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View Full Version : Paccus HAWK-First joystick with hydraulic feedback


gabberfreak
02-03-2011, 02:24 PM
www.paccus.nl (http://www.paccus.nl)

Good News:
'thank you for your inquiry. We are currently testing the production prototype and trying to get the money from the bank to start production. As you might know, we are a new small company and that makes it difficult to convince a bank to put money in our company. We hope to get funding in February. Than we can start to create the production tools and make the first run. We plan to have the first units available by this summer. The price will be around €450. You could help us by passing on the good news. The more people that are interested in our products, the easier it will get to convince the bank. We will add you to our updates. Thank you again and we sure hope to make you happy in the near future.

kind regards
The Paccus Team
Bart Sikkens'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATaA98FKh2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2TGjmI_oM0

Luftwaffepilot
02-03-2011, 02:30 PM
Looks ugly. The price, too.

nearmiss
02-03-2011, 03:41 PM
Reminds me of the old proverb... A day late and a dollar short.

The most successful joysticks look like something out of aircraft, not a whizzer doodle kitchen appliance.

The placement of buttons is not about how they look, but the way they are used.( by the peope) Ergonomics I think is how descrbed.

Forcefeedback is not that big a deal. All the bouncing around makes it more difficult to get hits on target. That equates to lower performance, which is not so go playing online.

The best way to enter JS market is to produce a better product than we have now, that has all the buttons in all the places people want them. Oh yes, and it would help to have some switches as well.

Programmable keys is the biggy for the future.

The price is too expensive... just for a joystick. We can buy complete HOTAS for less, which is tried and proven by thousands of users.

If the stick was retail under $100 USD it might appeal to some hen pecked husbands. Afterall, wives are probably our greatest critics. So... maybe a slick looking kitchen appliance appearing joystick might make our hobby more acceptable. Then again, I doubt it.

I may be too critical, but when you spend a fortune trying to promote a dog that won't hunt it will be too late.

Don't reinvent the wheel... the market is saturated. There are already too many joysticks available, and they aren't that bad.

You want a market in Joysticks it's right there in front of the world.

The most recommended stick of all time MSFT FF2. There you have it, find a way to produce it, with some additional features and you've got a winner.

Oh yeah, and the button positions on the MSFT FF2 suck as well.

swiss
02-03-2011, 03:52 PM
less than $100? That would mean you'll have to produce it for $10.

recoilfx
02-04-2011, 12:02 AM
Reminds me of the old proverb... A day late and a dollar short.

The most successful joysticks look like something out of aircraft, not a whizzer doodle kitchen appliance.

The placement of buttons is not about how they look, but the way they are used.( by the peope) Ergonomics I think is how descrbed.

Forcefeedback is not that big a deal. All the bouncing around makes it more difficult to get hits on target. That equates to lower performance, which is not so go playing online.

The best way to enter JS market is to produce a better product than we have now, that has all the buttons in all the places people want them. Oh yes, and it would help to have some switches as well.

Programmable keys is the biggy for the future.

The price is too expensive... just for a joystick. We can buy complete HOTAS for less, which is tried and proven by thousands of users.

If the stick was retail under $100 USD it might appeal to some hen pecked husbands. Afterall, wives are probably our greatest critics. So... maybe a slick looking kitchen appliance appearing joystick might make our hobby more acceptable. Then again, I doubt it.

I may be too critical, but when you spend a fortune trying to promote a dog that won't hunt it will be too late.

Don't reinvent the wheel... the market is saturated. There are already too many joysticks available, and they aren't that bad.

You want a market in Joysticks it's right there in front of the world.

The most recommended stick of all time MSFT FF2. There you have it, find a way to produce it, with some additional features and you've got a winner.

Oh yeah, and the button positions on the MSFT FF2 suck as well.

I have to disagree about force feedback not being a big deal - it's a big deal when it's done right. If the joystick is able to offer more resistance than MSFFB2, we will truly feel the heaviness of the stick when diving.

MSFFB2 just can't do it well with its motors, especially when the stick has been extended. The hydraulic approach seems to be able to solve that with more force.

While the force feedback may throw off aim at times, as long as it is proportional to real life, i have no problems with it. This is a SIMULATION after all - I don't want a super steady stick if real life pilots don't have one.

I agree with it looking like a toy though, they totally missed their target audience.

kingpinda
02-04-2011, 12:02 AM
Yeah the looks don't appeal to me either. I really would love a better setup though. i now have a G940 and it rocks but I'm looking for somewhat more 'proffesional' stuff.

What i read in snippets on the web is that Paccus will consider different models in the future and I have also heard speculation on throttles and rudders. also hydraulic. Now that would rock. the cheapest hydraulic rudders I have come across are close to 1500 euros.

you must realise that this company is not a big player yet. From what i gather they will be implementing joysticks for the industry/medical stuffies also. So lets hope they get their funding straightened out and sell lots of stuff so they will branch out in the near future :) More proffesional players in the sim hardware world is what we need. competition creates diversity. And in my opinion thats what we need in this niche market.

So I wish my landgenoten all the best of luck and hopefully we will see some awsomeness soon :)

ElAurens
02-04-2011, 12:37 AM
I wonder what happens when it blows a seal and leaks hydraulic fluid all over your desk and keyboard?

CharveL
02-04-2011, 01:38 AM
Design Fail.

It looks like ass. Worse, it looks like cheap ass what with the chrome plastic look (even if it's machined it looks like fake chrome) and symmetrical button layout. Are they trying to appeal to the console market? I agree it's a total demographic fail.

They should have went for an industrial look with functionality in mind.

Too bad cause I'd like them to do well at least so there's another player in the market but good luck getting any serious bank funding from this.

lbuchele
02-04-2011, 02:10 AM
You need to hire a industrial designer to help you.Joysticks,as cars,are bought with the eyes too.

Avimimus
02-04-2011, 02:58 AM
I never understood putting buttons at the base of a joystick (difficult to maintain the best posture for control) and why there are so few buttons on the handle (eg. like on the Gravis Firebird).

Anyway, these sticks are all too expensive.

It is interesting that good medium-range joysticks no longer seem to exist?

xnomad
02-04-2011, 06:52 AM
I love force feedback and find the game almost dead without it. It's a like a speedometer you can feel. If the stick is slack you are slow, the more the stick tightens the faster you are going. If it starts to flutter, you are on the edge of stalling. I just can't understand that some people don't find that useful!!!

Without FFB you can get distracted in a dogfight and not know how fast you are but an FFB stick will tell you, if you are starting to lose too much speed you will feel it, you don't have to look down at the air speed indicator. That's just like a plane in real life.

Anyway I like the idea of a hydraulic stick but the price is insane. As for looks, who looks at their bloody joystick? It's in your hand! Anyone looking at their joystick is going to get shot down. People put too much importance on looks with tools etc these days.

Sven
02-04-2011, 09:48 AM
I like FFB as well, I use it for stall warning, and since I can adjust it very accurately it doesn´t mess up my flying or gunnery or anything, the power of the G940;) And looking at that thing... I'd rather stick with my logitech:grin:

Azimech
02-04-2011, 11:41 AM
I love my MS FF2 too. But for years I had the wrong settings. At last I have proper control and the force feedback is stronger than ever.

Skoshi Tiger
02-04-2011, 11:45 AM
I wonder what happens when it blows a seal and leaks hydraulic fluid all over your desk and keyboard?

That reminds me of the old Eskimo Joke!

Cheers!

ElAurens
02-04-2011, 12:24 PM
:cool:

swiss
02-04-2011, 12:28 PM
I love my MS FF2 too. But for years I had the wrong settings. At last I have proper control and the force feedback is stronger than ever.

Mine just arrived a few hours ago* - my ears are wide open for all of your suggestions.



* and when I opened the box, I wondered what kind of p1sshead you must be to sell a used joystick without wiping it with a damp cloth or so before you ship it. This is so disgusting! I even clean my x52 every twice a week or so.


That reminds me of the old Eskimo Joke!


Go ahead.

Azimech
02-04-2011, 12:47 PM
This is my preference but if you or anyone have better settings or ideas for even more control ... don't hesitate to post them. Maybe there exists a topic for this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/flexyco/il2Aile.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/flexyco/IL2Elev.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/flexyco/il2rudd.jpg

Bricks
02-04-2011, 01:35 PM
Reminds me of something you get in the adults-shop. :eek:

recoilfx
02-04-2011, 01:38 PM
Reminds me of something you get in the adults-shop. :eek:

To be fair, every joystick is like that. Force Feedback? Vibration? Center mounted?

Wife always gives me the look when I talk about my MSFFB2 :)

Azimech
02-04-2011, 01:39 PM
What does the light do? When the force disappears, does the light go dim? If you suspect something is broken, you might want to disassemble it. I have repaired mine once, used another one that was broken as well. They're quite easy to fix.

Azimech
02-04-2011, 01:50 PM
I've started a new topic for the MS FFB2: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?p=220228#post220228

engadin
05-11-2011, 11:07 PM
Some fresh news from the Paccus team:

"Dear pilot,

Do you remember we were working on realistic force feedback for your flightsims and games?

Not the kind of tickling in your hand, but a real force.
Not a faint feeling but realistic power.
Not some plastic toy but a solid aluminium stick.

Imagine how your flightsim experience changes if you can feel the wind on your ailerons and elevator.
Can you imagine how your shooter game experience changes if you feel the recoil like it's real?

It took time to create this perfect experience in a high quality and durable joystick.
And it is available very soon in a limited edition!

This weekend you can try the hydraulic force feedback at the UK's biggest flight sim weekend in Weston-super-Mare (near Bristol).
Check http://fscweston.co.uk for all details.

Next week we'll send you an impression of this event so keep an eye on your mailbox.

If you want to be sure you'll have your own Hawk within weeks, just send us an e-mail and you can be the first on our list.

with kind regards from the Paccus-team,
Ariella Bijl
www.paccus.com

P.S.: Share this e-mail with your friends so they too can benefit from this unique opportunity!

Paccus Joysticks - fast, precise and durable."

May Gods let us see how this joystick finally looks like, its features and how it works on a 'real sim' before our eyes. It will an exciting wait until I put my hands on that piece of HW. High hopes here.

Engadin.

swiss
05-11-2011, 11:24 PM
why do you call yourself engadin?

Rattlehead
05-11-2011, 11:44 PM
Looks interesting, but ye gods the price...:(

warbirds
05-12-2011, 01:46 AM
What is the price?

recoilfx
05-12-2011, 02:43 AM
~$600 something I think

Skiiwa
05-12-2011, 05:32 AM
Maybe they need to do a bit more reserch first. Ergonomics is WAY off. I wouldnt even buy it for 50.

JG27_PapaFly
05-12-2011, 11:20 AM
Here are my 2 cents...

First of all I'm very glad to see a company finally working on a high-end force feedback solution! Way to go! I'm a microsoft ffb user from the day they appeared and I still don't see a worthy successor.

Design: It's pretty obvious why they chose a symmetric design for stick and buttons: this layout will equally work for right- and lefthanded players, which is good. One of my squaddies is lefthanded and there are very few options for him on the market. On the other hand the symmetric design limits ergonomy and the amount of buttons that can be installed.

Stronger forces and a solid build sounds good, too. The cheap, plasticky feel of the G940 drove me off instantly. We need more sticks going in the warthog direction.

If the grip is solid aluminium, it should be padded. Without pads it'll feel cold and uncomfortable.

I hope this stick will sell well and that there will be dedicated sticks for left- and righthanded players in the future. This is the only way to have a proper amount of buttons, hats and sliders ergonomically placed.

S!

Artist
05-12-2011, 12:12 PM
And my 2 cents: Wouldn't it be nice, if they went one step further and offered just the sturdy hydraulic forcefeedback *base* (of the stick) with different sticks (Spit, Bf109, ...)?

It would be just what kept me from investing in a tarmac-aces' (http://www.tarmac-aces.com/html/en/hangar.php) Universal mechanical base: Stick in center position (mounted on the floor) with forcefeedback!

That would be so cool!

Artist

uahallie
05-12-2011, 12:51 PM
why do you call yourself engadin?

Perhaps for the same reason you call yourself "swiss"...he probably sends his Fritz-X skywards on Aug. 1st like you and me ;)

recoilfx
05-12-2011, 12:53 PM
And my 2 cents: Wouldn't it be nice, if they went one step further and offered just the sturdy hydraulic forcefeedback *base* (of the stick) with different sticks (Spit, Bf109, ...)?

It would be just what kept me from investing in a tarmac-aces' (http://www.tarmac-aces.com/html/en/hangar.php) Universal mechanical base: Stick in center position (mounted on the floor) with forcefeedback!

That would be so cool!

Artist


They did mention that the stick is interchangeable.

Heliocon
05-12-2011, 12:58 PM
I would go for it if they changed the color/style a bit, currently it looks horrendously ugly, seriously paint the metal and put a mat finish on it.

recoilfx
05-12-2011, 01:01 PM
It's not only the design - from their website, the stick only has 11 positions per degree, with maximum of 40 degrees from one end to the other. So the total res of one axes is only 440.

Not good enough for an high end stick if you ask me.

engadin
05-12-2011, 01:02 PM
why do you call yourself engadin?

Well, swiss, it's easy to understand, I guess: your Engadin or Engadine valley [I have seen it both ways written] is, AFAIK, the most beautiful in Europe, I repeat, from my own and particular POV, no offense intended, of course. I like it so much, mate, I also like its name ;o). So I took it borrowed as my nick.

Engadin.

albx
05-12-2011, 01:15 PM
where is a real image of this joystick? only rendered images? From this pictures, I don't like it. It's not an HOTAS and is expensive.

T}{OR
05-12-2011, 01:27 PM
Maybe they need to do a bit more reserch first. Ergonomics is WAY off. I wouldnt even buy it for 50.

I agree 100%, ergonomics look way off. And those buttons in particular.


Here are my 2 cents...

First of all I'm very glad to see a company finally working on a high-end force feedback solution! Way to go! I'm a microsoft ffb user from the day they appeared and I still don't see a worthy successor.

Design: It's pretty obvious why they chose a symmetric design for stick and buttons: this layout will equally work for right- and lefthanded players, which is good. One of my squaddies is lefthanded and there are very few options for him on the market. On the other hand the symmetric design limits ergonomy and the amount of buttons that can be installed.

Stronger forces and a solid build sounds good, too. The cheap, plasticky feel of the G940 drove me off instantly. We need more sticks going in the warthog direction.

If the grip is solid aluminium, it should be padded. Without pads it'll feel cold and uncomfortable.

I hope this stick will sell well and that there will be dedicated sticks for left- and righthanded players in the future. This is the only way to have a proper amount of buttons, hats and sliders ergonomically placed.

S!

+1

Artist
05-12-2011, 01:35 PM
recoilfx,
They did mention that the stick is interchangeable
Where? I did read their website again and couldn't find anything. What did I miss?

Is a resolution of 440 (precision = a quarter percent) really insufficient? I wonder what other joysticks deliver...

Artist

recoilfx
05-12-2011, 02:17 PM
recoilfx,

Where? I did read their website again and couldn't find anything. What did I miss?

Is a resolution of 440 (precision = a quarter percent) really insufficient? I wonder what other joysticks deliver...

Artist

For the interchangeable base info:
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3177689/Re_News_from_Paccus_maker_of_t.html#Post3177689

Resolution does matter, especially when you've extended the stick. You also notice it much more when zoomed in to the gun sights.

Resolution wise, MSFFB2 & X52 has 10bit (~1000). I believe G940 has 12bit.
T1600m & Warthog has 12bit interpolated to 16.

Also, please note that having higher res doesn't mean good accuracy if the mechanical gimball sucks.

This is why I now consider MSFFB2 & G940 inaccurate because of their stepper motors. You can never make smooth outputs with these sticks (google joytester graphs). x52 is useless due to non-linearity of output till it's modded.

Warthog has a center detent, but it has no dead zone, and my controls never wobbles since the gimbal system (when properly greased) is pretty smooth.

I hope this Paccus stick will do away with the stepper motor's detent effects.

Artist
05-12-2011, 03:30 PM
For the interchangeable base info:
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3177689/Re_News_from_Paccus_maker_of_t.html#Post3177689

Thanks!

Artist

Doc_uk
05-12-2011, 04:11 PM
It sure does look ugly, and the price,€450 yea right i dont think so.
Will stick with my warthog, somthing that looks and feels like a flight stick:grin:

Doc_uk
05-12-2011, 04:15 PM
Some fresh news from the Paccus team:

"Dear pilot,

Do you remember we were working on realistic force feedback for your flightsims and games?

Not the kind of tickling in your hand, but a real force.
Not a faint feeling but realistic power.
Not some plastic toy but a solid aluminium stick.

Imagine how your flightsim experience changes if you can feel the wind on your ailerons and elevator.
Can you imagine how your shooter game experience changes if you feel the recoil like it's real?

It took time to create this perfect experience in a high quality and durable joystick.
And it is available very soon in a limited edition!

This weekend you can try the hydraulic force feedback at the UK's biggest flight sim weekend in Weston-super-Mare (near Bristol).
Check http://fscweston.co.uk for all details.

Next week we'll send you an impression of this event so keep an eye on your mailbox.

If you want to be sure you'll have your own Hawk within weeks, just send us an e-mail and you can be the first on our list.

with kind regards from the Paccus-team,
Ariella Bijl
www.paccus.com

P.S.: Share this e-mail with your friends so they too can benefit from this unique opportunity!

Paccus Joysticks - fast, precise and durable."

May Gods let us see how this joystick finally looks like, its features and how it works on a 'real sim' before our eyes. It will an exciting wait until I put my hands on that piece of HW. High hopes here.

Engadin.
I dont think he is even reading some of the replys, in this topic lol

Hexcaliber
05-12-2011, 04:24 PM
It sure does look ugly, and the price,€450 yea right i dont think so.
Will stick with my warthog, somthing that looks and feels like a flight stick:grin:

Where the heck are you guys seeing prices this low, the hawk is advertised on their site at €2,450.00 that's $3525.16 give or take a few cents per euro for current exchange rate fluctuation.

Way over priced, ugly, and poor ergonomic design that does not take usability into consideration, if they ship 10 units I will be amazed. Whoever designed this has never used a stick in a flight sim, that is for damn sure; it is immediately evident the developers did no research whatsoever on their target audience and the competition. It is sad to see any new startup destined for failure right out the gate but I cannot see any gaming market this unit will appeal to.

engadin
05-12-2011, 04:41 PM
Where the heck are you guys seeing prices this low, the hawk is advertised on their site at €2,450.00 that's $3525.16 give or take a few cents per euro for current exchange rate fluctuation.

Way over priced, ugly, and poor ergonomic design that does not take usability into consideration, if they ship 10 units I will be amazed. Whoever designed this has never used a stick in a flight sim, that is for damn sure; it is immediately evident the developers did no research whatsoever on their target audience and the competition. It is sad to see any new startup destined for failure right out the gate but I cannot see any gaming market this unit will appeal to.

Mate, sincerely, you should wait a little and start your week-end fiesta on saturday, thursday is still too soon to jump into a beer pool and drawn in it .... almost.

Would you mind to point out the actual url where your out-of-this-world prices are supposed to show up?

Last year - 2010 - prices were €390 for the Hawk (FFB) and €280 for the Falcon (no FFB). [http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2661077438]

I am afraid exchange rates haven't fluctuated so much since then. Get a second look on your source of information, please.

Engadin.

brando
05-12-2011, 04:48 PM
Mate, sincerely, you should wait a little and start your week-end fiesta on saturday, thursday is still too soon to jump into a beer pool and drawn in it .... almost.

Would you mind to point out the actual url where your out-of-this-world prices are supposed to show up?

Last year - 2010 - prices were €390 for the Hawk (FFB) and €280 for the Falcon (no FFB). [http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2661077438]

I am afraid exchange rates haven't fluctuated so much since then. Get a second look on your source of information, please.

Engadin.

Try here; http://www.paccus.com/forcefeedbackjoystickshop

Prices in the 1,000s of Euros: Hawk Price: € 2,397.00, Falcon Price: € 1,647.00 (no FFB) :o

robtek
05-12-2011, 05:13 PM
This web-page doesn't exist anymore!

Fergal69
05-12-2011, 05:50 PM
I've a Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold

I chose this as it was a decent priced joystick at the time it was out & because it resembles a WWII fighter stick, in passing.

I can't understand some people who have the all singing all dancing joysticks that they can put flaps down, wheels down, etc. without having to take their hand off the joystick or throttle control - by having to move from joystick to keyboard, it at least resembles, again in passing, what WWII pilots had to do, ie. let go of something to change something else.

I don't have force feedback joystick as at the time i couldn't afford one. If/when this Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold lets me down then I'll consider a new joystick.

zoopyzook
05-12-2011, 05:59 PM
http://www.paccus.com/wp-content/uploads/Joysticks-Hawk-300x300.jpg

kind of looks like something you may find in some "specialist" movies :grin:

EDIT:

Reminds me of something you get in the adults-shop. :eek:

obviously your brain is wired the same as mine :eek:

brando
05-12-2011, 06:41 PM
This web-page doesn't exist anymore!
The link I posted certainly does

http://www.paccus.com/forcefeedbackjoystickshop

engadin
05-12-2011, 06:50 PM
Try here; http://www.paccus.com/forcefeedbackjoystickshop

Prices in the 1,000s of Euros: Hawk Price: € 2,397.00, Falcon Price: € 1,647.00 (no FFB) :o

Hi Brando, sorry but all I get is this:

'404 - Error
This is a standard message from your web browser indicating that the file trying to be accessed doesn't exist or isn't available; basically it means a dead end'.

You know what? These guys @ Paccus will also produce these joysticks versions for industrial and/or medical use. It is a plausible explanation that the high prices you provided were related to these professional sort of joysticks.

Engadin.

uahallie
05-12-2011, 07:02 PM
Perfectly working homepage, and absolutely crazy prices for that ugly fail...sorry to say.


Hi Brando, sorry but all I get is this:

'404 - Error
This is a standard message from your web browser indicating that the file trying to be accessed doesn't exist or isn't available; basically it means a dead end'.

You know what? These guys @ Paccus will also produce these joysticks versions for industrial and/or medical use. It is a plausible explanation that the high prices you provided were related to these professional sort of joysticks.

Engadin.

zoopyzook
05-12-2011, 07:24 PM
Hi Brando, sorry but all I get is this:

'404 - Error
This is a standard message from your web browser indicating that the file trying to be accessed doesn't exist or isn't available; basically it means a dead end'.

You know what? These guys @ Paccus will also produce these joysticks versions for industrial and/or medical use. It is a plausible explanation that the high prices you provided were related to these professional sort of joysticks.

Engadin.

try a proxy to connect to it (e.g http://hidemyass.com/), you may be blocked geographically to connect to the website

matsher
05-12-2011, 07:37 PM
Sadly, it does say on the website that it is 2397 Euro.

I am lefty so I support anything that caters for our breed. Sadly this interesting
piece of engineering is outta the question for about 95% of us. Even at the
stated £450 price mark... Thats sad cause I think it has great potential.

Especially with the ability to customize / interchange the sticks.
Maybe to a yoke design or a wheel attachment.

Companies like Saitek are great at ergonomics and design
but their build quality and components are so sub standard.

I'd welcome a new quality competitor however I must agree that at
that cost I'd rather buy myself a great used motorcycle than a joystick.

brando
05-12-2011, 07:38 PM
try a proxy to connect to it (e.g http://hidemyass.com/), you may be blocked geographically to connect to the website

That sounds correct. If I had a photobucket account I would post the page to prove it, but you'll just have to trust me. ;)

While these people may have created a remarkable joystick that 'may' get adapted to look something less like space age dildo - there's no way I (or most of the rest of us) will drop over £2,000 to find out how good it can be. Personally I think they're smoking dope

matsher
05-12-2011, 07:42 PM
Here is a sceengrab of the site with prices...

They should change it if the price has gone down.
It only leads to confusion.

T}{OR
05-12-2011, 07:49 PM
Sadly, it does say on the website that it is 2397 Euro.

I am lefty so I support anything that caters for our breed. Sadly this interesting
piece of engineering is outta the question for about 95% of us. Even at the
stated £450 price mark... Thats sad cause I think it has great potential.

w00t?! +2000€?! :o

Flight sims are a niche market as it is, and this joystick no matter how good or real it feels / is - will be available to what, 0.0001% of the virtual pilots??

For this amount I'd rather buy a Warthog + Simped rudder pedals, and still have enough money to buy 2 or 3 spare ones of each!

nearmiss
05-12-2011, 09:09 PM
Like a lead cloud, it just won't float.

ElAurens
05-12-2011, 09:31 PM
Like a lead cloud, it just won't float.


Much less fly...

:eek:

TeeJay82
05-12-2011, 10:14 PM
Looks Like a pimped microsoft sidewinder 3d

-Great concept, bad design/solutions, bad price, bad feeling bout it.

thnx for trying.. GL paccus

engadin
05-12-2011, 10:15 PM
Here is a sceengrab of the site with prices...

They should change it if the price has gone down.
It only leads to confusion.

Ooouuch! That prices hurt your eyes! There has to be some sort of mistake for those prices are 100% out of the sim market. I do not understand what happens. I have two MS Sidewinder FFB2 and after the G940 fiasco, I had - note the past tense - all my hopes on these guys at Paccus. But things look like a copy of my worst nightmares: not to be able to change my aged but trusty FFB2 for a nice piece of FFB HW like the Hawk. A pity. If that are the real prices, I guess there must be a ton at least of genetically altered weed involved.

Brando, it's me now the one to dive straight into a beer pool to drawn my sorrow.

Engadin.

Hexcaliber
05-12-2011, 11:38 PM
Mate, sincerely, you should wait a little and start your week-end fiesta on saturday, thursday is still too soon to jump into a beer pool and drawn in it .... almost.

Would you mind to point out the actual url where your out-of-this-world prices are supposed to show up?

Last year - 2010 - prices were €390 for the Hawk (FFB) and €280 for the Falcon (no FFB). [http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2661077438]

I am afraid exchange rates haven't fluctuated so much since then. Get a second look on your source of information, please.

Engadin.
You were saying?

Zerotown
05-13-2011, 09:10 AM
I've read - on an earlier version of the site - that prices currently listed are for exclusive, individually crafted models of the stick. Once the actual manufacturing process takes off, the prices will be far lower.

engadin
05-13-2011, 11:17 AM
I've read - on an earlier version of the site - that prices currently listed are for exclusive, individually crafted models of the stick. Once the actual manufacturing process takes off, the prices will be far lower.

Hi Zerotown, crossing my fingers you're right. It is true in a previous e-mail, Mr. Bart Sikkens, Paccus CEO, pointed out in your very same direction, Zerotwn, when saying:

"muchos gracias Gonzalo,

we will keep it in mind. In the mean time we work on a first exclusive series.

kind regards
Bart".

FIRST EXCLUSIVE SERIES.

I am afraid - and I would be very glad aswell - that's the point for those outrageously high prices.

I emailed him a few hours ago, asking for a confirmation on the price news. I'll tell you back as soon as he answers.

I mean they naturally want their joystick in the market in huge ammounts, if possible. The investment in development and world wide patents has been enormous. They do not want to throw all that effort away.

So marketing wise, what's the point for such heart-attack prices. To draw our attention on the more expensive joysticks in history, while we push our noses on the shop window, drooling, unable to reach for them?.

Sincerely I hope you're right Zerotown. Thanks for taking my hopes back to life.

Engadin.

Zerotown
05-13-2011, 12:03 PM
So marketing wise, what's the point for such heart-attack prices. To draw our attention on the more expensive joysticks in history, while we push our noses on the shop window, drooling, unable to reach for them?.

Hi Engadin. I think the current prices are largely due to the fact that it is extremely expensive for them to manufacture a single unique item. One has to calculate the price of each individual part and the man-hours needed to assemble them. Plus: Paccus is still a start-up company: each hour devoted to builing such a custom order is time that can't be spent talking to investors or fine-tuning an industrial process that produces the sticks in bulk etc. If I were them, I'd reflect that in my current pricing. If we consider these factors, the current price isn't all that strange.


Sincerely I hope you're right Zerotown. Thanks for taking my hopes back to life.

You're welcome :) I hope that Mr. Sikkens contacts you with some official confirmation. They are using some seriously impressive technology in their products. Like you, I'm very curious how they will handle.

swiss
05-13-2011, 03:40 PM
Hi Engadin. I think the current prices are largely due to the fact that it is extremely expensive for them to manufacture a single unique item. One has to calculate the price of each individual part and the man-hours needed to assemble them. Plus: Paccus is still a start-up company: each hour devoted to builing such a custom order is time that can't be spent talking to investors or fine-tuning an industrial process that produces the sticks in bulk etc. If I were them, I'd reflect that in my current pricing. If we consider these factors, the current price isn't all that strange.


And this is their 1st and probably last major error.
As start-up you should be able to finance yourself for at least 12 months with more less 0 turnover, heck you should even calculate loss on each item sold.

As small company they dont have the $ for a huge marketing campaign to enter the market, so they have to rely on customer feedback/Word of mouth.
With those fantasy prices they won't achieve either.

engadin
05-13-2011, 04:14 PM
And this is their 1st and probably last major error.
As start-up you should be able to finance yourself for at least 12 months with more less 0 turnover, heck you should even calculate loss on each item sold.

As small company they dont have the $ for a huge marketing campaign to enter the market, so they have to rely on customer feedback/Word of mouth.
With those fantasy prices they won't achieve either.

Starting is hard, really hard for a 'standard' start-up these days. And if you add the current entrepeneurial environment, with unreachable bank credit, it becomes harder, even.

But if you are introducing a worldwide new product, with the compulsory patents involved - you don't want to work for free for your potential competitors, big companies that can kick you out of the market in a couple months if you don't protect yourself - it's a burning hell. Twice a burning hell as Paccus has 2 patents on their products. The patent costs are outrageously high, as current Hawk price ;o). It's like the water drop torture: every month your patent agent will send you an email telling you about another over 2.000 euros payment or more for several yeras. And you CANNOT FORESEE the total amount of that worldwide patent costs because it depends on each and every country patent offices. What is OK and 'cheap' in Japan, may become a nightmare to get the patent for in Australia. Every patent office is likely to think different about your claims. And that means $$$$$$$$$$$$.

A real nightmare. I can tell.

Engadin.

nearmiss
05-13-2011, 04:54 PM
Yeah, but why re-invent the wheel. Serious, if I wanted into the Joystick business I would review all I could find on the MSFT FF2. I would find who made them for MSFT, etc. The patent may also be nil now, because in the US they are only good for 17 years.

That is probably the most popular stick of all time, and people are still buying them and paying high prices on auction sites. A used one is worth more than they sold for new.

I've got one sitting on the shelf I take down every now and then. I wouldn't sell it for 4 times what I paid. I'm not too high on Forcefeedback, but it is a diversion every now and then.

One very important point... The first product has got to be viable, popular, with attractive price points. You build the business from there.

Very poor business to pioneer new unproven products.

swiss
05-13-2011, 05:10 PM
Starting is hard, really hard for a 'standard' start-up these days. And if you add the current entrepeneurial environment, with unreachable bank credit, it becomes harder, even.

But if you are introducing a worldwide new product, with the compulsory patents involved - you don't want to work for free for your potential competitors, big companies that can kick you out of the market in a couple months if you don't protect yourself - it's a burning hell. Twice a burning hell as Paccus has 2 patents on their products. The patent costs are outrageously high, as current Hawk price ;o). It's like the water drop torture: every month your patent agent will send you an email telling you about another over 2.000 euros payment or more for several yeras. And you CANNOT FORESEE the total amount of that worldwide patent costs because it depends on each and every country patent offices. What is OK and 'cheap' in Japan, may become a nightmare to get the patent for in Australia. Every patent office is likely to think different about your claims. And that means $$$$$$$$$$$$.

A real nightmare. I can tell.
Engadin.


You know why most start-ups die? Because their burn rate is way too high.
With the product Paccus offers I wouldn't worry too much about Chinese copies*, they sell a high end product made in Europe for niche market.
I would guess this market is good for a high 3digit number p.a., world wide...


*For two reasons:
- cannot sell enough items
- product is too complicated to set up a cheap production run

patents: If Chinese want to copy you - they will, protection of intellectual property does not exist in China.

swiss
05-13-2011, 05:17 PM
I just thought about it - while their goal is correct, the way to get there is wrong.
Hydraulics are too complicated and too expensive - the future of FFB sticks probably lies in that technology with artificial muscles, anyone remember the robot bird using this technology which was linked in this forum recently?

Zerotown
05-13-2011, 06:06 PM
Yeah, but why re-invent the wheel. ... Very poor business to pioneer new unproven products.

A difficult decision indeed for every entrepreneur that tries something new. I guess Paccus might have looked at several different markets that would be viable for their technology. Their decision to focus on making a game-peripheral isn't strange when you think about it: they have technology that delivers a smooth FFB-experience, combined with very high accuracy. There's an existing market for it, in which die-hard simmers are willing to pay hard cash for top-quality products (though not €2400). I would probably do the same, since it's exiting to do. (But maybe I've just read to much 'Atlas Shrugged') :)


Hydraulics are too complicated and too expensive - the future of FFB sticks probably lies in that technology with artificial muscles

Oi swiss.. Artificial muscles. Now that's what I would call complicated and expensive technology ;)

Sauf
05-13-2011, 08:18 PM
Oi swiss.. Artificial muscles. Now that's what I would call complicated and expensive technology ;)


Complicated and expensive technology? Nah, aren't all "female pleasure devices" artificial muscles? You do have a point with complicated though, I may be old fashioned but looking at some of them I end up scratching my head wondering how they use the buggers, no pun intended

engadin
05-14-2011, 12:40 AM
Somehow good news: the confirmation of the exclusivity of this first batch of joysticks from Paccus. If you visit their web:

http://www.paccus.com/

you can read just above the price "The first exclusive, numbered series of Hawks/Falcons will be ready for shipping by June 2011". Maybe that is the reason for such pricing policy.

The clouds over the horizon are moving away, by now. Hope they do not have to come back afterwards.

Engadin.

P.S. Some additional info regarding the special features of these exclusive series included in the FAQ section of the Paccus web: http://www.paccus.com/forcefeedbackjoystickfaq

brando
05-14-2011, 01:36 AM
Somehow good news: the confirmation of the exclusivity of this first batch of joysticks from Paccus. If you visit their web:

http://www.paccus.com/

you can read just above the price "The first exclusive, numbered series of Hawks/Falcons will be ready for shipping by June 2011". Maybe that is the reason for such pricing policy.

The clouds over the horizon are moving away, by now. Hope they do not have to come back afterwards.

Engadin.

P.S. Some additional info regarding the special features of these exclusive series included in the FAQ section of the Paccus web: http://www.paccus.com/forcefeedbackjoystickfaq

Oh, and don't forget to add in the price of a set of Paccus hydraulic pedals to your budget :o

ATAG_Doc
05-14-2011, 01:55 AM
You know what that looks so European its not funny. I'd rather have something more fitting of the period this sim is set in if I could afford to over that crap n e day.

6BL Bird-Dog
05-14-2011, 02:15 AM
Tooo much dosh ..
Why don`t Microsoft get their head out their Rear and start selling the FFBII again or something similar but up to date .
I would gladly dump the stick section of my X52 Pro for a supported 2011 version of the most fun flight stick ever made.
It would be a case of FFBII011 Rules :)

kimosabi
05-14-2011, 07:05 AM
€2,397 for just a stick..... They need a reality check and in addition a market research. hydraulics or no hydraulics, that thing ain't gonna sell well. I love the G940 apart from that it is obviously designed and botched together by low salary slaves in China.

Hecke
05-26-2011, 02:26 PM
http://www.paccus.com/what-people-say-about-the-hawk

CharveL
05-26-2011, 03:08 PM
http://www.paccus.com/what-people-say-about-the-hawk

I didn't watch them all but the ones I did were pilots that don't fly flight sims.

They're reacting to the FFB which I'm sure is quite excellent but unfortunately it's the rest of the stick that's quite anemic.

I mean seriously, what kind of lame button layout is that? If you are marketing the console segment than great, keep it simple and looking good through the cellophane packaging but for flight simmers who might actually cough up the money for it you'd think they could have done at least a little bit of market research.

I also notice that it doesn't seem like they kept the whole cheap looking plastic chrome but instead used a cheap looking plastic look.

T}{OR
05-26-2011, 03:48 PM
I didn't watch them all but the ones I did were pilots that don't fly flight sims.

They're reacting to the FFB which I'm sure is quite excellent but unfortunately it's the rest of the stick that's quite anemic.

I mean seriously, what kind of lame button layout is that? If you are marketing the console segment than great, keep it simple and looking good through the cellophane packaging but for flight simmers who might actually cough up the money for it you'd think they could have done at least a little bit of market research.

I also notice that it doesn't seem like they kept the whole cheap looking plastic chrome but instead used a cheap looking plastic look.

+1

When I see a comparison to MSFF2, and by pilots that actually fly simulators (what did they test this on in the first place, FSX???) I will take it seriously.

Still - no matter how good it is, for that kind of money I can buy 2 PCs that will run CloD on max settings. And then some!

nearmiss
05-26-2011, 04:04 PM
Look at this listing for a Cessna 172

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CESSNA-172-SKYHAWK/1956-CESSNA-172-SKYHAWK/1201705.htm

Now... let me see I could only buy 5 of these joysticks, maybe 2 joysticks and 2 sets of pedals or I could buy a WHOLE AIRPLANE.


(http://www.controller.com/images/Controller/fullsize/89608241.jpg)

Longbone
05-26-2011, 06:03 PM
Look at this listing for a Cessna 172

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CESSNA-172-SKYHAWK/1956-CESSNA-172-SKYHAWK/1201705.htm

Now... let me see I could only buy 5 of these joysticks, maybe 2 joysticks and 2 sets of pedals or I could buy a WHOLE AIRPLANE.


(http://www.controller.com/images/Controller/fullsize/89608241.jpg)

Hi seems that you are right :)
look at this
http://www.flugzeug24.com/de/motorflugzeug/passagierflugzeug/keine-angabe/2181/marco-j-5.html

engadin
05-26-2011, 08:23 PM
About the chance to get some screenshots from the stick configuration software - something like the FFB2 never updated but excellent application - Paccus says:

"The stick does not have any drivers. We completely support the direct X protocol. This means that we actually use the standard drivers from windows. So to configure things, you typically use the control option in your games."

Engadin.

Forged
09-15-2012, 11:35 PM
Has anyone actually tried this stick out?

Not sure if I'd ever want to spend that kind of insane money on a single joystick - but I can't help being curious on how this stick performs. I can't find any real reviews anywhere (besides the few videos on their website).

-Forged

ElAurens
09-16-2012, 03:24 AM
I'm guessing that at this point it's become vaporware.

Fergal69
09-16-2012, 02:32 PM
Is it my imagination, or have they advertised this stick previously on either CloD or 1946 forum, as I remember seeing this before.

proton45
09-16-2012, 04:01 PM
Hmm...I'm in the market for a new joystick, and I like "force feedback" (when done right), BUT I have to admit that I would rather have a stick that emulated the looks of a "real" old time joystick. The German "KG 13" looks cool, and has a few buttons (if you need that_LOL), but the P-51 or RAF control sticks have a nice feel too.

It seems to me...that if you had the basic mechanics worked out, you could finish off the control column with any kind of upper stick grip.

Anyway...I hate to say it, but I dont think that this is the place for the joystick you have designed. Thats NOT to say, that their are not people out there, that would love this kind of thing...but most of the people here, are into the "old time" propeller driven, oil stained, loud and rumbling WW2 aerocraft.

Good Luck and all...

P.S. Oh, and $600(?), I dont think I could spend "that" kind of cash....any day.

engadin
09-16-2012, 08:30 PM
P.S. Oh, and $600(?), I dont think I could spend "that" kind of cash....any day.

$600? Mate, look better, that's what you save, my friend, while the actual price is 1.872,86$ for the FFB Hawk and 1.570,86$ for the FFB less Falcon.

And given those prices, no, this product is a thousand miles away from being vaporware. Not at all. This people at Paccus are currently focused on industrial and surgical 'relatives' of the above mentioned.

Engadin.

Forged
09-17-2012, 07:50 PM
$600? Mate, look better, that's what you save, my friend, while the actual price is 1.872,86$ for the FFB Hawk and 1.570,86$ for the FFB less Falcon.

And given those prices, no, this product is a thousand miles away from being vaporware. Not at all. This people at Paccus are currently focused on industrial and surgical 'relatives' of the above mentioned.

Engadin.

No kidding! The price is pretty unrealistic, though people do sell and buy similarly expensive items, like helicopter collectives/cyclics.

But I can't help being curious how it feels compared to the current "top dog" in FFB - the MSFFB2 :).

Forged
09-21-2012, 04:39 AM
Curiosity got the better of me, and I emailed them a couple times with questions. I also posted this over at simhq, but I thought I'd post it here too since there was a thread discussing the paccus hawk.

SO... they've shown extremely good communication, taking my questions seriously and giving full answers to them.

I spoke with Bart Sikkens via email.

(note - I'm not in any way affiliated with them, I just wanted some info, and thought I'd share it with you guys!)
Some of what they said (paraphrased by me):

They are currently creating their first batch of joysticks (paccus hawk), which is aimed at universities and institutes. They will have this batch done by the end of the year, after which they will work on updating the website. They plan on sending a few sticks out to get reviews (to universities and magazines). The target market for the hawk is not the simulation crowd - which explains its cost. It's mainly targeted for industrial use (though it could be used for flight simulation). There is no dead band or play in the motion of the stick and the movement is almost without friction. It does not have the "ratcheting" feel of the g940. It also has no center notch, though a "spring" function can be created using the force feedback. Helicopter pilots said it really felt like the real thing. The grip communicates with the base using a microprocessor, so it would be easy to add new functions/buttons to the grip, or switch out the grip altogether. They have the hawk, which is meant for desk mounted applications, but will also have a floor mounted option.

Some of their long term goals are to create high end quality sticks for simulation consumer products. These would not be priced like the g940, they would not be competing with that market - theirs would be much higher quality, and higher priced - but MUCH more reasonably priced then the paccus hawk. They would allow users to create custom grips with an easy way to interface it to the base (such as USB). They would possibly make their own grips (they've already experimented with an F16 replica) and eventually throttles/etc. These are long term goals, and it's really too early to give price estimates or time estimates.

If anyone wants I suppose I could post the actual email response - but this gets to the heart of the matter much faster :).

-Forged

VO101_MMaister
09-21-2012, 11:23 PM
Well, 1800USD is a lot. But if you take a look at the technology they put into this system, it is reasonable (not affordable). Precision, high pressure hydroulics with tiny motors, pumps, valves, cylinders, hoses, sealings and special electronics. Not cheap stuff I can tell you, especially when we are talking about development, prototyping and low production numbers, all made in the Netherland.

It is a very innovative FFb system, and I wish the best for Paccus, to reach their goals! If they really come up with a floor mounted version at a below 1000USD pricetag, then I willl sign up and risk that my wife will kill me! :)

5./JG27.Farber
09-22-2012, 12:37 AM
If they really come up with a floor mounted version at a below 1000USD pricetag, then I willl sign up and risk that my wife will kill me! :)

5./JG27 will send a Wreath........ :-P

VO101_MMaister
09-23-2012, 09:39 PM
5./JG27 will send a Wreath........ :-P

sounds good to me;)

Christop55her
09-24-2012, 01:51 AM
I wish my landgenoten all the best of luck and hopefully we will see some awsomeness soon

http://www.gqth.info/0.jpghttp://www.gqth.info/7.jpghttp://www.gqth.info/8.jpghttp://www.gqth.info/9.jpghttp://www.ymeu.info/test5.jpg

engadin
09-24-2012, 10:59 AM
Hi,

I have been following the Paccus FFB joystick story from the very beginning [http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=17887&highlight=paccus & http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/269792-Remember-the-Paccus-Hydraulic-FFB-joystick?] and, IMHO, I am afraid their 'long term' project means what it really looks like: a very looooong one. They have once faced the usually high wordwide patent and initial development costs and it looks it all has force them to totally decelerate the Hawk and Falcon promotional process in the web. Almost no items have been handed over to PC simulation mags for testing or the expected ads on these have shown up. Therefore, apart from their blog and the participation in some hardgamers fairs, only our comments in this and other forums is all you can find in the web or the real world.

Price is high, yes, quite high, [a high quality car is usually also very costly] but sure it deserves every single euro. And if Hawk delivers what it still promises, you have a joy for a lifetime. I guess they will deliver a durable quality at least equal or superior to CH products - also producer of industrial and professional joysticks - but equipped with FFB and better components (hall effect position sensors [no wear] instead of mechanical ones) apart from the hidraulic piping.

I must admit I once seriously thought about purchasing a Hawk - they invited me to visit their stand at the last London fair - to substitute my ageing MS Sidewinder FFB2. But I swear I was doubtful about spending such a huge ammount of money on a stick I could not test or even touch before emptying by wallet, and, important, coming from a newbie company in simulation HW like Paccus. Had I to fly to the fair in London or the Netherlands before to see how their FFB feels? was that the additional price to pay to get a decent substitute for the Sidewinder? Ouchhh!

Nevertheless, lets hope for the best not too far in time. ;)

AA_Engadin.