The Crystal Ball

[David Hayward]

furbs, the reason you're not whining on the RoF forum is because Jason would ban you in about 2 seconds. He doesn't put up with any of the BS that is posted in here.

There needs to be people who are prepared to diagnose accurately and without malice about any given situation. That is why Furbs and many others post as they do. It doesn't mean you have to be pompous or high and mighty, just cut through the crescendo about how good things are.

The one that makes me question reality is this old trope: you will endanger future endeavors if you don't be quiet. Which is similar to being told that all mathematics is in trouble if we can't agree to 2 + 2 = 5.

Attempts to stop this by complaining about the tone of the criticism (lack of respect etc) or characterising it all as a single whinge generally only rebound on those that do it. The game itself, and the state of it, will have a habit of throwing up new critics, despite how often the critics are routinely removed, baited, whatever.

It's a fairly simple and fundamental point.

The defenders-of-the-faith do more harm in helping 'their own' game, than good, in reality. I'm beginning to think they do more harm than the more extreme critics. It is one of the ironies of the situation, and must be mildly frustrating to those who take the uber-fans' viewpoint seriously (I do not take them seriously) . It is like arguing Copernican values. You can do it, and you can ban contrary views from various forums...but what a waste of energy, and how silly, ultimately.

Much of the criticism is based on really obvious, simple points. A whole lot more is getting people to see these points, which they can;t do if they're busy trying to gun all criticism down.

Ben

Originally Posted by JG52Uther

Yes RoF works, after two years it is a nice game, with constant paid for DLM, and its still on the edge of going under at any time. Their fanbase is only growing slowly.
If Jason is fed up of people complaining on a forum which is almost 100% positive, how do you think Luthier feels.
I think (hope) Jasons post made people perk up and take notice on the RoF forum, and I mentioned it because what he said is also valid here.
People whinging and whining, and constantly having forum fights here DOES damage these sims, and endanger their future, so don't be surprised if action is taken against people who do it.

If I may comment...The whole story strated with Oleg 10 years ago...I would say that most of present faithful followers were there too.
Oleg used to share with us almost daily with comments and small updates. Then they became weekly, every friday...That was Oleg's way. He would spend hours , every week, discussing his ideas, his dreams and goals with us.
This is what Maddox Games were when it all started. This is were most of us are comming from. We were used to that . This is how it was done.
There was whining there too. Oleg would come up, clarify things and go on.
Then another complain. He would come back and show us what was done to fix the issue. Then got back working...He never let things go out of control.
He was very optimistic about COD's new technology and was always telling us that we would be very impressed with the quality of the final product. Then, 2 years ago , something went very wrong...And we were never told or explained what happend. I personnaly think that is when the whole relationship was compromised. And nothing has been done since to really heal the broken link of faith. We are still here...But we cannot really put back our hearts in 1C until ....All we can do is hope, wait, and ...whine....
Salute !

[JG52Uther]

Hope and wait, yes, whine no. Those days have gone.

[Ataros]

Originally Posted by furbs

Well i see it differently...in fact there is such a huge difference between CLOD and its developers and ROF and jason.

Maybe you are right and CloD team is not as good as RoF team. This does not change Jason's point that constant negativity of some part of community is harmful to a project.

Originally Posted by furbs

Because they have always been up front and honest about the games problems and have ALWAYS posted info, updates and blogs telling us what they are working on, a rough idea when the next patch will be out and if they are slipping they tell you why..they have always had a road map and a long term plan.

If they say they going to do something...THEY DO IT.

But most of all they FIX things and they stay fixed.

Each patch that is released has made progress and improved the sim.

ROF works.

Even this perfect team which you describe could hardly handle the damage caused by the malcontents over recent 2+ years according to Jason. All this did not help them.

If you think the CloD team is not this good why would you want to make even more damage to it?

The team needs us to remind them about key issues which they can forget (like COOP one) because they may be overwhelmed with the challenges they are facing from time to time. But I am sure that this should be done in a rational business-like manner to be heard and to be of any use. Negative emotions cause only negative reaction as we can see even in Jason's posts.

Let's agree with you that CloD devs are not as good as RoF devs that you try to prove in your post. OK. Does it make you happy? Would it inspire anyone here to make fixes quicker, to work extra hours, to skip vacations to get results quicker?

PS. 777 are open for discussion because they are the publisher and Jason is the Biggest Boss of the publisher. For MG publishers are 1C in Russia and UBI in other countries. Luthier is not the Big Boss of the publisher and has non-disclosure agreements with both of them. No one would benefit if he breaks one and gets fired.

He may also think that it is UBI responsibility to answer your questions because UBI's PR people are paid for this. It case of 777 Jason is paid for this and community liaison is a part of his job-description unlike Luthier's one. You may not like it and seek revenge on these forums but this is how business is done. Marketing and communication budgets are spent by publishers not by developers. If you are angry talk to UBI because they are your publisher, you paid them and they got your money. If you want to support the developer you can do it on this forum (as it belongs to developer, not to UBI).

[furbs]

Il take all that on board Ataros and have a think.

Just my opinion...

If before release Luthier had said "look CLOD isnt ready and its going to take at least a year to get it to a standard we all want...at the moment it has many problems please help us beta test it and improve it...
here is rough year road map of what we are going to do..."

Then had they stuck to it and made progress you would have 99% less moaning as you see it.

Where is the progress Ataros? i dont care it it takes a long time but i want to see clear progress and the core features fixed.

Does anyone really believe a flight sim development team with 12 years experience in ww2 air combat needs the community to help fix the AI?
Its just padding, smoke and mirrors

Come on, if the guy whos paid to make the AI doesnt know...then they have the wrong guy.


Progress and fixes is what will fix the sim and this community...nothing else.

[Ataros]

Originally Posted by furbs

If before release Luthier had said "look CLOD isnt ready and its going to take at least a year to get it to a standard we all want...at the moment it has many problems please help us beta test it and improve it...
here is rough year road map of what we are going to do..."

Then had they stuck to it and made progress you would have 99% less moaning as you see it.

I agree. I think he could not do it because of NDA with UBI and/or 1C. Oleg even had to participate in the launch event in Moscow because of his contract obligations. I do not think they were allowed to talk about what happened. Luthier mentioned on sukhoi in March something like please do not ask me questions (about release issues) answering which would get me fired next morning. Luthier is an aviation enthusiast but he has to make money for the publishers. It is even more complicated because MG is now part of Softclub which is a part of 1C which has contract obligations to UBI. Too many bosses above luthier. May be not 100% correct, just my impression. Softclub merger happened in 2009 IIRC due to economic crisis. Then anti-crisis management took command and many employees of the team left. After the launch Oleg wrote on his Youtube channel that he is not sure if the team would be allowed to finish the product. Remember how happy luthier was bringing here the news that the project will be continued?

Regarding roadmap I think luthier mentioned some in spring and summer but then they did not got through it. Maybe because new people have to decipher someone else's code which can be a nightmare. Maybe there are other reasons. They can not tell us because of NDA with UBI and 1C/Softclub bosses, especially on the official forums.

Why all the above happened? Oleg as a man took responsibility for 2 major reasons: 1) did not insist on making CloD using old IL-2 engine and believed some team members that the new engine can be done in shorter time, 2) attempted to meet all user requests, wishes and dreams as it was in Il-2 which was not possible in the new engine because of its complexity (much more people had to be hired which did not happen due to many reasons - crisis and other) http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showthrea...=1#post1683314

Originally Posted by furbs

Where is the progress Ataros? i dont care it it takes a long time but i want to see clear progress and the core features fixed.

Does anyone really believe a flight sim development team with 12 years experience in ww2 air combat needs the community to help fix the AI?
Its just padding, smoke and mirrors

Come on, if the guy whos paid to make the AI doesnt know...then they have the wrong guy.

The AI guy was changed within the recent year IIRC.
I can see that the team is in trouble and they can not deliver results as quickly as I want (and as luthier wants). I understand also that they can not be as sincere and open as Jason is before all of 3 their Big Bosses approve in writing what they can sincerely say.

The question is if we want to give them our hand of help or we seek revenge and want them to burn together with this project? I posted one very negative reply regarding COOPs in the last "Q&A" thread because I knew luthier would probably see it and provided links to facts and bugreports. But if I start repeating it every day this will not be constructive any more because 1) they will stop listening to this negative noise, 2) this would discourage the devs, 3) this will give wrong impression to newcomers that there is nothing good in the game (because of the same negative noise).

I am sure that what Jason said about 777 can be applied to MG issues. Development may stop any minute if we do not support the devs or Luthier may get too disappointed with forum reaction and move to the USA to his family where he can make more money probably too. Then someone of 1C Big Bosses would have to finish the series making it an arcade free-to-play fest.

Let's get as constructive as we can. This is the only way out.
At least we have a new engine, not a 10-year old Il-2 one (as we could) and the team was allowed to continue development yet. Gods were on our side so far.

Originally Posted by furbs

Progress and fixes is what will fix the sim and this community...nothing else.

I think luthier would agree with you because his bosses remind him about this every day.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by furbs

Il take all that on board Ataros and have a think.

Just my opinion...

If before release Luthier had said "look CLOD isnt ready and its going to take at least a year to get it to a standard we all want...at the moment it has many problems please help us beta test it and improve it...
here is rough year road map of what we are going to do..."

Then had they stuck to it and made progress you would have 99% less moaning as you see it.

Where is the progress Ataros? i dont care it it takes a long time but i want to see clear progress and the core features fixed.

Does anyone really believe a flight sim development team with 12 years experience in ww2 air combat needs the community to help fix the AI?
Its just padding, smoke and mirrors

Come on, if the guy whos paid to make the AI doesnt know...then they have the wrong guy.


Progress and fixes is what will fix the sim and this community...nothing else.

And yet Luthier gives a clear road map about what they're trying to fix/not fix at the current moment and you're the first to chime in about something not immediately relevent to the upadate like Anistropic Filtering. You expect us to believe that you wouldn't complain about being beta testers for an incomplete project had they been forth coming?

[ACE-OF-ACES]

Originally Posted by Ataros

Maybe you are right and CloD team is not as good as RoF team. This does not change Jason's point that constant negativity of some part of community is harmful to a project.

I always knew 777 was not making a killing.. But I did not know they were so close to shutting down the operation..

Thanks for the heads up!

Based on that info I just went and spent $25+ on..

Halberstadt CL.II
R.E.8
SPAD 7.C1 150 HP

Now I have all the planes!!

Even though I have no interest in flying the SPAD..

Same is true of a lot of the RoF planes and Field Mods I have bought in the past.. I see it as supporting the people who make the the HOBBY I love possible

And when you stop and think.. I can spend more than that on a lunch.. Three times that in a few hours at the bar.. Four times that filling up my truck once.. Which puts it all into perspective.. It really is the cheapest form of entertainment around! That is to say if RoF closes it's doors next week, it will still be best entertainment money I have spent this week

Now.. I am off to try out my new RE8! S!

[furbs]

Think i might fill up with a few planes too. price of a lunch.