How to fly a Spit 1a correctly!?

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

For me it is obvious that above 5Km the Merlin breathe better than the Daimler.

One of my fav move if a 109 chase me in my hurri is to climb up if I feel that I hve time to reach the 20K+ feet where any fight will be on even grounds.

The problem is the performance and behaviour of all aircraft at higher altitude is a bit off in game (as for 1.05) - this includes actual engine power modelling and overheating. Both DB and Merlins have got the same problems higher up.

What you suggest is a suicide in a Hurricane, you won't be able to climb up from a 109 if you both happen to be in a co-e engagement. If he's higher than you, you have to work really hard to slow him down and outmaneuver him. Good 109 pilot won't allow that and will keep his advantage and you can play in on time making his shooting difficult and climbing whenever possible. The thing with Hurri is you can't get too fast if you want to keep your maneuvrability advantage. You can't get too slow either because fast 109 will outturn you. If the 109 jockey makes a mistake and bleeds his speed he's dead, if you fly well you'll be on top of him rather soon. Even good 109 pilots can lose their patience and / or get frustrated after few attacks and bleed e slowing down going after you, break and climb.

If you catch a 109 down below you certainly won't try to outclimb it to 20.000ft in order to have a upper hand. You have it already, so jump on it and depending how good he is (you'll see after first few moments, trust me), you either go aggressive or you carefully keep your e-advantage and pick your attacks. If you're good shot and if you fly clean, you will win. If he desengages, let him go, you won't catch him (well you will eventually, but that will be in France, far and low)

And I agree with Doggles, I often struggle to understand what you mean and I don't get all your whining and accusing others of cheating on ATAG either. For sure, I don't agree with your advice regarding flying the Hurricane at all.

Of course, flying high will help, on ATAG, some 13-15.000ft is plenty for RAF.

[Robo.]

Regarding the actual topic, flying the Spitfire Mk.Ia - what has been said is valid for any fighter aicraft - e.g. stay fast, stay high (ideally both), loiter around dogfights and pick the strugglers etc.

The usual mistake you'll see on servers is Spits getting engaged with Bf 109s right after taking off (you got no choice sometimes, I know), but a 109 coming fast on you while you're down and slow is a difficult situation even for experienced pilot. You can turn better, but the 109 won't turn with you - he will zoom in and out, shooting at you in the process and you will be defending yourself hoping for a buddy to come over and help you out. It's so much better to be that buddy

The Spitfire is an excellent plane, it has got wings and it has got guns. You've got your head with brain in it. If you make good use of them three you can be very succesful pilot.

1. Unless you intend to practice defensive maneuvers and breaks, don't fly straight underneath the 109s. There are always some 109s near Hawkinge on ATAG - coming in various alts, make sure you're not below unless you have to. Climb instead and watch out for the enemy.

2. When engaged in a fight, say 109 above dives on you - break hard enough to make his shooting difficult, but keep your speed and gain some height whenever possible. Don't even think about outclimbing him, your plane can't do that. You won't be able to catch him either if he decides to break away. The key is to fly your maneuvers clean and make him bleed his energy trying to attack you, climbing afterwards, ideally rolling into his turn so he can't do a hammerhead on you. You will see if you're gaining, but carefuly with your nose up as if you get too slow trying to get a shot, your Merlin III will cut as your nose drops in a near stall situation and you will lose precious seconds. That's not worth it, if done correctly, you might as well gain some angles depending on the initial energy difference. Obviously, if he comes in with massive E advantage and zooms up 2km above you, you better bugger off. If you feel you can fight him despite his advantage, try doing this, chose trajectory where he won't be able to roll into you and shoot and don't pull more than necessary. It's a thing to master on all the aicraft - keep you energy, fly clean and smooth. Then, eventually he either notices he's sort of co-e with you and disengages, in which case let him and climb away and watch him closely. Or he won't notice the danger until you make some .303 holes in him. Just shot him down. If he hits you though, that's pity because you already made a mistake of being below a 109 and this is just a way to fix that mistake, doesn't work against good 109 pilots. Good news there is not many of them

3. Ideally, you made it to some 11-13k and you see a dogfight, perhaps some RAF chaps chasing a 109. Let them do their job, there is nothing more annoying than some hot shot spoiling your fight when you're behind your target. If you see a pair engaged in a fight in paragraph 2., e.g. a 109 zooming a Spit or a Hurri, it's your turn. Don't go in being another Spit the 109 zooms! Climb and get the bugger when he can't see you. It's all about timing, the Emil yo-yos up and down, slowing down for a hammerhead or immelman - that's when you want to get him. He probably won't see you at all as he's busy not losing the contact underneath him. You can dive on him or even better, make a zoom climb as you got more control that way. Even if he hears you or sees you coming, there is nothing much he can do. Make sure you hit him, the 303 are devastating if used right. Practice your shooting!

3. The 109 pilots sometimes think they can outclimb you. But they can not. If you come from good position, if you can keep your energy and if you fly clean, you'll catch them and let them have it. That is priceless feeling in any aircraft, but slightly more so in a RAF fighter against a 109 because you beat them on their own ground so to speak.

4. If you happen to be in a co-e fight against a 109, what you do all depends on how your oponent handles the plane. You can outturn him (but don't bleed too much speed), he's stronger on the vertical (especially stall fight as your engine will caugh, his won't), fly yo-yos to trade speed for alt and fly better than him. Shoot better than him and you will win. Good 109 pilot won't turn with you and rather decides to extend and come back with advantage. This is rather hypothetical as if you see a Emil turning after you you know he doesn'k know what he's doing and if he keeps doing that you'll be shooting at him after 2 cycles. Still, don't go too horizontal, fly clean lag and pull only as hard as you need to win the fight and keep your speed. Careful with 109s going in fast, they turn better than you for at that speed (theirs is high, yours is low) and certainly can get few 20mm holes in you.

Above applies to Hurricane as well, the difference being mainly maneuvrability, speed and roll rate, but they somehow share the main characteristics regarding basic advantages - disadvantages against a 109.

One of the best posts I've read in this forum. Kudos, Robo!

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Robo.

The problem is the performance and behaviour of all aircraft at higher altitude is a bit off in game (as for 1.05) - this includes actual engine power modelling and overheating. Both DB and Merlins have got the same problems higher up.

What you suggest is a suicide in a Hurricane, you won't be able to climb up from a 109 if you both happen to be in a co-e engagement. If he's higher than you, you have to work really hard to slow him down and outmaneuver him. Good 109 pilot won't allow that and will keep his advantage and you can play in on time making his shooting difficult and climbing whenever possible. The thing with Hurri is you can't get too fast if you want to keep your maneuvrability advantage. You can't get too slow either because fast 109 will outturn you. If the 109 jockey makes a mistake and bleeds his speed he's dead, if you fly well you'll be on top of him rather soon. Even good 109 pilots can lose their patience and / or get frustrated after few attacks and bleed e slowing down going after you, break and climb.

If you catch a 109 down below you certainly won't try to outclimb it to 20.000ft in order to have a upper hand. You have it already, so jump on it and depending how good he is (you'll see after first few moments, trust me), you either go aggressive or you carefully keep your e-advantage and pick your attacks. If you're good shot and if you fly clean, you will win. If he desengages, let him go, you won't catch him (well you will eventually, but that will be in France, far and low)

And I agree with Doggles, I often struggle to understand what you mean and I don't get all your whining and accusing others of cheating on ATAG either. For sure, I don't agree with your advice regarding flying the Hurricane at all.

Of course, flying high will help, on ATAG, some 13-15.000ft is plenty for RAF.

The prob with the kind of ppl like you is that you always intend other to be stupid or single minded like you can be sometime. Well... life is that not such easy and if things are more complicated it's a gift not a plea. So take time to understand that there is not only easy solutions to any problem and then you'll admit how good fighting for something is and preclude the use of mods and cheats.

That's what I don't like with ppl writing things like you did : you always put a negative tint on others comments.

Are you so stupid to think that I am advocating dragging a 109 from deck to 20k ft ?

Btw : thx this makes me laughing a good min

Regarding your 2nd post and the fact that the Spit can out-climb a 109 that's exactly what I put frwrd that we shld not hve here, especially with zoom climb.
I just went out of a dogfight with a spit that completed his stupid flat 360 at 80+ deg bank and zoom back behind me closing like he just hve been catapulted. Wht was my move ? At the beginning of his 360 I simply extended forward with nose up. ANd no Rob, I was not on the verge of a stall.

[reflected]

TomCat: I have just the opposite experience. I dived down in a Spit MkIa on a 109 that was running away on the deck, but couldn't get enough speed to catch him. He started climbing and I couldn't keep up with him. He gained separation and alt advantage (I did everything I could - emergency boost, trimming - no avail.

Then there are those real anecdotes on that spitfireperformance website that say a Spit outclimbed a 109 (Of course, that site is probably biased).

What I mean is that you should stop the personal attacks you and some others too, and give us some hard data. If it proves that something is wrong, I'm all for correcting it - not that it' up to me

But the fact that you got shot down by a better pilot online hardly proves anything. Mind you, I agree that current FM-s need a lot of fine tuning.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by reflected

TomCat: I have just the opposite experience. I dived down in a Spit MkIa on a 109 that was running away on the deck, but couldn't get enough speed to catch him. He started climbing and I couldn't keep up with him. He gained separation and alt advantage (I did everything I could - emergency boost, trimming - no avail.

Then there are those real anecdotes on that spitfireperformance website that say a Spit outclimbed a 109 (Of course, that site is probably biased).

What I mean is that you should stop the personal attacks you and some others too, and give us some hard data. If it proves that something is wrong, I'm all for correcting it - not that it' up to me

But the fact that you got shot down by a better pilot online hardly proves anything. Mind you, I agree that current FM-s need a lot of fine tuning.

Typical...
1. Who said I was shot down ?
2. Where did you read from me a personal attack ?
3. I did say above 5km and around 20kft

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

Regarding your 2nd post and the fact that the Spit can out-climb a 109 that's exactly what I put frwrd that we shld not hve here, especially with zoom climb.
I just went out of a dogfight with a spit that completed his stupid flat 360 at 80+ deg bank and zoom back behind me closing like he just hve been catapulted. Wht was my move ? At the beginning of his 360 I simply extended forward with nose up. ANd no Rob, I was not on the verge of a stall.

If that Spit catched you, you were doing something wrong, that's all.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

That's what I don't like with ppl writing things like you did : you always put a negative tint on others comments.

That was not my intention, I just disagreed with you. I have never met you in combat and wouldn't comment your skill as such. Everybody makes mistakes in combat and everybody deals with them in a different manner, that's OK.

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

Are you so stupid to think that I am advocating dragging a 109 from deck to 20k ft ?

This is what you wrote: ''One of my fav move if a 109 chase me in my hurri is to climb up if I feel that I hve time to reach the 20K+ feet where any fight will be on even grounds. ''

I didn't say you tried to do that from the deck, I say you won't be able to win a climbing contest with a 109 in any RAF fighter

As for what reflected wrote - he probably means this site, esp. pilot recalls in the bottom section

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Biased or not, these are 'carefuly' chosen entries from logbooks and interviews, very subjective of course, but still valid and very interesting. The problem is, it does not say anything about initial statuses of the a/c involved, e.g. speed and alt.

These kind of situations are all about relative energy, one of the key skills of a sim pilot is a correct (and pretty much constant) judgement of your opponent's energy relative to your own. The usual dogfight situation is usualy far from top speed race or climbing competition. But if you see a 109 that's slower than you, can certainly ouclimb her

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Robo.

That was not my intention, I just disagreed with you. I have never met you in combat and wouldn't comment your skill as such. Everybody makes mistakes in combat and everybody deals with them in a different manner, that's OK.

And mistake I make

Originally Posted by Robo.

This is what you wrote: ''One of my fav move if a 109 chase me in my hurri is to climb up if I feel that I hve time to reach the 20K+ feet where any fight will be on even grounds. ''

I didn't say you tried to do that from the deck, I say you won't be able to win a climbing contest with a 109 in any RAF fighter

Yup unless you are at alt

The point here is not to gain from the 109 that seat in your 6 but to hve enough time to drag him were the fight will be on even grounds.

Originally Posted by Robo.

As for what reflected wrote - he probably means this site, esp. pilot recalls in the bottom section

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Biased or not, these are 'carefuly' chosen entries from logbooks and interviews, very subjective of course, but still valid and very interesting.

That's all the prob with this kind of website. it's biased and partial. You can't take all the good and leave the bad, scientifically doing that you are toasted !

Giving all the efforts the author as provided it's sad that he/she did fall in that muddy ground (personal comment).

Regarding the E state that has to be put in consideration, you said it all.

The 109E was one of the best climber of WWII. Such it was that the late k4 was said to retrieve the same climb speed. There is no secret to that : fined tuned aero coeffs to let a thicker airfoil being practicable with a surrealistic Power to weight ratio (if you make abstraction of the engine weight, the basic structure of the 109 compete with many late war design - exception made of the Zero Zeke).

But this is OT. That's not what I wanted when I jumped into that discussion. Neither being harsh with you.

~S!

[Robo.]

I agree, Tomcat and thank you for you reply, I appreciate that. Although the FMs in game are off in many aspects, the basic characteristics are there already - and simply as that, the 109 will outclimb anything IF flown correctly.

As for the topic - Flying for the RAF, I very much prefer the Hurricane (Rotol prop.) as it's faster than Spitfire Mk.Ia and it climbs better. I know this is weird and historically incorrect, but that's how it is in 1.05. Although the Spitfire has some advantages over the Hurricane (control response, high speed handling etc), some might prefer either due to their style of flying. Testing both on ATAG, Hurricane outran and outclimbed the Mk.Ia at any height. (Hurricane had slightly less fuel, but was still much heavier than Spitty)

Spitfire and Hurricane are both good enough to give 109s some grief, but mind you that if you're a good RAF pilot and you meet a equally good 109 pilot who sees you, he's gonna win unless he makes some mistake. You can make him do that mistake of course, but as for 1.05, capabilities of his aircraft will allow him to win and keep the upper hand and should he be getting in trouble, he can disengage from the fight at any time. I am not saying that flying a 109 'correctly' and be succesful in it is easy though, quite the opposite.

Above is my opinion based on the experience on ATAG, your results may vary