Orcs on the March thread

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by atlatea

So, the defense ignoring thing about goblin and orc is because of bug? I mean the dev never intended to work like that?

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I hope the english patch is released soon, because right now, even a few Goblin/Blood Shamans can cause much more damage then what'd be acceptable for units of their level. Regular Goblins are over-powered too, it is almost like their axes ignore physical resistance and defense, especially when they use their slam-back attack.
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Highly doubt it. It is just they wanted to make it strong for when you use them, but they never considered the balance issues when it is used against you, especially at higher levels of play like Impossible where the enemy routinely has waay too much leadership.

I mean, not much point in calling it Orcs on the March if the orcs blatantly sucked.

I think you are probably underestimating the Goblin's TRUE power. They were always potentially strong, because they have very unique abilities.

a) Zeroing In
b) Giant Killer (not sure if this was in the original or not)

Zeroing In means that every round the goblin attacks, his attack goes up by 5. Yes, I said every round. That means as time approaches infinity, the goblin will EASILY achieve +60 attack over your defense, so he will always do 3X more damage than his base, even with a normal attack.

This is not even considering the new orc modifications. Those mods just gave him a chance to do poison damage and a +1 to damage, which is a fairly powerful buff, but nothing compared to its native skill.

Giant Killer means if you dare to use a level 5 to hit it, get ready to take an additional 30% damage from the goblins.

Again, abilities that were around before the modifications.

It is also why my Super Goblin stack is the most damaging stack I have ever created. Thanks to "Unstoppable" ability (again, an ability that existed before the Orcs on the March patch), I have a chance to attack multiple times in a single round. (At least twice so far, not sure if it is capped).

Once my goblins hit +60 Attack over Defense, with 100% crit, I do about 12K per hit easily. And this is not even at maximum leadership yet. Merely like level 37. I've probably already thrown up to 18K per hit too. I think I already projected dealing close to 20-30K by end game. Throw in Orc's "Second command" ability and a Paladin's Second Wind, I throw another 12K+ damage again. Each time I throw, I have a chance to throw yet again and again.

I'm glad they are buffing Goblins more in the next patch. Mwhaha.

[BB Shockwave]

I'm sorry, but that's not what the problem is.

I was facing about 100-120 Goblins in two stacks, and have cast Oily Cloud on them, reducing their ranged damage by 50%. Now, attacking with their ranged attack, they did about 120 damage to my Archmages (on the other half of the screen), who had a pretty high defense. Then, next round... they used these slam-attacks, which killed about 2-3 Archmages for every hit! I checked the descriptions, that attack should not do much more damage then their regular ranged attack, so my guess is, it simply ignores the Oil Cloud de-buff. Oh yeah, and this was round 2, so Zeroing In should not be brought up here. Giant Killer is new for Crossworlds, btw.

For Goblin Shamans, again, the Astral Damage is one thing - sure, no-one has resistance against it. However, it also works as a spell works, cast by your hero - meaning, there is no "attack roll" and the enemy's defense is not taken into consideration. And that is unfair, and should not work this way, because every other spell cast by your creatures so far in AP and TL took defense into consideration - I'm thinking of the Dancing Axes of the Shaman, or the Reign of Fire of the Black Dragons, or the Life Leech of the Demonologist. The Goblin Shaman's attack works like an astral-damage spell cast by your hero, which would indeed not take Defense into consideration. To add insult to injury, the Goblins can even act AFTER they have cast this horribly overpowered spell!

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

I'm sorry, but that's not what the problem is.

I was facing about 100-120 Goblins in two stacks, and have cast Oily Cloud on them, reducing their ranged damage by 50%. Now, attacking with their ranged attack, they did about 120 damage to my Archmages (on the other half of the screen), who had a pretty high defense. Then, next round... they used these slam-attacks, which killed about 2-3 Archmages for every hit! I checked the descriptions, that attack should not do much more damage then their regular ranged attack, so my guess is, it simply ignores the Oil Cloud de-buff. Oh yeah, and this was round 2, so Zeroing In should not be brought up here. Giant Killer is new for Crossworlds, btw.

For Goblin Shamans, again, the Astral Damage is one thing - sure, no-one has resistance against it. However, it also works as a spell works, cast by your hero - meaning, there is no "attack roll" and the enemy's defense is not taken into consideration. And that is unfair, and should not work this way, because every other spell cast by your creatures so far in AP and TL took defense into consideration - I'm thinking of the Dancing Axes of the Shaman, or the Reign of Fire of the Black Dragons, or the Life Leech of the Demonologist. The Goblin Shaman's attack works like an astral-damage spell cast by your hero, which would indeed not take Defense into consideration. To add insult to injury, the Goblins can even act AFTER they have cast this horribly overpowered spell!

Hmm I thought Giant Killer was available for the Furious Goblins at a minimum, but it doesn't seem to be in the manual, so I guess it is new.

Ok, so it is a normal ability, not a "ranged attack", so it bypassed your oil cloud. Sounds fair, considering it drains adrenaline from the goblins. Just call it... "Magic Missile."

Huh? I am fairly certain Dancing Axes is NOT affected by defense (the Defense Score), neither is Reign of Fire, or Life Leech. They are only affected by the unit's resistances, no more, no less. Most higher level monsters do have native resistances, so they might seem to take less damage, but pretty sure you can have a Defense of 999, and it will not change the damage one iota.

So, there is nothing outrageous about the ability bypassing the Defense stat. It just does way too much damage.

You could argue that the computer should NOT be allowed to start with Adrenaline Level 2 with orc armies. I'm not completely sure if this is a passive ability of the Blood shaman or not. If it is, then it is merely a bad game mechanic, where they never considered how deadly this would be on the other end of the stick.

[atlatea]

Hmm I thought Giant Killer was available for the Furious Goblins at a minimum, but it doesn't seem to be in the manual, so I guess it is new.

Ok, so it is a normal ability, not a "ranged attack", so it bypassed your oil cloud. Sounds fair, considering it drains adrenaline from the goblins. Just call it... "Magic Missile."

Huh? I am fairly certain Dancing Axes is NOT affected by defense (the Defense Score), neither is Reign of Fire, or Life Leech. They are only affected by the unit's resistances, no more, no less. Most higher level monsters do have native resistances, so they might seem to take less damage, but pretty sure you can have a Defense of 999, and it will not change the damage one iota.

So, there is nothing outrageous about the ability bypassing the Defense stat. It just does way too much damage.

You could argue that the computer should NOT be allowed to start with Adrenaline Level 2 with orc armies. I'm not completely sure if this is a passive ability of the Blood shaman or not. If it is, then it is merely a bad game mechanic, where they never considered how deadly this would be on the other end of the stick.

Well ,the fact proves that you're completely wrong my friend, BB Shockwave is the one that is right. Ok, i'll do some detailed analysis.

All abilities never bypass defense, ok then, try to use your black dragon reign of fire to hit giant for example, then hit peasant with the same black dragon, do you notice the very high dmg difference, note that both have 0 fire resistance, well... how do you explain that? that's because of giant and peasant high defence difference.

Besides the astral attack and probably the other orcs abilities, there are no abilities (be it skills or talents) that bypass defence status.

Goblin axe thrower in AP doesn't have Unstopable ability, only Zeroing. Check it again for yourself (revert to your AP campaign).

Again you're wrong, dancing axe never bypass defence status, at least in AP, though it seems the same in CW, my lv 5 stacks never bothered by dancing axe, even if it's from hundreds of orc shaman, yet astral attack from goblin shamans and orc shamans (especially goblin shaman) does much more dmg than dancing axe, i have 70% astral resistance and 50% magic resistance. However that dacing axe hit very hard to my low lv stacks, which explain they don't bypass defence status like astral attack.

Note that dancing axe and astral attack of goblin shaman have same damage, yet the astral attack does way more damage than dancing axe. The only explainable reason is that astral attack bypass defence, while dancing axe are not. I know with the same leadership, you can field more goblin shaman, so even if their damage are the same, goblin hit harder, indeed, but why the diffence is so high.

Note that goblin shaman leadership is 130, orc shaman is 200. Let's say you have 4k leadership (20 orc shamans, 30 goblin shamans) and your target has 0 astral and 0 magic resistance, without considering the defence stat, at same leadership goblin shaman should hit with 50% more damage than dancing axe to target with , but the fact proves otherwise, i mean goblin hit like 250-400 % more dmg than dancing axe, reasonable explanation? Astral attack bypass defence.

Ok, i don't care if those shamans are enemies or orc are overpowered (i admitt orcs are the most overpowered race now), but the problem is player can field them. Because orcs are so overpowered, most KB players especially those that never play 2 previous installment, tend to stick with orcs. This limit the troop choice of this game which destroy one of the purpose and beauty of the game.

[BB Shockwave]

Thanks for the confirmation, Atlatea. I think it was a mishap on the developer's side - they wanted an attack that bypasses all Resistances - hence the Astral Damage - but in their error they also made the attack bypass all Defense as well.

I think, after the fix, Goblin Shamans and Blood Shamans will still be powerfull, but not ridiculously over-powerfull. I mean, their attack will still do Astral Damage, something that no enemy has resistances against, thus a Blood Shaman's Astral Strike against a Black Dragon will do more damage then a Shaman's Dancing Axes.

And yeah, the only units who can act again after killing an enemy (or taking damage) in AP were the Gorgul, Gorguana, Demon and Executioner (and the Assassin after using Murder). Goblins, I remember, even with Zeroing in, were laughably weak enemies, I never had any problems against them.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

Thanks for the confirmation, Atlatea. I think it was a mishap on the developer's side - they wanted an attack that bypasses all Resistances - hence the Astral Damage - but in their error they also made the attack bypass all Defense as well.

I think, after the fix, Goblin Shamans and Blood Shamans will still be powerfull, but not ridiculously over-powerfull. I mean, their attack will still do Astral Damage, something that no enemy has resistances against, thus a Blood Shaman's Astral Strike against a Black Dragon will do more damage then a Shaman's Dancing Axes.

And yeah, the only units who can act again after killing an enemy (or taking damage) in AP were the Gorgul, Gorguana, Demon and Executioner (and the Assassin after using Murder). Goblins, I remember, even with Zeroing in, were laughably weak enemies, I never had any problems against them.

Why guess? Let's do the math to truly confirm. If what is said is true, the door swings both ways and it means abilities can converge to 3X damage if Attack/Defense come into play. I just did a quick test, it does! My lone emerald dragon was able to do 160ish damage while sporting a ~+40 attack advantage, but the base damage is only 50-70.

40*0.033 =~ 1.2, so
1.2 + 1 = 2.2 so
(50-70)*2.2 ~ 110-154.

It also means, on the same token, the Orc attacks can never do 3X damage from the base damage, but the base damage is so high, this hardly matters. ;(

I stand corrected, I thought it didn't work that way. This makes me look at the Defense stat in a totally different way now (and the Attack Stat).

I tend to agree it was probably an oversight, or if they intend to have it be a neutral attack (unable to increase and unable to decrease), it should have a lower setting.

Sniffles, in long matches, those goblins started doing some big damage to me. I've always been intrigued by them due to the zeroing in ability.