Does the 109E have armor?

[Osprey]

If not it should have but tbh PK's on the 109 certainly used to be a novelty unless you got a shot in from 4 or 8 o'clock. High angle deflection from above into the canopy rarely bagged a PK, never understood why they did so little. All very strange when compared against the frequent PK's from the 2 .30cals on the 109 nose which occurred. I had expected the 8 guns to get lots of PK's so I'm actually pleased this seems to have changed.

[Glider]

From books that I have read in particular Fledging Eagles (Christopher Shores) the 109E didn't have pilot armor at the start of the war. But it was added during the battle of France in a similar manner to the RAF Hurricanes.
Both airforces as interim unauthorised field mods used armour taken from wrecked / disabled french fighters and the Luftwaffe did the same for the Ju87. Both sides had similar problems getting official permission but it was of course soon given and included in new production.
By th BOB it was standard to both German and British fighters

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by glider

from books that i have read in particular fledging eagles (christopher shores) the 109e didn't have pilot armor at the start of the war. But it was added during the battle of france in a similar manner to the raf hurricanes.
Both airforces as interim unauthorised field mods used armour taken from wrecked / disabled french fighters and the luftwaffe did the same for the ju87. Both sides had similar problems getting official permission but it was of course soon given and included in new production.
By th bob it was standard to both german and british fighters

pilot plates! Pilot plates! Pilot plates! :-p

[notafinger!]

I see no evidence that CloD 109s have any armor plating. Certainly not behind the pilot & fuel tank. However, I do not think armor would defeat rifle caliber hits at very close range. Also, I believe that AP ammunition in game is far too effective. In reality AP ammo performed quity poorly in rifle caliber.

[AKA Knut]

Originally Posted by notafinger!

I see no evidence that CloD 109s have any armor plating. Certainly not behind the pilot & fuel tank. However, I do not think armor would defeat rifle caliber hits at very close range. Also, I believe that AP ammunition in game is far too effective. In reality AP ammo performed quity poorly in rifle caliber.

IRL .30 cal AP penetration is quite impressive, even .30 cal ball ammo easily penetrates pretty thick steel plate. I suspect for air-to-air, over penetration may have been a problem, unless something critical is hit like the pilot (or his "armored" back rest), engine block, control cables, etc. Otherwise rifle bullets are just punching neat little holes in the structure.

~S~

AKA Knutsac

[vranac]

Look at 10.10

[notafinger!]

Originally Posted by AKA Knut

IRL .30 cal AP penetration is quite impressive, even .30 cal ball ammo easily penetrates pretty thick steel plate. I suspect for air-to-air, over penetration may have been a problem, unless something critical is hit like the pilot (or his "armored" back rest), engine block, control cables, etc. Otherwise rifle bullets are just punching neat little holes in the structure.

~S~

AKA Knutsac

What are you basing this on? American .30 is not the same as British .303. Problem is in reality armor plating is rarely the first thing the bullet hits. See the following from: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BoB.htm

Tests by the RAF indicated that both the .303 and 7.92mm AP bullets had some problems penetrating the structure of the relatively small and light Blenheim bomber. Both guns were fired at a range of 200 yards (180m) through the rear fuselage at the 4 mm armour plate protecting the rear gunner, which was angled at 60º to the line of fire. The results were poor; only 33% of the .303" rounds reached the armour (the rest being deflected or absorbed by the structure) and 6% penetrated it. In contrast,only 23% of the 7.92 mm bullets reached the armour, and just 1% penetrated.

[AKA Knut]

Originally Posted by notafinger!

What are you basing this on? American .30 is not the same as British .303. Problem is in reality armor plating is rarely the first thing the bullet hits. See the following from: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BoB.htm

Based mostly on goofing around shooting M2 .30 cal ball (AKA .30-06) and .303 Brit, which have very similar (negligible differences?) ballistic characteristics.

Seems if true armor plate was used (vice improvised plate steel), and/or the bullet hits at an angle (vice 90 degrees), then I guess penetration would be limited. But when I think of aircraft construction, I think of aluminum, which I imagine any .30 rifle bullet would penetrate with little loss of energy. I find it notable that at 200 yards 6% of .303 AP penetrated the 60 degree angled armor. What percentage of the rounds reaching the armor were stopped by it? The report also doesn't address the ultimate fate of the AP rounds that where deflected by the aircraft structure and missed the target armor plate. I assume many continued on to penetrate other portions of the aircraft?

~S~

AKA Knutsac

[David198502]

Originally Posted by Osprey

If not it should have but tbh PK's on the 109 certainly used to be a novelty unless you got a shot in from 4 or 8 o'clock. High angle deflection from above into the canopy rarely bagged a PK, never understood why they did so little. All very strange when compared against the frequent PK's from the 2 .30cals on the 109 nose which occurred. I had expected the 8 guns to get lots of PK's so I'm actually pleased this seems to have changed.

Osprey....i suggest that you fly again more often and shoot again at 109s....now at least, a pilot kill is very easy and if you dont kill him directly, then the flames will do if he doesnt bail quick enough...

[trademe900]

Very pleased to see this changed.

It was quite stupid before how the 2x 7.92 so easily killed pilots and the raf EIGHT high rpm .303 could barely ever kill a pilot. A lot more believable now.

This along with the bomber fuel tanks blowing off wings fix have made this patch a lot better than it could have been.