diving extension/pitch-back

[BlackBerry]

Originally Posted by RegRag1977

Interesting read from "Fighter Combat" by Shaw.

It could indeed be nice to have two ace pilots from our community to fly and record the engagement such as described in your post to show other less skilled pilots how to fight with the Jug (in the IL2 1946 environment and at the same altitudes). I'm sure it would be very instructive.

Yes. but I doubt that P47C could beat spitfire IX at low alt in il2.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by BlackBerry

Yes. but I doubt that P47C could beat spitfire IX at low alt in il2.

Possibly, maybe.

Quick combat in IL2: 1 Ace Spitfire LF IXc vs. 1 Ace P-47D-10, 2000 meters, Normandy map. ~20 trials with AI on for both planes.

P-47D-10/Spitfire wins about 45% of the time, with about 10% double-kills.

But, the only time the P-47 wins is if it takes out the Spitfire in the first head-on pass. If the Spit survives the first pass with its engine running, it wins the fight.

As always, even Ace AI shows a suicidal tendency towards head-on passes against well-armed foes. AI P-47 pilots almost never use the plane's superior roll rate to make barrel rolls - just aileron rolls. Also, they never use the plane's superior speed to extend range to break off the fight or "drag the fight upstairs" where the jug would have the advantage.

That aside, if there were two human opponents facing off, and they were both smart enough to avoid head-on passes, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.

Also, it was a mock dogfight, so there was no damage. The Spitfire was in a position to take shots which could have ended the fight before Johnson was able to get into firing position.

So, realistically, in a maneuver fight at low altitude, the Spitfire's superior overall maneuverability, climb rate and cannon armament might give it the edge over the jug's slightly better speed, zoom climb and roll rate.

[BlackBerry]

But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.

1）P47C， not P47D. AI is stupid.
2) when P47C begins to dive, even a rockie pilot of spitfire could push full forward throttle with 3000rpm engine. A ace for spitfire? no help.

3) in Il2, you even can not extend to a safe distance beyond spitfire IX shoot range if both have similar initial energy. Leave alone "Pitch back".

[BlackBerry]

Originally Posted by BlackBerry

1）P47C， not P47D. AI is stupid.

2) when P47C begins to dive/zoom, even a rockie pilot of spitfire could push full forward throttle with 3000rpm engine. A ace for spitfire? no help.

3) in Il2, you even can not extend to a safe distance beyond spitfire IX shoot range if both have similar initial energy. Leave alone "Pitch back".

But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.

Also, it was a mock dogfight, so there was no damage. The Spitfire was in a position to take shots which could have ended the fight before Johnson was able to get into firing position.

Johnson said

But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. because of the P-47's heavier weight and higher density.

Don't forget spitfire cut short way to pursuit P47C when p47 zooming up.(45 degree? 60 degree?), and couldn't get closer. That's enough.

If I am the P47C pilot caught by a spitfire IX below 5000ft(1500m) alt, the first step is "dive extend" to 800-1000m safe distance, at this time, both are near deck. Then I begin to zoom carefully keeping spitfire IX from entering 500m shooting range. Is that possible? Johnson said spitfire can't get closer. LOL . Finally, when I begin to hammer around, I should be out of spit shoot range, 600m? Furthermore, this is not only 600m distance, but also 600m higher. Only with this energy advantage, could I turn back and point my guns to spitfire. Isn't it? If I get only 200-300m higher, I can barely turn back to spitfire.

When P47C vs SpitIX mock combat(1942late -1943 mid), there was no Tempest. In 1944, allied knew that Tempest could outdive/outzoom P47 slightly/somehow.

BTW, spitfire IX F,HF, even LF could outclimb P47C/D-early at high altitude,ie 8000m high. Funny. Of course, P47Dlate P47M/N is another story, P47M =Spitfire XIV @climb high alt.

[IceFire]

Whats your pull up angle? Maybe you're pulling up too sharply and he's cutting the corner. It's a common mistake. I use this in turn fighters all the time... any time someone pulls a dive with a zoom pull up they cut it too tightly and that's where I have them... if they were smarter they would have easily out zoomed me and pulled away.

[BlackBerry]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Whats your pull up angle? Maybe you're pulling up too sharply and he's cutting the corner. It's a common mistake. I use this in turn fighters all the time... any time someone pulls a dive with a zoom pull up they cut it too tightly and that's where I have them... if they were smarter they would have easily out zoomed me and pulled away.

Agree. Dive angle, zoom angle. The most important factor of a"dive extend/pitch back" tactic is ANGLE.

I think 45 degree or so dive/zoom is usually fine, but that depends on initial energy difference/distance etc. Just be careful, if your a/c has the dive/zoom advantage, you will finally hold the energy, that's energy fight.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by BlackBerry

Agree. Dive angle, zoom angle. The most important factor of a"dive extend/pitch back" tactic is ANGLE.

I think 45 degree or so dive/zoom is usually fine, but that depends on initial energy difference/distance etc. Just be careful, if your a/c has the dive/zoom advantage, you will finally hold the energy, that's energy fight.

45 degrees? I would say (although I don't actually measure) that mine are more like 30 degrees. A proper zoom to extend fully away and out of gun range before I tighten the zoom slightly before again letting it off as the energy decreases.

Modify your technique.. see if it helps. Maybe it will.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by BlackBerry

1）P47C， not P47D. AI is stupid.

Sadly, the P-47C isn't in the game, even though it was the pioneering U.S. long-range escort fighter in the ETO. The only razorback jug available is the P-47D-10. You go with what you got.

But, you make a good point. The P-47D had a vastly improved rate of climb, so there's no excuse for it to get consistently out-climbed by the Spitfire in the game, especially when zooming.

AI isn't bad, other than being aggressive about taking head-on shots. Not up to an ace human pilot's skill, but challenging enough for ordinary players. But, it certainly doesn't know how to take advantage of the P-47's strong points.

My point was that the P-47 isn't as hapless in the game as people claim it is, although it certainly isn't going to win a maneuver fight against a Spitfire with its current FM/physics modeling.

[RegRag1977]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Possibly, maybe.


But, that might just be realistic. In the historical dogfight described above, Shaw refers to Robert Johnson as "one of the greatest natural fighter pilots" while we don't know how good the Spitfire pilot was.

Also, it was a mock dogfight, so there was no damage. The Spitfire was in a position to take shots which could have ended the fight before Johnson was able to get into firing position.

So, realistically, in a maneuver fight at low altitude, the Spitfire's superior overall maneuverability, climb rate and cannon armament might give it the edge over the jug's slightly better speed, zoom climb and roll rate.

Good points.

However we must take into consideration that Shaw refers to Johnson's book in order to make a "scientific" point: it IS possible for a heavy energy fighter such as the P47 to win against T/B fighter in a dogfight.

Here P47 wins -no question- against Spitfire.

It is not just about pilots different skill levels (ace vs noob), it is about what can be done if an aircraft is flown correctly. Remember that Shaw does NOT care about opinions: he rather tries as engineer and pilot to make scientific statements (read: things that actually work in the real world) about how one can win against a disimilar aircraft. His book is something that must help fighter pilots to survive and win, not something that could lead to death.

Surely Shaw would not make a statement or illustrate a point with an inapropriate example: he knows what he's talking about. I don't see why he would describe a mock combat if it was of any use in an actual combat. My understanding is: during a well executed engagement a properly flown P47 could hold the fight against a properly flown Spitfire.

This is why i find BlackBerry's questionning very interesting and why i wanted to ask for aces pilots around here to do a demo showing how it is possible to hold a fight in a P47 against a Spitfire under 5000 ft ceiling.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RegRag1977

This is why i find BlackBerry's questionning very interesting and why i wanted to ask for aces pilots around here to do a demo showing how it is possible to hold a fight in a P47 against a Spitfire under 5000 ft ceiling.

I'd love to see this myself. I'd also love to try to do it myself but I don't fly online and I don't have rudder pedals. There's no way I can take advantage of the P-47's strengths if I can't do a decent barrel roll!