A newbies impression of the 109 and spit

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

I don't understand your point, Kur.

Yes, the Spit may have had a sensitive elevator. Yes, in case it went into a spin it may have done so in a violent manner.

But again, there is abundant indications by pilots that flew the spit that the airframe provided pilots with sufficient warning before this dangerous behaviour occured. This is, as I explained above, due to the fact that the spit had cranked wings with the inner sections of the wing stalling before the outer sections. The resulting buffeting provided a warning to the pilot.

My point is basically the difference how the Spitfire and 109 behaved when getting near the stall. Both gave plenty of warnings, but the difference was as I see it is that once riding the stall, the Spitfire gave very little margin before you actually stalled, and once stalled it went medieval on you. The 109 otoh could be still pulled with confidence, with plenty of margin for pilot error, as the pitch control was not so sensitive at all, and stall itself was benign and recovery by easing back on the stick instant once it occured. In short I believe the stall and flying the aircraft to its limits was much easier on the 109 - which I as not such a good pilot admire the most when I fly it, and which is why I never liked to fly the 190, Spit or Yak 3. All the latter require much more finesse to fly.

That is said, the 109 due to its higher stalling speed had lower absolute limits when it came to manouvering, so it could not pull such a tight/fast turn, but this is not so important to me as I can reliably push the 109 to its limits all the time.

The 'handling' issue is complex.

Stalling on the inner section is in no way dangerous as long as it is approximately symmetrical. I've seen with my own eyes during an experimental flight on a piper that also had cranked wings that basically this plane needs only 1/3 of its wing unstalled to provide sufficient lift. It will have been similar for the spit.

Absolutely true, but IMHO there is some misunderstanding about the stalling of the wing roots. All fighters and aircraft are designed as such, its hardly unique to the Spitfire at all. They make planes to stall in the root first because the pilot needs to retain aileron control. On the Spit, Fw 190 etc., pretty much every plane w/o slats its achieved by using washing, or cranking the wings so that the outer section has lower AoA than the inner and would thus reach stalling incidence later. On slatted aircraft like the 109, Lavochkins etc. the same is achieved by leading edge slats - its no coincidence that these cover the wing area ahead of the ailerons!

Now what you do is to confuse inexperienced pilots with seasoned ones. Inexperienced pilots of course will have the natural reflex to avoid any situation that puts them at discomfort as they still lack the confidence that comes with routine. They were absorbed by too many things to do at the same time that they had simply no mental resources to make the intelectual reflexion about buffeting as a safety warning even though they might have been told so in theory. They heard that being taught to them but only retained that buffeting means that stall is imminent and therefore has to be avoided. BTW on the German side inexperienced pilots also usually avoided to fly in that way that opened the slats. My guess is for the same reason as their British counterparts. Just try to put yourself in their shoes or remember you after having won your driving license. My guess is that anybody who loves his life will be prudent when trying to familiarize with a new way of motion (driving, flying) or a new type. The procedure most will adopt is to slowly increase the envelop of one's action with growing confidence. Well, that's how I feel when I have a new car with which I am not familiar with. It takes me a while to become more bold with it. I am surely not starting to race like Schumacher on the German Autobahn with a newly bought car.

Absolutely agree, when I was doing my licence I had three cars to learn on (one of them being an absolutely horrid old Ford Escort, which I absolutely hated) and I always needed about 5 hours in the new ones to get familiar and instinctly 'feel' their behaviour. OTOH I am very familiar with my own car, which has superb and delightful response (which is why I am so reluctant to give it up) and can really get the maximum out of it now, and with growing experience, I need a lot less time to adjust to a new car.

Back to the planes, as a rookie I would be more confident to experiment and push things a bit more in a plane that tolerates my mistakes more. Straightforward handling and not having to bother with a million others things like engine controls helps a confused rookie a lot. The car example is pretty good actually, because while learning to drive the most difficult thing was to absorb all the things and information that were happening around me, giving me very little capacity to actually drive the car. With time and experience, much of that absorbing becomes a second nature, and automatic, instinctual.

ps. as for the Autobahn, its a dreadful experience at first if you are not got used to cars flashing by constantly at 200 + km/h..