Expansion from Desatersoft

[adonys]

seeking for truth doesn't make you have colors, sir.

Eisenhower's DEF.. official Wikipedia link..

"Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF), and—less commonly[1]—Surrendered Enemy Forces, was a U.S. designation, both for soldiers who surrendered to an adversary after hostilities ended, and for those previously surrendered POWs who were held in camps in occupied German territory at that time.[2] It is mainly referenced to Dwight D. Eisenhower's designation of German prisoners in post World War II occupied Germany.[3] Because of the logistical impossibility of feeding millions of surrendered German soldiers at the levels required by the Geneva Convention during the food crisis of 1945, the purpose of the designation—along with the British designation of Surrendered Enemy Personnel (SEP)—was to prevent categorization of the prisoners as Prisoners of War (POW) under the 1929 Geneva Convention"..

"After the DEF designations were made in the early summer of 1945, the International Red Cross was not permitted to fully involve itself in the situation in camps containing German prisoners (POWs, DEFs or SEPs), some of which initially were Rheinwiesenlager transit camps, and even though conditions in them gradually improved, "even the most conservative estimates put the death toll in French camps alone at over 16,500 in 1945""

"Most captives of the Americans and the British were released by the end of 1948, and most of those in French and Soviet captivity were released by the end of 1949, although the last big release occurred in 1956. According to the section of the German Red Cross dealing with tracing the captives, the ultimate fate of 1,300,000 German POW's in Allied custody is still unknown; they are still officially listed as missing.[41]"

they were thought during the following 50 years to be lost to the russians.. but.. recently russians opened their WWII camp prisoner files, and those were not in there..
and don't even try to say russian were trying to hide this number, as they haven't tried to hide all the others which were really attributed to them neither..

or is the german post-war red cross nazi-colored (as you imply by your words) to you too?!!


Yes, the 200.000 killed in dresden is a german WWII official casualty tall (though your Goebells naming of it is tendentious). the official allied post war one is around 25.000.. yet even 25k is more than 1/3 from the WHOLE british WWII civil casualties.. in a single bombing raid over a single german town..

Readers beware: go read official wikipedia "RAF strategic bombing during the Second World War" and the whole World War II city bombing.. a few allied "humanitarian" bombings: Tokio (march 1945 100k people died in a single allied firebombing), Hiroshima & Nagasaki (90,000–166,000 killed in Hiroshima, 60,000–80,000 killed in Nagasaki), Hamburg, (read the allied name of this operation, ie a biblical city name obliterated with all its inhabitants by God's wrath! "killing 42,600 civilians and wounding 37,000 in Hamburg and practically destroying the entire city. The unusually warm weather and good conditions meant that the bombing was highly concentrated around the intended targets and also created a vortex and whirling updraft of super-heated air which created a 1,500-foot-high tornado of fire, a totally unexpected effect"), Dresden (25k) and so on..


also, you seem to overlook the words I've used when presenting those of the points which are still in debate (for example "it seems that there was no systematic mass gas executions campaign in german concentration camps..")

everyone knows that history is written by the victors.. the whole human history is filled up with this.. but that doesn't mean bits f truth can not be surfaced, or that we should not try to ever find them..

I just presented those as food for thought and personal investigation.. have you done this? or it is just your "history" outrage talking for you?

I think you made it very clear to the readers of this forum what kind of thinking you follow.

For those interested to this >1 Mio prisonners were starved to death by Western allied. This is a hypothesis published by Mr. Bacque in a book repeatedly refuted by recognized historians. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Losses

I think I do not need to link anything about Shoah, as there can be no doubt that there had been a huge extermination plan put into action killing millions by Germany at that time.

[adonys]

of course they were "refuted" by "recognized historians".. again, always history is written by the victors.

here's a link regarding the pre-WWII polish atrocities: Polish Atrocities against the German minority in Poland pre-WWII, and another one regarding general WWII atrocities.

it's a theory, which most probably will never be proved, even if it might be real. but you can try to read, and make some personal opinion about it.

also, your attitude, tone and implies are disturbing: I am no nazi, and have nothing to do with them. I do not think that german race is a superior race, and everyone else should go to dirt. I'm not even a german for that!

I do not believe nazis and germans were angels, and haven't committed atrocities during WWII, but I also do not believe the allies to be the divine peace messengers they were posing into.. each nation has his own scum, sick people enjoying doing bad things on other people, and unfortunately those are the real culprits for these.

I just want to know the truth, not just blindly accept propaganda, no matter which color or side that propaganda is. I want to ask questions and learn to use my brain, not sheepingly accept everything others want me to believe is the truth.

[robtek]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

I think you made it very clear to the readers of this forum what kind of thinking you follow.

For those interested to this >1 Mio prisonners were starved to death by Western allied. This is a hypothesis published by Mr. Bacque in a book repeatedly refuted by recognized historians. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Losses

I think I do not need to link anything about Shoah, as there can be no doubt that there had been a huge extermination plan put into action killing millions by Germany at that time.

You should also post the line above the mentioned article:

Unbalanced scales.svg
The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (January 2009)

[desastersoft]

For Clearence:
The German Historian Commission who stated, that at Dresden where killed "only 25.000" Citizens, was not an independend Commission!

The "Body Count" was made by the "Books of Dead" of Dresden in 1945.
Stormcrow, if you set this Equal to Auschwitz, than you will find out what Number of killed People?
To help you out: The Soviet Army set the Body Count by Books of Dead to 74.000 People. Do you now believe, that only 74.000 People died in Auschwitz? In 1945 the international Red Cross numbered the Cassulties in Dresden by 220.000 People (aafter the War).
Dr. Goebbels personal Diary (i am owning a complete Edition) is talkíng about some between 250.000 - 200.000 People by the Statement of the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (German military High Command). This was not used in Propaganda, just to say it, its the private Diary.

If you do body count, please do it in the same way to all war opponents. Just for fairness .

Originally Posted by desastersoft

For Clearence:
The German Historian Commission who stated, that at Dresden where killed "only 25.000" Citizens, was not an independend Commission!

The "Body Count" was made by the "Books of Dead" of Dresden in 1945.
Stormcrow, if you set this Equal to Auschwitz, than you will find out what Number of killed People?
To help you out: The Soviet Army set the Body Count by Books of Dead to 74.000 People. Do you now believe, that only 74.000 People died in Auschwitz? In 1945 the international Red Cross numbered the Cassulties in Dresden by 220.000 People (aafter the War).
Dr. Goebbels personal Diary (i am owning a complete Edition) is talkíng about some between 250.000 - 200.000 People by the Statement of the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (German military High Command). This was not used in Propaganda, just to say it, its the private Diary.

If you do body count, please do it in the same way to all war opponents. Just for fairness .

Well, body count was begun by adonys, someone with more than questionable hypothesises ...

... and you continue. Speaks louder than words.

[desastersoft]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

Well, body count was begun by adonys, someone with more than questionable hypothesises ...

... and you continue. Speaks louder than words.

Okay, if i call you for fair Statement, i am the Bad Guy ... LOL...

You are one of those Persons, what never made any historical research but talking about others. Do one Time an independent historical research about the Time between the Wars. If you do not have the ability about the Matirial, i will help you out, just ask and stop blaming, please.