Expansion from Desatersoft

[Gerbil Maximus]

Originally Posted by adonys

After WWI Germany was brought on its knees, lots of its territory ripped of by its neighbors, and population was enslaved and forced to pay insane war compensations..

Why did that happen, oh yeah because the nation was in the directly responsible for the progression from political actions to warfare, resulting in the deaths of millions of people. Sympathy wasnt on the minds of the nations that had sacrificed millions in the conflict.

Is this view ment to be written as a characters view point? if so then its acceptable when placed as opinion.

If its placed as matter of fact history then surely its clearly untrue and quite simply an extension of what the people of Germany were told by the nazi regime to justify the taking of poland and czechoslovakia?

[robtek]

Originally Posted by Gerbil Maximus

..........
If its placed as matter of fact history then surely its clearly untrue and quite simply an extension of what the people of Germany were told by the nazi regime to justify the taking of poland and czechoslovakia?

That was your answer to:

After WWI Germany was brought on its knees, lots of its territory ripped of by its neighbors, and population was enslaved and forced to pay insane war compensations..
written by Adonys.

Which part of that is untrue?

The French used german "slave" labour in the rhineland.
Germany lost territories, i.e. all the colonies.
Germany had to pay immense reparations.

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Gerbil Maximus

Why did that happen, oh yeah because the nation was in the directly responsible for the progression from political actions to warfare, resulting in the deaths of millions of people. Sympathy wasnt on the minds of the nations that had sacrificed millions in the conflict.

Is this view ment to be written as a characters view point? if so then its acceptable when placed as opinion.

If its placed as matter of fact history then surely its clearly untrue and quite simply an extension of what the people of Germany were told by the nazi regime to justify the taking of poland and czechoslovakia?

well, actually, after a war, if you want peace and pretend you are not a slaver country, you would offer fair terms for the defeated nation to can cope with. if you offer them enslavement and death, why it seem to you so out-of-the-ordinary for the enslaved county to revolt, if they have the guts to rather prefer death to enslavement?!!

germany was offered none at the end of WWI, so it was the perfect natural thing every sane mind would have to expect from them, namely rise again in war to obtain human peace settlements..

your history learned you some things.. but what if they are not really like that?!!

here's for you some food of thought, go search the internet for information and use your own brain to try to decide which of them are looking as to have really happened:
- it seems that Poland was kind of rogue state before WWII, and was deploying concentration camps in which the german population from german territories occupied by Poland at the end of WWI was exterminated, resulting in Germany attacking Poland to stop this (should it be really a coincidence the fact that most of the german WWII concentration camps were actually situated in Poland?!!)
- Britain starting the night bombing campaign over german cities (ie civil targets), as being the only thing they could do to hurt Germany at the time, and the odious german fuhrer refusing to pay them with the same coin for more than a month or two, until it could bear it no more, and started the british cities bombing campaign (namely London).. just to have the british cry outraged to the whole world how the cruel germans were hitting their civil tragets
- Britain civil casualties for the whole WWII are like 67.000 people.. while only in the dresden the infamous allied bombing raids killed around 200000 people.. yet the german are the criminal ones
- The allied (phosphorus) bombing campaign over german civil targets in order to destroy their homes and therefore obliterate their morale and resolution to continue the war, killing german civilians in their hundreds of thousands, and obliterating most of the german cities from the face of the earth and leaving most of german population without homes was never condemned as war crimes.. yet german leaders were condemned at Nurenberg as war criminals
- Eisenhower's DEF camps a the end of the war, in which between 900000 and 1700000 german POWs were starved to their deaths
- the most incredible of them all.. until you start digging for truth..: it seems that there were no systemaic mass gas executions campaign in german concentration camps, but just allied post war victory propaganda (skeleton like humans pictures were in fact presenting typhus infected prisoners, germans actually using cyclone B gas to disinfect the clothes of the prisoners in order to stop typhus disease and fleas spreading, clothes disinfection chambers actually having metal sealing doors and gas evacuation systems, while the alleged human gas chambers were not having those, huge gas chambers output bins presented as so after the war are not appearing in allied reconnaissance photos from 1945, mass normal looking like prisoners (not starved) from german concentration camps at liberation, and so on..)

Originally Posted by adonys

- it seems that Poland was kind of rogue state before WWII, and was deploying concentration camp in which the german population from german territories occupied by Poland at the end of WWI was exterminated, resulting in Germany attacking Poland to stop this (should it be really a coincidence the fact that most of the german WWII concentration camps were actually situated in Poland?!!)

Now for this you definitely have to provide proof sources (but please none from NPD et al). My German grandparents lived in these occupied territories and they were at very good terms with their Polish neighbours. I don't say there had been no conflicts but from there to make allegations that there had been an extermination plan by Poland there is a distance larger than that from Earth to Mars.

Originally Posted by adonys

- Eisenhower's DEF camps a the end of the war, in which between 900000 and 1700000 german POWs were starved to their deaths

So basically it was in some sort of "allied death camps" that one fifth of all military death in Germany were killed? Doesn't sound very realistic ...

Originally Posted by adonys

Britain civil casualties for the whole WWII are like 67.000 people.. while only in the dresden the infamous allied bombing raids killed around 200000 people.. yet the german are the criminal ones

All readers please beware: The source of this number of dead at Dresden is no one less than Goebbels himself. Serious historians concord that it was less. It does not make wrong or right the bombing which is another debate. What I find here very much debatable though is that some want to relativise by comparing numbers of dead which does absolute dishonour to the dead on both sides. I refute this kind of approach.

Originally Posted by adonys

- the most incredible of them all.. until you start digging for truth..: it seems that there were no mass gas executions in german concentration camps, but just allied pot war victory propaganda (skeleton like humans pictures were in fact presenting typhus infected prisoners, germans actually using cyclone B gas to disinfect the clothes of the prisoners in order to stop typhus disease and fleas spreading, clothes disinfection chambers actually having metal sealing doors and gas evacuation systems, while the alleged human gas chambers were not having those, huge gas chambers output bins presented as so after the war are not appearing in allied reconnaissance photos from 1945, and so on..)

This is Holocaus denial and some more revisionist crap usually coming from neonazis or the Iranian government ...
And of course the thousands of survivors and witnesses that had gone through the Shoah were all bought by MI6 and CIA. Some tattooed themselves etc. What utter crap. You probably also believe that man had never been on the Moon or the Americans were behind 9/11.


I am really speechless what I have to read. Well, some show their true colours at last.

[adonys]

seeking for truth doesn't make you have colors, sir.

Eisenhower's DEF.. official Wikipedia link..

"Disarmed Enemy Forces (DEF), and—less commonly[1]—Surrendered Enemy Forces, was a U.S. designation, both for soldiers who surrendered to an adversary after hostilities ended, and for those previously surrendered POWs who were held in camps in occupied German territory at that time.[2] It is mainly referenced to Dwight D. Eisenhower's designation of German prisoners in post World War II occupied Germany.[3] Because of the logistical impossibility of feeding millions of surrendered German soldiers at the levels required by the Geneva Convention during the food crisis of 1945, the purpose of the designation—along with the British designation of Surrendered Enemy Personnel (SEP)—was to prevent categorization of the prisoners as Prisoners of War (POW) under the 1929 Geneva Convention"..

"After the DEF designations were made in the early summer of 1945, the International Red Cross was not permitted to fully involve itself in the situation in camps containing German prisoners (POWs, DEFs or SEPs), some of which initially were Rheinwiesenlager transit camps, and even though conditions in them gradually improved, "even the most conservative estimates put the death toll in French camps alone at over 16,500 in 1945""

"Most captives of the Americans and the British were released by the end of 1948, and most of those in French and Soviet captivity were released by the end of 1949, although the last big release occurred in 1956. According to the section of the German Red Cross dealing with tracing the captives, the ultimate fate of 1,300,000 German POW's in Allied custody is still unknown; they are still officially listed as missing.[41]"

they were thought during the following 50 years to be lost to the russians.. but.. recently russians opened their WWII camp prisoner files, and those were not in there..
and don't even try to say russian were trying to hide this number, as they haven't tried to hide all the others which were really attributed to them neither..

or is the german post-war red cross nazi-colored (as you imply by your words) to you too?!!


Yes, the 200.000 killed in dresden is a german WWII official casualty tall (though your Goebells naming of it is tendentious). the official allied post war one is around 25.000.. yet even 25k is more than 1/3 from the WHOLE british WWII civil casualties.. in a single bombing raid over a single german town..

Readers beware: go read official wikipedia "RAF strategic bombing during the Second World War" and the whole World War II city bombing.. a few allied "humanitarian" bombings: Tokio (march 1945 100k people died in a single allied firebombing), Hiroshima & Nagasaki (90,000–166,000 killed in Hiroshima, 60,000–80,000 killed in Nagasaki), Hamburg, (read the allied name of this operation, ie a biblical city name obliterated with all its inhabitants by God's wrath! "killing 42,600 civilians and wounding 37,000 in Hamburg and practically destroying the entire city. The unusually warm weather and good conditions meant that the bombing was highly concentrated around the intended targets and also created a vortex and whirling updraft of super-heated air which created a 1,500-foot-high tornado of fire, a totally unexpected effect"), Dresden (25k) and so on..


also, you seem to overlook the words I've used when presenting those of the points which are still in debate (for example "it seems that there was no systematic mass gas executions campaign in german concentration camps..")

everyone knows that history is written by the victors.. the whole human history is filled up with this.. but that doesn't mean bits f truth can not be surfaced, or that we should not try to ever find them..

I just presented those as food for thought and personal investigation.. have you done this? or it is just your "history" outrage talking for you?

I think you made it very clear to the readers of this forum what kind of thinking you follow.

For those interested to this >1 Mio prisonners were starved to death by Western allied. This is a hypothesis published by Mr. Bacque in a book repeatedly refuted by recognized historians. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Losses

I think I do not need to link anything about Shoah, as there can be no doubt that there had been a huge extermination plan put into action killing millions by Germany at that time.

[adonys]

of course they were "refuted" by "recognized historians".. again, always history is written by the victors.

here's a link regarding the pre-WWII polish atrocities: Polish Atrocities against the German minority in Poland pre-WWII, and another one regarding general WWII atrocities.

it's a theory, which most probably will never be proved, even if it might be real. but you can try to read, and make some personal opinion about it.

also, your attitude, tone and implies are disturbing: I am no nazi, and have nothing to do with them. I do not think that german race is a superior race, and everyone else should go to dirt. I'm not even a german for that!

I do not believe nazis and germans were angels, and haven't committed atrocities during WWII, but I also do not believe the allies to be the divine peace messengers they were posing into.. each nation has his own scum, sick people enjoying doing bad things on other people, and unfortunately those are the real culprits for these.

I just want to know the truth, not just blindly accept propaganda, no matter which color or side that propaganda is. I want to ask questions and learn to use my brain, not sheepingly accept everything others want me to believe is the truth.

[robtek]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Stormcrow

I think you made it very clear to the readers of this forum what kind of thinking you follow.

For those interested to this >1 Mio prisonners were starved to death by Western allied. This is a hypothesis published by Mr. Bacque in a book repeatedly refuted by recognized historians. See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Losses

I think I do not need to link anything about Shoah, as there can be no doubt that there had been a huge extermination plan put into action killing millions by Germany at that time.

You should also post the line above the mentioned article:

Unbalanced scales.svg
The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (January 2009)

[desastersoft]

For Clearence:
The German Historian Commission who stated, that at Dresden where killed "only 25.000" Citizens, was not an independend Commission!

The "Body Count" was made by the "Books of Dead" of Dresden in 1945.
Stormcrow, if you set this Equal to Auschwitz, than you will find out what Number of killed People?
To help you out: The Soviet Army set the Body Count by Books of Dead to 74.000 People. Do you now believe, that only 74.000 People died in Auschwitz? In 1945 the international Red Cross numbered the Cassulties in Dresden by 220.000 People (aafter the War).
Dr. Goebbels personal Diary (i am owning a complete Edition) is talkíng about some between 250.000 - 200.000 People by the Statement of the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (German military High Command). This was not used in Propaganda, just to say it, its the private Diary.

If you do body count, please do it in the same way to all war opponents. Just for fairness .

[Gerbil Maximus]

Originally Posted by adonys

well, actually, after a war, if you want peace and pretend you are not a slaver country, you would offer fair terms for the defeated nation to can cope with. if you offer them enslavement and death, why it seem to you so out-of-the-ordinary for the enslaved county to revolt, if they have the guts to rather prefer death to enslavement?!!

germany was offered none at the end of WWI, so it was the perfect natural thing every sane mind would have to expect from them, namely rise again in war to obtain human peace settlements..

your history learned you some things.. but what if they are not really like that?!!

here's for you some food of thought, go search the internet for information and use your own brain to try to decide which of them are looking as to have really happened:
- it seems that Poland was kind of rogue state before WWII, and was deploying concentration camps in which the german population from german territories occupied by Poland at the end of WWI was exterminated, resulting in Germany attacking Poland to stop this (should it be really a coincidence the fact that most of the german WWII concentration camps were actually situated in Poland?!!)
- Britain starting the night bombing campaign over german cities (ie civil targets), as being the only thing they could do to hurt Germany at the time, and the odious german fuhrer refusing to pay them with the same coin for more than a month or two, until it could bear it no more, and started the british cities bombing campaign (namely London).. just to have the british cry outraged to the whole world how the cruel germans were hitting their civil tragets
- Britain civil casualties for the whole WWII are like 67.000 people.. while only in the dresden the infamous allied bombing raids killed around 200000 people.. yet the german are the criminal ones
- The allied (phosphorus) bombing campaign over german civil targets in order to destroy their homes and therefore obliterate their morale and resolution to continue the war, killing german civilians in their hundreds of thousands, and obliterating most of the german cities from the face of the earth and leaving most of german population without homes was never condemned as war crimes.. yet german leaders were condemned at Nurenberg as war criminals
- Eisenhower's DEF camps a the end of the war, in which between 900000 and 1700000 german POWs were starved to their deaths
- the most incredible of them all.. until you start digging for truth..: it seems that there were no systemaic mass gas executions campaign in german concentration camps, but just allied post war victory propaganda (skeleton like humans pictures were in fact presenting typhus infected prisoners, germans actually using cyclone B gas to disinfect the clothes of the prisoners in order to stop typhus disease and fleas spreading, clothes disinfection chambers actually having metal sealing doors and gas evacuation systems, while the alleged human gas chambers were not having those, huge gas chambers output bins presented as so after the war are not appearing in allied reconnaissance photos from 1945, mass normal looking like prisoners (not starved) from german concentration camps at liberation, and so on..)

Germany was treated so badly after WW1 cos guess what they started a war that virtually destroyed Europe, and add to it they displayed many times (like in WW2) tutonic brutality towards anyone civilians included.

Germany Bombed London by mistake when a He111 got lost. The RAF retailiated and bombed Berlin. Georing being the hot head that he was retaliated with mass raids on London. Thus starting the Blitz of London.

So what if you have rouge states that do bad things, is that the excuse to start world war 2 and destory Millions of lives including Germans?

You cannot justify in any shape or form what Nazisim did in Europe or to the Jewish people anymore than i cannot justify what bomber command did to dresden, but the difference is i can say it would never have happened in Hitler and others had not invaded poland etc.

Its clear you are a holocaust denier, even though your up against an insurmountable amount of evidence.

Dude you will not make me feel sorry for the people in Germany who perpertrated such evil.

I cannot believe I am actually reading this. You sound like the people who lived next door to Belsen and pretended they had no idea.

Believe me I understand a thing or two about warfare and know bad stuff happens on both sides, but you are living a fantasy if you think the treaty was unnecessarily harsh.