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View Full Version : Time ago I thought Baal was hard to kill... then I saw the power of the repair droid!


Lord Ludwig
02-12-2010, 08:21 PM
Sorry for starting a new topic but having deserted the forum for almost two months the old running topics are buried below a lot of new stuff.

When I got my hands on KBAP I immediately launched on a mage-impossible campaign confiding in my knowledge of KBtL. As I stated in a previous thread, all went well until K'Tahu and Baal, even if in the end, with a lot of patience and thanks to some useful suggestions, I completed the game. So I embarked on a replay aiming to do what the grandmasters of the game, like dobrev, do so often: a no-loss game.

I went warrior this time, and here is what I found out:

1) warrior is certainly a lot easier than mage;

2) lvl 60 is certainly possible (meanwhile it has been done, but back in 2009 there was still discussion going on);

3) (and this is the main point of my post) the unit that makes no-loss a no-brainer, IMHO, is the repair droid. By dividing them in two stacks you can auto-repair from almost nothing, without depending on mana. Of course you can throw in the guard droid stack to make things easier, but while two months ago I couldn't imagine how to beat Baal without losses, now I think the whole game can be done with just the repair droids and nothing else. Baal went down in 7 rounds, another 2 to mop up his summons...

4) obviously playing with only droids is not great fun, so I did some fights adding other units. A funny thing in my final score is that as the seventh most efficient unit the executioners are listed, while actually I never recruited a single one of them. But the demonologists liked to summon them.

Again, apologies to the people I bothered back then complaining about difficulties born only from my inadequate comprehension of the game and to the people I bother know with this topic.

Hento
02-12-2010, 10:23 PM
Like I said before, Black Dragons or Droids are mage's best friends for a no loss victory.

Lord Ludwig
02-12-2010, 10:40 PM
I don't know about the black dragons. On my first trial as a mage on impossible Baal shred them to pieces.

Hento
02-12-2010, 11:07 PM
Yes, in some boss battles dragons don't fit, but for everything else they are the best, especially item upgrading and suppression and Gremlion.

I think I also used them to beat huge stacks of Shamans with no losses, you know when they use their magic axes they actually instantly kill whole stack of droids.

Lord Ludwig
02-12-2010, 11:27 PM
True, but black dragons are quite unfit for a no-loss game. And since in my last game (as a warrior) I had, if I remember correctly, 1,174 repair droids divided in two stacks of 587 each losing 60-70 each round due to Baal or K'Tahu or Gremlion mass attack is no problem, they just replenish each other and you can always phantom in more if needed.

As for quickly dispatching gremlin towers when suppressing items, I like the archdemons, which - through demonologists - have the advantage you can actually resurrect them.

Zechnophobe
02-13-2010, 12:10 AM
I use black dragons in no-loss all the time. Secret? Don't let them die :). They are amazingly hardy.

Oh, but yeah, don't even get them near Ktahu or Baal. PFah, that's madness. Rest of the game though, fast and efficient no -lossers.

Metathron
02-13-2010, 01:19 AM
Just finished a normal mage game, and I used black dragons ever since I could lay my hands on the first one. Their immunity to magic is perfect for the mage, as it lets you concentrate on damaging the opponent and boosting your intellect - got it up to 63, woohoo! :grin:

Next up - either warrior or paladin on hard.

loreangelicus
02-13-2010, 01:27 AM
Ahhh... more discusions on solo unit tactics. :-) I, for one, prefer black knights or bone dragons since I play warrior that has a skill dedicated to undead.

Hento
02-13-2010, 01:22 PM
Ahhh... more discusions on solo unit tactics. :-) I, for one, prefer black knights or bone dragons since I play warrior that has a skill dedicated to undead.

It's actually quite unfair that the game gives such huge bonuses to undead faction since most people don't like undead, why don't humans have such bonuses?

loreangelicus
02-13-2010, 02:52 PM
It's actually quite unfair that the game gives such huge bonuses to undead faction since most people don't like undead, why don't humans have such bonuses?

I like undead. :grin: I thought they were the coolest units in KBTL, so it pained me to only use them sporadically in that game since there was no way to resurrect them (and I always play no-loss).

Humans get it from items, and fixed ones at that. You start the game with an artifact that gives humans +1 morale. Then there's the Inquisitor's Blade from a quest.

mcgriffin
02-13-2010, 03:59 PM
True, but black dragons are quite unfit for a no-loss game. And since in my last game (as a warrior) I had, if I remember correctly, 1,174 repair droids divided in two stacks of 587 each losing 60-70 each round due to Baal or K'Tahu or Gremlion mass attack is no problem, they just replenish each other and you can always phantom in more if needed.

As for quickly dispatching gremlin towers when suppressing items, I like the archdemons, which - through demonologists - have the advantage you can actually resurrect them.

How is it possible that you have 1174 repair droids? considering you use flaming eye +20% leadership and your royal hammer -15% leadership for dwarves, 1174 repair droids = 1174 * 80(1 - 15%) = 79832, your base leadership should be 79832 / (1+20%) = 66527!

WhYdOyOuThInKtHaThApPeNeD
02-13-2010, 04:37 PM
Cool, thanks for the info. I always thought the droids were the most useless waste of a units in the game. They could have done a lot better with the graphic/unit design for the droid units. They look like beer kegs with tiny little legs.

Lord Ludwig
02-13-2010, 04:56 PM
How is it possible that you have 1174 repair droids? considering you use flaming eye +20% leadership and your royal hammer -15% leadership for dwarves, 1174 repair droids = 1174 * 80(1 - 15%) = 79832, your base leadership should be 79832 / (1+20%) = 66527!

It were not 1174 but 1147, slight memory mistake there. Leadership with FE was 50,489. Besides the royal hammer I had also horn of King Borg (-10%, +5 AT) and engineer's badge (+2 IN and a juicy -20% leadership only for sroids).

Lord Ludwig
02-13-2010, 05:01 PM
Cool, thanks for the info. I always thought the droids were the most useless waste of a units in the game. They could have done a lot better with the graphic/unit design for the droid units. They look like beer kegs with tiny little legs.

Indeed, I didn't say they are the most exciting[I] unit to play, they just are functional. If you consider that elusive factor one could call "coolness" then archdemons, demonologists, dragons all trump the droids. Actually, aside maybe of peasants it's hard to imagine a [I]less glamorous unit. But still they rock... It was hell for me to beat Baal two months ago on my first play, took me at least 15 attempts with different strategies... to see him go down in 7 rounds against just droids is VERY satisfying :-)

DGDobrev
02-13-2010, 05:22 PM
I'd like to compliment you on the very innovative strategy. In this case, only repair droids can cut it easily, they don't even need guard droids to tank for them, because no enemy will manage to drop a single stack of those, and the other one will be able to repair the first one easily. Not to mention that you can even split them in even more stacks and compensate for the enemy numbers or attacks, even if most of the enemies inflict magic damage, to which the droids are most susceptible (even with some + magic def gear on).

As for the cool units, I'd add the Black Knights. Although their usefulness has been discussed plenty of times, having them kill an enemy and wait a bit till they start laughing at their slain enemies takes the cake in my opinion :)

Lord Ludwig
02-13-2010, 05:25 PM
I'd like to compliment you on the very innovative strategy. In this case, only repair droids can cut it easily, they don't even need guard droids to tank for them, because no enemy will manage to drop a single stack of those, and the other one will be able to repair the first one easily. Not to mention that you can even split them in even more stacks and compensate for the enemy numbers or attacks, even if most of the enemies inflict magic damage, to which the droids are most susceptible (even with some + magic def gear on).

As for the cool units, I'd add the Black Knights. Although their usefulness has been discussed plenty of times, having them kill an enemy and wait a bit till they start laughing at their slain enemies takes the cake in my opinion :)

Also the trolls are quite cool, shaking with laughter even when their ALLIES are slaughtered!

And thanks for the compliments, high praise...

Hento
02-13-2010, 06:39 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned but the full power of Droids comes with-

Axe of Ice, class 3--> +7 defense, level 1-3 dwarves freeze their enemies preventiing counter attack, 10% physical damage resistance to all dwarves

Repair Droid is a level 3 dwarf unit after all, and even Guard Droids would benefit.

P.S.
Droids definitely have the best animations, although I was a bit disappointed with the ranged attack of Repair Droids, I was expecting a bolt of lightning or laser, like from Beholders, that would be so cool.

loreangelicus
02-14-2010, 12:21 AM
I don't know if this has been mentioned but the full power of Droids comes with-

Axe of Ice, class 3--> +7 defense, level 1-3 dwarves freeze their enemies preventiing counter attack, 10% physical damage resistance to all dwarves

Repair Droid is a level 3 dwarf unit after all, and even Guard Droids would benefit.

P.S.
Droids definitely have the best animations, although I was a bit disappointed with the ranged attack of Repair Droids, I was expecting a bolt of lightning or laser, like from Beholders, that would be so cool.

Err.. The freeze effect might not be that useful considering that the level 3 repair droids are ranged units, and the guard droids are level 4. But you are correct, they still get +10% physical resistance.

Hento
02-14-2010, 11:04 AM
and +7 defense, and when Repair Droids "melee" attack they also shock.

loreangelicus
02-14-2010, 03:57 PM
and +7 defense, and when Repair Droids "melee" attack they also shock.

Currently playing warrior on impossible, going for no-loss high-score/7-day game.

Attached is a current screenshot of my soon-to-be undead-droid build. Here, I have taken the Debir-Scarlet-Bolo-Verona-Rusty-Scarlet route.

XP items are a must, so the 2 hand of necropolis and sharks tooth should be there no matter what. KBScanner shows me having memoirs of the marshal at Montero, so I already have the tough but necessary choice of dropping the amulet of death (it's either that, or I drop the soon-to-be skull of death).

Royal Hammer is a definite shoo-in, and I wouldn't mind dropping one of the soon-to-be dress of the magess for the engineer's badge (warrior has dress/regalia slot at top-right corner slot).

So the question now is, is the Axe of Ice (class 3) better than getting Staff of the Acolyte Necromancer (+4 INT, -15% leadership of undead)? With Black Helmet (+3 DEF, -20% leadership of undead) that would be -35% to the leadership of my target units, bone dragons and black knights (would drop the black dragon and red dragon).

Also, would Horn of King Borg (yes, KBScanner shows I have all 3 of the dwarf-droid items) be better for my build than the skull of death?

SIDE NOTE:

Despite the droids' vulnerability to magic, they are still no pushovers against an all-magic enemy. Case in point, I could actually upgrade my 2 novice dresses to dress of the magesses. My guard droid stack could take out a tower in 2-3 attacks, and the repair droids (of which I have less than my leadership due to lack of supply) do more damage to the towers than the black dragon. I did the upgrade without loss despite going against 4 evil gremlins and a bunch of archmages, priests and inquisitors. Postponed the upgrade when I found out that memoirs of the marshal was at Montero.

The only problem I see with them is that there is no way to replenish them except buying more of them, so your 2 reserve slots would always be filled up with extra droids (in preparation for an increase in leadership) if you choose to get both repair and guard droids.

DGDobrev
02-14-2010, 05:36 PM
Great minds think alike ;)

I'm going for something similar right now. It's a slow going, but it most certainly provides good results. However, problem is I don't have the Black Helmet available (but I have other useful items, like belt of luck, dagger of judgment, twinkling boots, etc.), so I guess I'll either still do Black Knights or go for Bone Dragons - or even both. We'll see.

As for the question, I think the horn will do nicely. +5 to droid's attack is pretty nice if you're bent on using the droids. The trouble is that it is an artifact and the warrior gets only 1 artifact slot unless she gets Agvares or Elenhel as companions, but still, it is a decent addition if you go the droid way. I'm considering taking Trigger with me (something I have never done) - he boosts the crit of all rangers, which includes the droids and has a gloves/belt slot, so I won't be missing out on the second necropolis gloves pair.

So many options and so many choices :) Certainly makes for a fun game.

Hento
02-14-2010, 06:58 PM
I have to start using that scanner you are all talking about, I miss all the stuff!

too bad the game is not more dynamic store-wise.

loreangelicus
02-14-2010, 07:11 PM
Great minds think alike ;)

I'm going for something similar right now. It's a slow going, but it most certainly provides good results. However, problem is I don't have the Black Helmet available (but I have other useful items, like belt of luck, dagger of judgment, twinkling boots, etc.), so I guess I'll either still do Black Knights or go for Bone Dragons - or even both. We'll see.

As for the question, I think the horn will do nicely. +5 to droid's attack is pretty nice if you're bent on using the droids. The trouble is that it is an artifact and the warrior gets only 1 artifact slot unless she gets Agvares or Elenhel as companions, but still, it is a decent addition if you go the droid way. I'm considering taking Trigger with me (something I have never done) - he boosts the crit of all rangers, which includes the droids and has a gloves/belt slot, so I won't be missing out on the second necropolis gloves pair.

So many options and so many choices :) Certainly makes for a fun game.

Warrior should get Elenhel, and mage should get Trigger so that the companion item slots complements the hero slots. This is for an undead-droid army though, other builds may demand other companions.

Yes, I'm certainly looking forward to mid to late game, when my army and items get completed. :grin: As you can see in the screenshot I attached before, I got very early Elenhel via intelligence boost items and Depth of Thought. I also got the 2 Hand of Necropolis as early as my initial visit of Verona (shipwreck and a very tough battle of Castle Tront).

Speaking of the undead-droid build, I think adding a non-undead/droid unit could give it more flexibility. Adding emerald green dragon adds a high initiative, high movement tank via Phantom level 3; the phantom recovers the 25 mana spent for it by landing in the middle of the enemy and doing the mana blast ability. It would be a bit hard to resurrect if it incurs casualties though, since Turn Back Time is your only solution (Distortion level 3, but all classes go for this anyways), but the original EGD stack doesn't do battle anyways, and you would spam Phantom till the enemy is dominated, giving you 3 extra scapegoat units to tank. Another alternative is Royal Griffins. Transmute level 3 gives you 10 mana per enemy that dies, but more importantly gives you 20 mana per ally that dies. So you could actually spam Phantom level 1 (at 15 mana) so that your summons are relatively weak (guarantees that the phantomed royal griffin dies and not expires) and the resulting two summons (phantom royal griffin and its heavely guard) gives you back 40 mana total, a net gain of 25 mana. RG needs Resurrect level 3 though, and thus Order level 3 which I was hoping to skip.

But if you do get either EGDs or RGs, what do you drop? :grin: Bone Dragons or Guard Droids?:rolleyes: sigh... RGs add high magic resistance, EGDs add good magic resistance and high fire resistance, and these resistances are what the undead-droid army lack. Then again, who needs resistances when you could easily bring back your losses? Sigh... even more decisions.

I just want to build the ultimate killer army. I know black knights, bone dragons and even repair droids could solo the enemies and even bosses, but if I wanted solo tactics I would have played mage. Overkill perhaps, but doesn't everyone like to overkill? :grin:

This build is good for PvP as well, if ever that gets added in. :)

Hento
02-14-2010, 07:14 PM
Eh, don't you have to have an impossibly high intellect for a warrior to get Elenhel?

EDIT:Oh, I see, you used a scroll, but that was a fluke.

DGDobrev
02-14-2010, 07:21 PM
You only need 10 points. Since you'll want to get the highest level possible, it's best to utilize the learning skill ASAP. That +3 Int. +1 int from linguistics, +1 int from Scouting. That's 5. Depth of Thought is +10 for 2 battles, but it does count towards tyou current stats, so that's +15. All you need is a few extra skills or a few items and voila, you have Elenhel.

loreangelicus
02-14-2010, 07:27 PM
I have to start using that scanner you are all talking about, I miss all the stuff!

too bad the game is not more dynamic store-wise.

For a "just for fun" run, the KBScanner is not essential. But for a game that targets a high score? Ancient Knowledge is VITAL, and you need to make sure you at least have 3 of them via the KBScanner.

I know, items and units are too random for my liking, but I guess it adds some fun factor in its own way. In my game, I don't have any Demonologists at all, and the wanderer scrolls can't generate them. Sad that I don't get to experiment with them in this run, but I did get 2 hand of necropolis and amulet of death at Verona, twinkling boots at Bolo, and skull of pain and slippery cuirass at rusty, so its all good randomness overall.

Zechnophobe
02-14-2010, 08:30 PM
I think the gripe about the scanner, is that it rather diminishes the value of your high score. Sure you did well, but you kinda rigged things in your favor a bit, know what I mean?

However, if you are just doing it for the sake of seeing how high you can possibly get a score, that's different. The goal here is not to show off how well you did, but just to explore the possibilities.

Anyhow, just my two peasants worth.

Hento
02-14-2010, 09:08 PM
Peasants are actually quite useful and deadly if you have damage dealing items like +1 poison and fire and high morale.

loreangelicus
02-14-2010, 09:25 PM
I think the gripe about the scanner, is that it rather diminishes the value of your high score. Sure you did well, but you kinda rigged things in your favor a bit, know what I mean?

However, if you are just doing it for the sake of seeing how high you can possibly get a score, that's different. The goal here is not to show off how well you did, but just to explore the possibilities.

Anyhow, just my two peasants worth.

The problem with the high score is that it is unachievable if you don't get enough Ancient Knowledge scrolls. I actually hate the fact that KBAP NEEDS AKs to get to level 60. In KBTL everyone could reach level 30, so the max possible level was within reach by everyone and you didn't need to "rig" the game.

I know you are "rigging" the game to your favor by using the KBScanner to assure 3+ AKs, but if you are going for a high score, would you actually do a random game, do the long process of going no-loss, engage tough battles just to bring down your time to around 7-days, and if by mid to late game you don't have AKs enough to reach level 60 just start a new game? :grin:

It should also be noted that 3 AKs is not even enough. As per other players who have already achieved level 60, you need around 5-6 AKs. You probably need even more since you can't go around killing the low XP enemies, then kill 5 high XP enemies with a single AK; not using an optimal path would waste time, which could lower your score.