Does the 109E have armor?

[zander]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

In addition, multiple .303 hits on the same section of armour plate will penetrate, and when you have 8 guns firing, it doesn't take long.

"IF" you hit the the same spot twice - only that's not gonna happen irl, especially if you consider the firing window you have.
Conclusion:
If you can't penetrate the armor with your first bullet you never will.
Try to hit another weak spot and your golden.

[lonewulf]

Interesting thread. What I'd like to know is whether the armour penetrating qualities of 20 mm cannon rounds are actually modelled in the sim.

As I understand it, even 20 mm ball rounds should be able to defeat most of the armour plating installed in 1940 vintage fighter, if the range is kept relatively short. That's hardly surprising when you consider that, at this time, the head plate would more often than not be less than 10 mm thick and your average 20 mm 'AP round' would penetrate twice that thickness with ease.

I raise this issue because in my (admittedly limited experience), even concentrated strikes on the dead six position of an allied fighter from a cannon armed 109 is unlikely to result in a pilot kill.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by zander

"IF" you hit the the same spot twice - only that's not gonna happen irl, especially if you consider the firing window you have.
Conclusion:
If you can't penetrate the armor with your first bullet you never will.
Try to hit another weak spot and your golden.

Anytime you hit a section of piece of steel with the force of a bullet, you are weakening the whole piece. The force of the bullet is transmitted through the entire structure, stretching and warping it. The next bullet which hits, strikes a weakened structure.

And to suggest only one bullet could hit a seat rear in a single burst is inaccurate, I have read a number of accounts of surviving pilots coming back with multiple hits on their armoured seat back and with it cracked and warped.

[Kurfürst]

Well until you will have a NASTRAN level material engineering code in Il-2 this is rather theoretical (as it is in real life IMO) so we will have simplified model where the armor plate will be good as new any time it is hit... so can we just skip it and get back to the point?

Does the Il-2 Bf 109E armor modelled or not?

[Kurfürst]

A few reports on shot down 109E inspected by the British on the ground.


A.I.2.(g) Report No. 4/53 ñ 1940

Me 109. Crashed 30.09.40 at 17.00 hours, at Queens Anne's Gate, Windsor Great Park. Markings: 9 painted on yellow engine cowling. Spinner white with black circle on tip. Old markings had been painted out, viz. PH + LV. Airframe built by Arado, 29.06.40,. No. 109.4851. Engine DB601. Following fighter action aircraft forced landed and turned over. There are a number of bullet strikes from astern.

Armament: x 2 MG 17 in wings and x 2 under engine cowling. Armour: Standard cross bulkhead and head protection for the pilot.


A.I.2.(g) Report No. 4/54 ñ 1940

Me 109. Crashed on 30.09.40 at 16.50 hours at Sydling St. Nicholas, near Cerne Abbas. Map ref:U0821.
Markings not decipherable. Engine DB601. Following fighter action aircraft dived into the ground and burnt out. Pilot baled out, but was killed owing to parachute failure. Armament: x 2 MG 17 in wings and two under engine cowling traced. Armour: Standard cross bulkhead was found only.


AIR 22/266

Me 109. Crashed on 31.08.40 at Jubilee Farm, Ulcombe. Identification markings 10 + I, black Gothic S on white shield. Fuselage built by ERLA Werke Nr. 62914. Cause of crash, fighter action, condition fair. Aircraft made good landing, wheels up. Armament: 20 mm shell guns in wings and x 2 MG 17 machine guns under engine cowling.
Armour usual bulkhead, pilots head protected by shield. Crew 1, prisoner. Camouflaged green upper surfaces, light blue underneath. In good condition, suitable for exhibition purposes.
The DB601 engine is reported to have had the number 11366/211002a.


Type: Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4 Werke/Nr. 1325

A.I 1(g) Report No. 3/67 states:

Crashed on 30.09.40 at Langney, near Eastbourne. Map ref: R.0820. Markings 13 + (figures in yellow). Orange nose, rudder and fin. Engine DB601A, No.63509, made by Daimler Benz at Genshagen, Toltow.
Armament: 2 x 20mm cannons and 2 MG 17. Armour: normal cross bulkhead, and panel behind pilots head. Following fighter action, aircraft forced landed. A few .303 strikes in cooling system and engine. Pilot prisoner.


A.I.2.(g) Report 1940

Me 109. Forced landed at Love's Farm, Marden, Kent on 05.09.40. Markings < + - black, outlines in white. Crest: Shield U-shaped, outlined in red, divided into 8 segments coloured black and white. Wing tip and rudder painted white, camouflage all blue, fuselage all blue. Spinner divided into alternate black and white sectors. Fitted with Bd601A engine made by Mercedes Benz Erke Nr.10598. Aircraft forced landed following fighter action. Condition reported to be very good. Standard armament x 2 20 mm cannon and x 2 MG 17 machine guns. No head armour.. Starboard wing shows many .303 strikes.

[senseispcc]

.
If you are all talking about this (see picture) then it was installed on some E4 but some pilots asked to remove it becaue it did restict their view.

And it is never a perfect protection against a hit from nearly behind or from the front! stupid is it not?

[macro]

I read once that the 109 did have pilot protection armour. Only reasoni do remember is that some pilots removed the head protection plate as it prevented rear view and that at later date thiswas changed to bullet proof glass behind the pilots head due to this reason

[senseispcc]

Originally Posted by macro

I read once that the 109 did have pilot protection armour. Only reasoni do remember is that some pilots removed the head protection plate as it prevented rear view and that at later date thiswas changed to bullet proof glass behind the pilots head due to this reason

Very late in WWII Me 109 were fitted with plexiglass in the 1940 only the BF109 E4 even if some early version were retro fitted.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

A few reports on shot down 109E inspected by the British on the ground.


A.I.2.(g) Report No. 4/53 ñ 1940

Me 109. Crashed 30.09.40 at 17.00 hours, at Queens Anne's Gate, Windsor Great Park. Markings: 9 painted on yellow engine cowling. Spinner white with black circle on tip. Old markings had been painted out, viz. PH + LV. Airframe built by Arado, 29.06.40,. No. 109.4851. Engine DB601. Following fighter action aircraft forced landed and turned over. There are a number of bullet strikes from astern.

Armament: x 2 MG 17 in wings and x 2 under engine cowling. Armour: Standard cross bulkhead and head protection for the pilot.


A.I.2.(g) Report No. 4/54 ñ 1940

Me 109. Crashed on 30.09.40 at 16.50 hours at Sydling St. Nicholas, near Cerne Abbas. Map ref:U0821.
Markings not decipherable. Engine DB601. Following fighter action aircraft dived into the ground and burnt out. Pilot baled out, but was killed owing to parachute failure. Armament: x 2 MG 17 in wings and two under engine cowling traced. Armour: Standard cross bulkhead was found only.


AIR 22/266

Me 109. Crashed on 31.08.40 at Jubilee Farm, Ulcombe. Identification markings 10 + I, black Gothic S on white shield. Fuselage built by ERLA Werke Nr. 62914. Cause of crash, fighter action, condition fair. Aircraft made good landing, wheels up. Armament: 20 mm shell guns in wings and x 2 MG 17 machine guns under engine cowling.
Armour usual bulkhead, pilots head protected by shield. Crew 1, prisoner. Camouflaged green upper surfaces, light blue underneath. In good condition, suitable for exhibition purposes.
The DB601 engine is reported to have had the number 11366/211002a.


Type: Messerschmitt Bf 109E-4 Werke/Nr. 1325

A.I 1(g) Report No. 3/67 states:

Crashed on 30.09.40 at Langney, near Eastbourne. Map ref: R.0820. Markings 13 + (figures in yellow). Orange nose, rudder and fin. Engine DB601A, No.63509, made by Daimler Benz at Genshagen, Toltow.
Armament: 2 x 20mm cannons and 2 MG 17. Armour: normal cross bulkhead, and panel behind pilots head. Following fighter action, aircraft forced landed. A few .303 strikes in cooling system and engine. Pilot prisoner.


A.I.2.(g) Report 1940

Me 109. Forced landed at Love's Farm, Marden, Kent on 05.09.40. Markings < + - black, outlines in white. Crest: Shield U-shaped, outlined in red, divided into 8 segments coloured black and white. Wing tip and rudder painted white, camouflage all blue, fuselage all blue. Spinner divided into alternate black and white sectors. Fitted with Bd601A engine made by Mercedes Benz Erke Nr.10598. Aircraft forced landed following fighter action. Condition reported to be very good. Standard armament x 2 20 mm cannon and x 2 MG 17 machine guns. No head armour.. Starboard wing shows many .303 strikes.

Well these records are a pretty clear indication most 109E's during the BoB were equipped with armour although some may not have had the headrest.

[zander]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Anytime you hit a section of piece of steel with the force of a bullet, you are weakening the whole piece. The force of the bullet is transmitted through the entire structure, stretching and warping it. The next bullet which hits, strikes a weakened structure.

And to suggest only one bullet could hit a seat rear in a single burst is inaccurate, I have read a number of accounts of surviving pilots coming back with multiple hits on their armoured seat back and with it cracked and warped.

Buddy, I have lots of guns and tried that - it only works with concrete where the material chips off.
If you where right you could penetrate a tank if you had the time - that may even work, only under lab conditions tho'.

Fire real bullets into real steel, then come back and report.