British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

I flew it before the patch and shot down 3 reds. It was so slow they could not stay behind me and I went even slower... They stalled

Lol I said 'good Spitfire pilots'

[notafinger!]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Hmmm some people want accurate flight models and others want "balanced" FM's... this is interesting.

I'd also like to see the correct roll rates and other things.

Because who is to say when absolute accuracy is achieved? So many sources all claiming differrent things & pilot accounts are terribly biased. However, from the data we can see some general characteristics emerge when the a/c are compared (i.e. Hurricane turning superiority, 109 dive acceleration, Spitfire/109 speed advantage at certain alts etc..). If the devs were to focus on getting the general characteristics of each type correct it would both feel historically accurate & have some balance. BoB is a very unique battle and those who have researched it would see there is near parity between forces, the Spitfire & 109 being a very close match with the Hurricane a not too distant third. Anyway, I think we can all agree the status quo of trying to get things right to the last mph while other major FM errors persist is not working.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by notafinger!

Because who is to say when absolute accuracy is achieved? So many sources all claiming differrent things & pilot accounts are terribly biased. However, from the data we can see some general characteristics emerge when the a/c are compared (i.e. Hurricane turning superiority, 109 dive acceleration, Spitfire/109 speed advantage at certain alts etc..). If the devs were to focus on getting the general characteristics of each type correct it would both feel historically accurate & have some balance. BoB is a very unique battle and those who have researched it would see there is near parity between forces, the Spitfire & 109 being a very close match with the Hurricane a not too distant third. Anyway, I think we can all agree the status quo of trying to get things right to the last mph while other major FM errors persist is not working.

...again, +1 mate!

[ATAG_Snapper]

Well, the Red FM's may be porked way beyond the pale, but let's look at the bright side of life: the negative g cutout on the Spits is fixed!!!!

And....possible bonus.....radiator air resistance may be modelled now. Just a rumour, mind you, no mention of it in the rather slim readme notes.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

And....possible bonus.....radiator air resistance may be modelled now. Just a rumour, mind you, no mention of it in the rather slim readme notes.

As it happens, I've also come across a yaw trim issue with canopy open at altitude. But it might've been me. Canopy open now causing drag? Could be.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

And....possible bonus.....radiator air resistance may be modelled now. Just a rumour, mind you, no mention of it in the rather slim readme notes.

It definitely was in 1.07, now in 1.08 it seems to be gone again

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by notafinger!

Because who is to say when absolute accuracy is achieved? So many sources all claiming differrent things & pilot accounts are terribly biased. However, from the data we can see some general characteristics emerge when the a/c are compared (i.e. Hurricane turning superiority, 109 dive acceleration, Spitfire/109 speed advantage at certain alts etc..). If the devs were to focus on getting the general characteristics of each type correct it would both feel historically accurate & have some balance. BoB is a very unique battle and those who have researched it would see there is near parity between forces, the Spitfire & 109 being a very close match with the Hurricane a not too distant third. Anyway, I think we can all agree the status quo of trying to get things right to the last mph while other major FM errors persist is not working.

Good quote. Bears repeating.

I have a lot of respect for the 109 and the players who pilot them. I guarantee if there's a weapon in your aircraft's arsenal, and you know how to use it, you use it. They have nothing to be ashamed or repentant of in using the aircraft they've been given to the full extent of their ability to use it.

That said, I also have a lot of respect for the Spitfire and Hurricane pilots. Night after night they go back up in the air and attempt to make the best of their aircraft in the face of, let's face it, not the best of odds. That's kind of in the spirit of the Battle of Britain, I'd say. The people who are flying these aircraft are more than likely people who love these aircraft, who have a deep affection and reverence for the people who fought the real Battle, and who desperately want to be able to touch a small part of that experience.

I think it's in everyone's best interests to have a FM that 'feels' right first and gets as close as possible to the real numbers second. That's not a formula of exclusivity. It's a weighting. When you can read an account of a real pilot, try the same manoeuver, and get roughly the result you expect to get, that's 'feel'. We don't have that yet, but I'd like to get there.

Lastly, I don't doubt that getting all these figures right in a complex simulation is not an easy job. You mess with one thing and something you never thought was connected gets thrown off. Hurricane start-up anyone? I hope that the people who have to work on the FM are getting the support and time they need.

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Robo.

I agree the 109 wings are too fragile when being hit by another 109 cannon and Spitfire wing is made too strong on the other hand.

Escaping red on your six? Easy. Keep flying straight and / or start shallow climb. Depending on how fast he is in the first place, obviously.. Or just neg-G and dive, then climb. He won't follow you if he's good and he will get you eventually but that's the way it is in combat when you have good pilot on your six. Spiral climb works prety well, too. It is possible to get out of very disadvantageous situations just by using the 109 abilities (and yours of course) simply due to the performance gap between 109 and RAF fighters. This is historicaly based, so fair enough, except for the gap not being that big. I hope you see what I am trying to say here.

You can do this in game - at certain speeds, or if the Spitfire pilot is not so good and you are. You can outturn a Hurrican no matter how good he is.

well, that's exactly the problem: the wings are the biggest target when deflection shooting, which is almost 100% the case in dogfighting against decent pilots. make one plane's wings pop-off even when only lightly touched, and make the other plane's wings resits to a meteorite fall.. and there you go.. a balanced fight

as for the rest.. may I laugh a little?
- flying straight/shallow climb -> the spits will get closer to you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G and dive -> the spits will outdive you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G, dive and roll -> guess what? read above..
- spiral climb -> need I quote again from the first point above? guess not..

and remember, everything of the above with planes having approximately same energy. if the spit has more, then you'd better say your prayer..

and these were supposed to be 109's "hardware" strongest points.. if you'll go into a turn fight with a spit, then you deserve your funerary stele.

yet, I'm not the best blue pilot around, and my viewpoint might be slightly biased.

that's why I would only support historical data FM changes backed up by pilots constantly flying on both sides, or by the pilots from the other side (reds supporting blue FM changes, and viceversa).

and in the end, it is not about the machines, as it is about the people who flew them. the better pilot would win more often, no matter how crappy is the machine he's flying on

[Talisman]

Originally Posted by adonys

well, that's exactly the problem: the wings are the biggest target when deflection shooting, which is almost 100% the case in dogfighting against decent pilots. make one plane's wings pop-off even when only lightly touched, and make the other plane's wings resits to a meteorite fall.. and there you go.. a balanced fight

as for the rest.. may I laugh a little?
- flying straight/shallow climb -> the spits will get closer to you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G and dive -> the spits will outdive you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G, dive and roll -> guess what? read above..
- spiral climb -> need I quote again from the first point above? guess not..

and remember, everything of the above with planes having approximately same energy. if the spit has more, then you'd better say your prayer..

and these were supposed to be 109's "hardware" strongest points.. if you'll go into a turn fight with a spit, then you deserve your funerary stele.

yet, I'm not the best blue pilot around, and my viewpoint might be slightly biased.

that's why I would only support historical data FM changes backed up by pilots constantly flying on both sides, or by the pilots from the other side (reds supporting blue FM changes, and viceversa).

and in the end, it is not about the machines, as it is about the people who flew them. the better pilot would win more often, no matter how crappy is the machine he's flying on

About the fragile 109 wing comment (at risk of being off topic). The 109 is a small plane (difficult to hit in the first place as a small target) with a small wing, so perhaps it is logical that ammunition hits on the Me 109 wing are more likely to cause serious damage than hits on a larger aircraft wing, such as the Spitfire. Just a thought.

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by adonys

as for the rest.. may I laugh a little?
- flying straight/shallow climb -> the spits will get closer to you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G and dive -> the spits will outdive you before you'll finish to say "bummer!"
- neg-G, dive and roll -> guess what? read above..
- spiral climb -> need I quote again from the first point above? guess not..

and remember, everything of the above with planes having approximately same energy. if the spit has more, then you'd better say your prayer..

I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that the Spitfire can actually do these things? I would like to congratulate you for teaching all the red pilots how to handle the Spitfire within a few goes at it because for the past year clearly everybody else has been doing it wrong. I'm mightily relieved that it's been my inadequacies all along and nothing to do with the FM itself. Thank you so much for teaching us all a lesson!!!

1C, please take note and scrap any idea of making edits in the Bugtracker, we don't need a new patch after all because adonys has shown us that we're just rubbish pilots.