is still consiting of human beings, in doubt seriously overworked and tired human beings. Them not being able or willing to respond in a careful manner with all the sh+tstorms on this forum is not really so wonderous.

we bypassed the publisher BS here, we went straight to the source. What do you know about what/how/when they get paid, and why would it matter? Remember that what's a hobby to us is a job to them, they aren't doing it in their spare time.

Every software house is made of human beings, some are managed more efficiently than others. There is a lot of cloud networking being done today (look at the excellent Daidalos Team), so it's not even a matter of having to be in the office or speak the same language.

[bongodriver]

see you on sunday.....I'm off to Greece......though I'll have my ipad so I might see you before ;)

[Sternjaeger II]

see you on sunday.....I'm off to Greece......though I'll have my ipad so I might see you before ;)

have fun Bongo, and don't forget to bring some drachmas, you never know! ;)

[Bewolf]

That's quite a romantic view, but far from the truth. Maybe it was in the very beginning, and god knows how long it took them to develop the first IL-2 engine, but over all those years they could have invested their results better. Sometime the arrogance and egotism of one is cause of a lot of trouble, knowing when to step down in favour of a professional who can manage things in a better direction is a hard step to take, but sometimes a necessary one. And I'm saying this with no bitter feelings, it's just an objective observation on the conduct of a company (because Maddox Games is a company).



we bypassed the publisher BS here, we went straight to the source. What do you know about what/how/when they get paid, and why would it matter? Remember that what's a hobby to us is a job to them, they aren't doing it in their spare time.

Every software house is made of human beings, some are managed more efficiently than others. There is a lot of cloud networking being done today (look at the excellent Daidalos Team), so it's not even a matter of having to be in the office or speak the same language.

Man, I have worked in the industry myself. And attitudes like yours is exactly the reason why I left it. Game development is one of the toughest jobs out there from all the ones available, chronically underpaid and overtime being the excepted norm without compensation payment. That was even the case in Germany, I do not even want to know how this works in Russia. You only enter the business because you have fun developing games in general, for sure not for the money.

If you can't accept the simulation business being a very rough and small one, instead expecting german Mittelstand like cynism and clinical performance you have the wrong hobby, that simple.

[Hunden]

[QUOTE=Bewolf;315586]I simply go by Einstein "Stupidity is doing the same thing again and again and still expecting a different result". If you consider that arrogance, so be it.



Nascar anyone?

[Querer]

Man, I have worked in the industry myself. And attitudes like yours is exactly the reason why I left it. Game development is one of the toughest jobs out there from all the ones available, chronically underpaid and overtime being the excepted norm without compensation payment. That was even the case in Germany, I do not even want to know how this works in Russia. You only enter the business because you have fun developing games in general, for sure not for the money.

If you can't accept the simulation business being a very rough and small one, instead expecting german Mittelstand like cynism and clinical performance you have the wrong hobby, that simple.

You're right, but we can still expect from the company selling software to do the best job possible. If this is not possible due to whatever reason, the customer decide whether to buy it or not, so basically it is each ones own fault in buying the software although it is crap, especially with forums filled with threads about the bugs of the software. However, in today's world, no one of the developer has then to complain about not making enough money due to low sell rates, that's life as well. If they do not want to keep up with the standarts we are used to, bad luck, sooner or later they are not able to sell anything anymore. Sadly, I see more and more companies drifting towards mean quality standarts and more and more people who accept this and even justify this by comments as above. I am sorry for the poor working conditions in this branch of software development, but honestly, I also have to take extra care that I do not do anything wrong in my job, even if this goes with unpaid extra hours. So what? Quality is what makes the products more valuable over others, if you don't want to stick to this, it's your choice but you have to life with the outcome.
Comments like the one from Luthier are funny in a way, as we all know that they try hard to get this new sound engine implemented and are fed up with all the questions about the progress, but if we are absolutely strict, comments like this are just a offense to us customers as a proper sound engine should have been part of the initial release product. As already some people mentioned, for other products we are as well not willing to accept an unfinished one being sold as finished. And I am sure, that Luthier would as well complain if his OS would be as buggy as his game. The difference? The big company behind the OS? Simply not a valuable argument, as there are example of small software companies offering products almost free of bugs...
Well, enough text now, I belong to the group of customers buying CloD with knowing about all the bugs and I still got several hours fun out of it and thanks to the fact that there are other things in life, I am waiting for the updates :cool:

[313_Paegas]

.... good to hear that things are progressing,
I hope to have a playable (on - and offline) "Cliffs of Dover" by christmas this year. In the meantime I fly "Rise of Flight".

;)

...indeed, my words ;) RoF is amazing and it will cut down me waiting for some better sim from second war. (May be http://www.worldofplanesgame.com/en)
On the other side, I have to say, that CoD was really very successful, mainly for PC and hardware dealer. ;)

[Bewolf]

You're right, but we can still expect from the company selling software to do the best job possible. If this is not possible due to whatever reason, the customer decide whether to buy it or not, so basically it is each ones own fault in buying the software although it is crap, especially with forums filled with threads about the bugs of the software. However, in today's world, no one of the developer has then to complain about not making enough money due to low sell rates, that's life as well. If they do not want to keep up with the standarts we are used to, bad luck, sooner or later they are not able to sell anything anymore. Sadly, I see more and more companies drifting towards mean quality standarts and more and more people who accept this and even justify this by comments as above. I am sorry for the poor working conditions in this branch of software development, but honestly, I also have to take extra care that I do not do anything wrong in my job, even if this goes with unpaid extra hours. So what? Quality is what makes the products more valuable over others, if you don't want to stick to this, it's your choice but you have to life with the outcome.
Comments like the one from Luthier are funny in a way, as we all know that they try hard to get this new sound engine implemented and are fed up with all the questions about the progress, but if we are absolutely strict, comments like this are just a offense to us customers as a proper sound engine should have been part of the initial release product. As already some people mentioned, for other products we are as well not willing to accept an unfinished one being sold as finished. And I am sure, that Luthier would as well complain if his OS would be as buggy as his game. The difference? The big company behind the OS? Simply not a valuable argument, as there are example of small software companies offering products almost free of bugs...
Well, enough text now, I belong to the group of customers buying CloD with knowing about all the bugs and I still got several hours fun out of it and thanks to the fact that there are other things in life, I am waiting for the updates :cool:

I think you are saddling the horse from the rear here. It is not like we buy this Sim out of pure altruism. Ppl here "want" that Sim and given there is no alternative out there, argueing on a "oh, so they failed, bad luck, let's move on" is not exactly the most smart way to apporach this issue. Sure, if you go by this "customer is always right" principle, then you certainly have a point. But in it's final consequence, that would mean, no Sim at all. Purely personal opinion here, but I rather have a flawed product with ppl working on it to solve the issue then no product at all. And it is not as if those folks, as many times metioned before, do not have a history of delivering.

Imho, a lot of trust and perspective here is simply destoyed by people that obviously consider market principles of a higher value then having a flight Sim.

[ramstein]

see you on sunday.....I'm off to Greece......though I'll have my ipad so I might see you before ;)

If turkey were attacked from the rear, would greece help?

[Sternjaeger II]

Man, I have worked in the industry myself. And attitudes like yours is exactly the reason why I left it. Game development is one of the toughest jobs out there from all the ones available, chronically underpaid and overtime being the excepted norm without compensation payment. That was even the case in Germany, I do not even want to know how this works in Russia. You only enter the business because you have fun developing games in general, for sure not for the money.

If you can't accept the simulation business being a very rough and small one, instead expecting german Mittelstand like cynism and clinical performance you have the wrong hobby, that simple.

Bewolf, being a programmer is a job like many other chronically underpaid there, with no overtime and extra compensations.

It's called gaming industry, you're selling an entertainment product, but you're actually working and being paid for its development. If you couldn't get a good deal and didn't agree with the mentality it's down to your managing line, not to the customers.

Let's put things into the right perspective here: while we're talking here there are constantly half a million people playing with Call of Duty: Black Ops (and this is only a datum for the PS3 users), a game that is as addictive as crystal meth and that, as an expert, you know better than me that it didn't take them long to develop.

Our sims are just a minute niche compared to these monsters, and as that is not enough, the complicated work behind sims is way more demanding in terms of resources than any FPS, which just needs some cinematic looks and some graphic/gameplay gizmos, other than an extensive beta testing.

As a consequence you will need a way more efficient team, but above all managing, of the resources you have to develop a simulator. The extra drive has to come from passion, otherwise you're gonna end up hospitalised with a bad nervous breakdown.

The world of simulation is a different and complicated one, but if anything it needs some extra firm, careful managing, both in the production line and in the public relations.

[furbs]

Luthier should of posted a couple of samples of the new sound. that would of more than satisfied most here.

[Allons!]

If turkey were attacked from the rear, would greece help?

its more likely the greek were attacked from the rear.. just to give this thread a sudden twist, hehe

[Bewolf]

Bewolf, being a programmer is a job like many other chronically underpaid there, with no overtime and extra compensations.

It's called gaming industry, you're selling an entertainment product, but you're actually working and being paid for its development. If you couldn't get a good deal and didn't agree with the mentality it's down to your managing line, not to the customers.

Let's put things into the right perspective here: while we're talking here there are constantly half a million people playing with Call of Duty: Black Ops (and this is only a datum for the PS3 users), a game that is as addictive as crystal meth and that, as an expert, you know better than me that it didn't take them long to develop.

Our sims are just a minute niche compared to these monsters, and as that is not enough, the complicated work behind sims is way more demanding in terms of resources than any FPS, which just needs some cinematic looks and some graphic/gameplay gizmos, other than an extensive beta testing.

As a consequence you will need a way more efficient team, but above all managing, of the resources you have to develop a simulator. The extra drive has to come from passion, otherwise you're gonna end up hospitalised with a bad nervous breakdown.

The world of simulation is a different and complicated one, but if anything it needs some extra firm, careful managing, both in the production line and in the public relations.

Spot on. And now go the extra step and think this through a bit further. As the Sim business is such a niche genre without huge amounts of money to be made, you won't get those Pros and extra careful managing into this niche.

Actually, be careful what you wish for in the first place, because if we get professional business into this genre comparable to Call of Duty and the likes, expect to pay 20 bucks each time a new map is released, another 10 bucks for an aircraft DLC. Brave new world.

[Sternjaeger II]

Spot on. And now go the extra step and think this through a bit further. As the Sim business is such a niche genre without huge amounts of money to be made, you won't get those Pros and extra careful managing into this niche.

Actually, be careful what you wish for in the first place, because if we get professional business into this genre comparable to Call of Duty and the likes, expect to pay 20 bucks each time a new map is released, another 10 bucks for an aircraft DLC. Brave new world.

Trust me, you will always find pros ready for a challenge. Again, you might have to outsource outside of Russia, but it's worth the investment. As much as you have cloud programming you can have cloud managing, and believe me, it works.

As for sims being a niche market: if you observed carefully the evolution of IL-2, you might have noticed that there was an (unnecessary?) development towards jets. Il-2 1946 became actually a huge testing bed for the flight model envelope and limitations (The Lerche was a bed for the helicopters potential), to see whether the behaviour of jets would work. As you know, modders made a fantastic F-86 Sabre and now even introduced Sidewinders.

There has been a time, in the development of CoD, when Oleg thought that if having the right investors, his new flight model could have been used for a successor to the Microsoft Flight Simulator series.

Something didn't happen, and the thing deflated back to its original project, but it's obvious that the potential is still there. Hitting the Flight Simulator core would surely be no niche product..

[dali]

this one is more suitable for what you've created....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzae_SqbmDE

[Bewolf]

Trust me, you will always find pros ready for a challenge. Again, you might have to outsource outside of Russia, but it's worth the investment. As much as you have cloud programming you can have cloud managing, and believe me, it works.

As for sims being a niche market: if you observed carefully the evolution of IL-2, you might have noticed that there was an (unnecessary?) development towards jets. Il-2 1946 became actually a huge testing bed for the flight model envelope and limitations (The Lerche was a bed for the helicopters potential), to see whether the behaviour of jets would work. As you know, modders made a fantastic F-86 Sabre and now even introduced Sidewinders.

There has been a time, in the development of CoD, when Oleg thought that if having the right investors, his new flight model could have been used for a successor to the Microsoft Flight Simulator series.

Something didn't happen, and the thing deflated back to its original project, but it's obvious that the potential is still there. Hitting the Flight Simulator core would surely be no niche product..

Maybe, but wishful thinking never solved any present problems.
Evidently, If pros would go into niche markets to look for a challenge, then they'd already be there.

The rest it half true, but hardly relevant for the debate at hand.

[Sternjaeger II]

Bewolf, check your PM.

[retrojet]

This thread should be re-named the Lufbery Circle...
Only trouble is, everyone set 'unlimited ammo' and 'indestructible' to 'on'...
It really is a shame that cod is such a rough diamond for now... I just think a little more optimism, instead of pessimism, would help the blood pressure levels in here :)
I certainly understand how frustrated all you Experten guys feel, but as an expert in how to crash, I can still say this sim has a pretty amazing 'wow' factor every time I start her up! Am I a bad person? :-D
It can only get better from here on out, don't you agree?

Gone on, it won't hurt too much... life's too short as it is!

Luthier... Please help us... Coz group hugs ain't my style!

:-D:-D:-D

[Jatta Raso]

This thread should be re-named the Lufbery Circle...
Only trouble is, everyone set 'unlimited ammo' and 'indestructible' to 'on'...
It really is a shame that cod is such a rough diamond for now... I just think a little more optimism, instead of pessimism, would help the blood pressure levels in here :)
I certainly understand how frustrated all you Experten guys feel, but as an expert in how to crash, I can still say this sim has a pretty amazing 'wow' factor every time I start her up! Am I a bad person? :-D
It can only get better from here on out, don't you agree?

Gone on, it won't hurt too much... life's too short as it is!

Luthier... Please help us... Coz group hugs ain't my style!

:-D:-D:-D

roftl now this is post of the year material

[JG52Krupi]

This thread should be re-named the Lufbery Circle...
Only trouble is, everyone set 'unlimited ammo' and 'indestructible' to 'on'...
It really is a shame that cod is such a rough diamond for now... I just think a little more optimism, instead of pessimism, would help the blood pressure levels in here :)
I certainly understand how frustrated all you Experten guys feel, but as an expert in how to crash, I can still say this sim has a pretty amazing 'wow' factor every time I start her up! Am I a bad person? :-D
It can only get better from here on out, don't you agree?

Gone on, it won't hurt too much... life's too short as it is!

Luthier... Please help us... Coz group hugs ain't my style!

:-D:-D:-D

LMAO

Agreed post of the year :D

[Jatta Raso]

and with my last post i'm senior member yahoo! although i kinda don't know if that changes anything

indeed it's post of the year material from retrojet ;)

[Icewolf]

this outstanding update by Luthier and the professionalism with which it was presented has convinced me to buy this game.

Game ordered

[furbs]

this outstanding update by Luthier and the professionalism with which it was presented has convinced me to buy this game.

Game ordered

Your inspiring and meaningful post has convinced me to buy a 2nd copy of COD and send Luthier a bunch of flowers.

Flowers sent.

[retrojet]

LMAO

Agreed post of the year :D

Whoa!... hold on JG52Krupi... Do you mean you agree that cod will get better, or just that it was an ok post?! :confused:
:-D

[JG52Krupi]

Whoa!... hold on JG52Krupi... Do you mean you agree that cod will get better, or just that it was an ok post?! :confused:
:-D

LOL so I am a whiner and a fanboy.....

I have always believed that COD will get better all I want is the end of the moaning and updates by Luthier :confused:

[retrojet]

and with my last post i'm senior member yahoo! although i kinda don't know if that changes anything

indeed it's post of the year material from retrojet ;)
:mrgreen:

Shucks! You guys taught me everything I know!
It's just that I can tell exhaustion is setting in, and everyone deserves a beer or 3! :-D:-D:-D

Time to shake hands, and agree to disagree...
All for one, and one for the next patch! It's nearly Friday:mrgreen:

It's just not worth beating each other up, when we're really all on the same team... Flight sim freaks to the end! :evil:
:grin:

[retrojet]

LOL so I am a whiner and a fanboy.....

I have always believed that COD will get better all I want is the end of the moaning and updates by Luthier :confused:

Hehe... Miracles do happen! And they are usually worth waiting for... It's just a loooooooooooooooooong wait! :-D
Maybe Luthier will show some mercy, and soooooooooooooooooon! :-D

[Bewolf]

This thread should be re-named the Lufbery Circle...
Only trouble is, everyone set 'unlimited ammo' and 'indestructible' to 'on'...
It really is a shame that cod is such a rough diamond for now... I just think a little more optimism, instead of pessimism, would help the blood pressure levels in here :)
I certainly understand how frustrated all you Experten guys feel, but as an expert in how to crash, I can still say this sim has a pretty amazing 'wow' factor every time I start her up! Am I a bad person? :-D
It can only get better from here on out, don't you agree?

Gone on, it won't hurt too much... life's too short as it is!

Luthier... Please help us... Coz group hugs ain't my style!

:-D:-D:-D

Always a pleasure to contribute to some good spirits, that post had it all :D :D :D

[retrojet]

Anyway...

See you up there!

[retrojet]

'Nuff said! ;)

[Richie]

"Let's Get Small"..."When people are out of work we should give them a Banjo"


I love that line.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l31MSpojWTA

[bongodriver]

Good to see we are on the way to reconciliation, stuff always seems to happen when I'm away, which leads me to this question....my second sector of the day yesterday, took me to kalamata air base in Greece, which is a training base I guess? Aside from the pc-9's I saw what looked like Buckeyes lined up on the military ramp, is that right? Also some other aircraft I didn't recognise, looking similar to the raf's old jet provost, any Greek air force buffs know what they might have been?

[Old_Canuck]

Good to hear about the sound Luthier.

Luthier made more sense in one sentence than the following 50 pages of nonsense. I suggest you pay someone to read the forum for you, Luthier, and give you a short paragraph or two summary of the meaningful content if there is even that much. Be sure to provide psychiatric counseling for the reader.

[MD_Titus]

you think they'd be able to pad it out to a paragraph?

[Blackdog_kt]

Good to see we are on the way to reconciliation, stuff always seems to happen when I'm away, which leads me to this question....my second sector of the day yesterday, took me to kalamata air base in Greece, which is a training base I guess? Aside from the pc-9's I saw what looked like Buckeyes lined up on the military ramp, is that right? Also some other aircraft I didn't recognise, looking similar to the raf's old jet provost, any Greek air force buffs know what they might have been?

I'm from Greece so i maybe i can help you.

Kalamata is indeed the basic flight training base for the local air force. Currently they use the T-6 Texan II turboprop (which i think is very similar to the Pilatus) replacing the older Cessnas (they had both a C-152 variant or something similar and T-37s in the past). The Buckeyes were supposed to also be replaced but the program has been delayed. They've got loads of retired F-5s they could use as lead-in trainers if they wanted to bring them back to active status and do it cheap, the other option is to shop for new airframes among the Aermachi trainers, Bae Hawks or the Korean T-50.

Out of interest, are you visiting on vacation or is it work related? Please don't tell me there's some kind of airshow going on around Athens, i'm situated on the other end of the country up north and it's quite expensive to make the trip south :-P

[furbs]

you think they'd be able to pad it out to a paragraph?

Well, the update wasn't more than a sentence.

[bongodriver]

Aaahh....of course, not pilatus but Texan 2's, so they were buckeyes, but no idea what the other things I described were? I guess they did look a bit like t-37's

I am here for work ,or was, I am in Firenze now, I fly private jets for charter, we often end up in military bases.

Thanks

[Vengeanze]

I am here for work ,or was, I am in Firenze now, I fly private jets for charter

I'm a IT security technician. Lets swap careers, ok!?!
Or if that doesn't work, marry me and take me with you. :-D

[bongodriver]

I'm a IT security technician. Lets swap careers, ok!?!
Or if that doesn't work, marry me and take me with you. :-D

Well I can assume you are from Sweden, that's always a good start, but alas I fear being here on a flight sim forum you aren't the swede I'm looking for, how good do you look in a bikini? :grin:

[JG52Uther]

Well I can assume you are from Sweden, that's always a good start, but alas I fear being here on a flight sim forum you aren't the swede I'm looking for, how good do you look in a bikini? :grin:

Hypoxia is your friend... ;)

[Heliocon]

Bad delivery...

[bongodriver]

Bad delivery...

Story of my life......

[bongodriver]

Hypoxia is your friend... ;)

God damn those pressurised cabins.....there are times when a good hypoxic trip would be welcome on some sectors....:grin: