British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by adonys

it's funny how you reds are continuously whining about red FMs..

should we start to cry about how we are outclimbed, no matter our energy state, by the red aircrafts? that we can also be outdived, outrolled and outspeeded? that negative Gs are not affecting you as much as it should? that our aircraft seem to be made from paper? that every historical way to escape red on your six is not working?

Hi Adonys, just as you say, you can make complaints about the Bf 109 flight models, there is lots of things that are wrong. But the ones you mention are clearly not among them I am afraid:

- outclimbed, outspeeded and outrolled by the RAF? Probably not Unless you are doing something seriously wrong.

- neg G has been fixed and reading the reports it seems that they're finally based on RL values. It was way too harsh in the previous patches. It is stil affecting the red fighters.

- Bf 109 made of paper - depends, sometimes you can get lucky and make him B/O with short burst, sometimes you hit him with loooong one and he keeps going and outruns /outclimbs you with no problem. I've been shot at by 109s I shot down in flames, but that goes for both sides I guess. I agree the 109 wings are too fragile when being hit by another 109 cannon and Spitfire wing is made too strong on the other hand.

Escaping red on your six? Easy. Keep flying straight and / or start shallow climb. Depending on how fast he is in the first place, obviously.. Or just neg-G and dive, then climb. He won't follow you if he's good and he will get you eventually but that's the way it is in combat when you have good pilot on your six. Spiral climb works prety well, too. It is possible to get out of very disadvantageous situations just by using the 109 abilities (and yours of course) simply due to the performance gap between 109 and RAF fighters. This is historicaly based, so fair enough, except for the gap not being that big. I hope you see what I am trying to say here.

Originally Posted by adonys

not to mention the controversial ones.. like many 109 pilots saying that they could actually outturn spits in turning fights.. you are aware that those slats are not in there for nothing, right?!!

You can do this in game - at certain speeds, or if the Spitfire pilot is not so good and you are. You can outturn a Hurrican no matter how good he is.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Robo.

This is historicaly based, so fair enough, except for the gap not being that big. I hope you see what I am trying to say here.

Quoted for emphasis. Historical imbalances should be modeled.

Originally Posted by adonys

should we start to cry about how we are outclimbed, no matter our energy state, by the red aircrafts? that we can also be outdived, outrolled and outspeeded? that negative Gs are not affecting you as much as it should? that our aircraft seem to be made from paper? that every historical way to escape red on your six is not working?

Spitfire 2a was heavily nerfed in recent patches. It's not an I-Win button any more, like it used to be a few patches ago.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Quoted for emphasis. Historical imbalances should be modeled.

Definitely, I have no problem with that at all. I actually chose to fly for the RAF because flying inferior planes is more of a challenge.

What I do have problem with is the status of the FMs for they do not reflect the so called reality at all. The perfiormance gap was nowhere close to what we have got in the sim in 1.08. Yes, there are some improvements throughout the current betas with some random changes (especially for the RAF as there are 2 new versions) and the changes are in good direction. But new issues with mixture, overheating and general performance are spoiling the fun for the RAF, hence this thread.

And what I don't understand is that there are people who never actually fly these planes (probably never even tried to use them in proper combat) and all they are gonna tell you is yeah yeah whatever, but the 109 is also 50km/h slower.

[Boandlgramer]

Originally Posted by Robo.

And what I don't understand is that there are people who never actually fly these planes (probably never even tried to use them in proper combat) and all they are gonna tell you is yeah yeah whatever, but the 109 is also 50km/h slower.

I like the famous british humor

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Robo.

and all they are gonna tell you is yeah yeah whatever, but the 109 is also 50km/h slower.

People get defensive because there's an attitude on this forum that says that Axis pilots are just no-skill newbies who can only win because they have super planes. A lot of us are sick of it.

Who are these people going to fly their beloved spitfires against if all the axis pilots leave, which is seemingly what they want?

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

People get defensive because there's an attitude on this forum that says that Axis pilots are just no-skill newbies who can only win because they have super planes. A lot of us are sick of it.

I haven't noticed this kind of attitude to be honest, all I know is that most of Axis pilots I know are very very good and they know what they're doing because they are usually flying more systematically and disciplined. I have many friends among what you call Axis pilots, I also fly the 109 very often myself and I know what it is capable of in good hands. I have great respect for every experienced virtual pilot and the truth is that there is lots of people like that, simply because many guys are flying sims for God knows how many years and they know how to fly and how to shoot. It is also quite obvious that Blue has got the better aircrafts at the moment and unless you're pushing your luck you won't get touched by the RAF if you do things right...

There are also many new pilots just learning how to fly, which is great as the community is growing and they also learn fast (no matter what they fly), so in the end it's quite difficult to find a 109 that doesn't know what to do on full real servers. Almost everybody is good enough to be a threat, especially so in the 109. So I don't quite understand where you're coming from with this 'no-skills newbies' stuff. Some of the best pilots I know are 109 jockeys, the reason being probably that once you're good you want a good ride, too.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Robo.

It is also quite obvious that Blue has got the better aircrafts at the moment and unless you're pushing your luck you won't get touched by the RAF if you do things right...

Okay, but if nobody flew the 109 because it's "untouchable" then who would the Allied guys fly against? AI?

Like it or not, Allied pilots need people to fly the 109 otherwise the online scene would collapse. Someone has to be the bad guy, but constantly being taunted gets old pretty fast. They just complain, complain, complain. Well, what are we supposed to do about it? Fly to Moscow and fix the flight models? Axis pilots are just as powerless as Allied pilots when it comes to getting the game fixed, but we're somehow on the receiving end of a lot of hate.

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

Robo,

I think what Doggles was talking about was that most reds blame the aircraft fro not being up to scratch and consider flying a 109 "easy".

I have been on the recieving end of comments like "you only shot me down because the flight models porked!". - when the guy didnt even see me comming

Yep, this is what I meant.

I've lost count of the number of times I spot a spitfire below me flying in a nice straight line and dive on him. I throttle down all the way to idle, because lots of cheaters fly around with their canopies open/jettisoned so that they can hear aircraft 500m behind them I wait until I get to convergence and then open fire with all guns. He bails out and instead of "S~ Nice bounce" it's always something like "109 is a joke" or "fight like a man".

Sour grapes.

[JtD]

And how often have you lately succeeded in bouncing a 109 while in a Spitfire, sending it down in flames? And what words did you get when you did that?

Personally, I find weak opponents more annoying than strong ones, so if the poll question was "is the poor performance of RAF fighters killing the fun for Axis fighter pilots", I'd probably vote yes. But then, all this is secondary to my preference of historically correct performance, leaving the whole fun and balance issue to the mission maker.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Okay, but if nobody flew the 109 because it's "untouchable" then who would the Allied guys fly against? AI?

Well but no one is saying the 109 pilots should stop flying this sim because their ride is too good

The point I was trying to make was that every reasonable Axis pilot should be able to see and understand the frustration of the RAF pilots at current state of the FMs (which have nothing to do with Battle of Britain and so called real-life specs and for one reason or another are in huge favour of the Axis at the moment).

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I've lost count of the number of times I spot a spitfire below me flying in a nice straight line and dive on him. I throttle down all the way to idle, because lots of cheaters fly around with their canopies open/jettisoned so that they can hear aircraft 500m behind them I wait until I get to convergence and then open fire with all guns. He bails out and instead of "S~ Nice bounce" it's always something like "109 is a joke" or "fight like a man".

You have this sort of people on both sides, I suggest you simply ignore them. Sour grapes as you say...

I'd be careful with calling the ppl with open canopies 'cheaters', not all of them enjoy the sonar capabilities... Same goes for the 109 - some folks jettison the canopy as they take off, very interesting.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Actually, in the recent beta, it's a very nice and enjoyable plane. I personally like it a lot.

If you want to feel the frustration of the RAF lot, swap your 109 for a G.50 and fly 1 on 1 against some good Spitfire pilot (just joking of course)

I flew it before the patch and shot down 3 reds. It was so slow they could not stay behind me and I went even slower... They stalled







Hmmm some people want accurate flight models and others want "balanced" FM's... this is interesting.

I'd also like to see the correct roll rates and other things.