Nuklear bomb

[katdogfizzow]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Who 'voted not to surrender'?

The war cabinet

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

It is entirely untrue that 'they fought to every last soldier over and over again'.

It IS entirely true whether you choose to believe it or not. See Guadalcanal and Iwo Jima. The Japanese fought to the last man in virtually every engagement, regardless of the odds, which was shocking and intimidating to the U.S. troops.

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

In the Okinawa campaign, large numbers of Japanese troops surrendered for example.

It was the fierce defense of Okinawa that convinced army planners that an invasion would be too costly.

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

I've seen no evidence the Japanese population was any more 'brainwashed' than say the Germans (or even, arguably, than Allied populations).

There's no argument to be had.

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

The term (brainwashed) amounts to little more than cold war propaganda anyway - it certainly isn't recognised by most psychologists.

As a matter of fact it is "recognized". The DSM-IV-TR (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) that is published by* the American Psychiatric Association and provides a common language and standard criteria for the classification of mental disorders) describes this dissociative disorder as "states of disassociation" that occur in individuals that have been subjected to periods of prolonged and intense coercive persuasion and occurs largely in the setting of political reform....)

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

In any case, regardless of the will to fight on, the Japanese no longer had the means, at least on the Japanese mainland

Iran attacked Iraqi machine gun nests armed with BOOKS in the Iran/Irag War. The will to fight on "means" everything. Brainwashed individuals/groups are the biggest threat to human society and must be stopped by any means necessary if they choose to advance.

For the record, I am of course against all nuclear war and do see your point. You're just not understanding history/facts/reality. I was bored and thought I'd help you.


Oh yeah, Im against the bomb in game too....

[AndyJWest]

As a matter of fact it [brainwashing] is "recognized". The DSM-IV-TR (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) that is published by* the American Psychiatric Association and provides a common language and standard criteria for the classification of mental disorders) describes this dissociative disorder as "states of disassociation" that occur in individuals that have been subjected to periods of prolonged and intense coercive persuasion and occurs largely in the setting of political reform....)
...
Iran attacked Iraqi machine gun nests armed with BOOKS in the Iran/Irag War. The will to fight on "means" everything. Brainwashed individuals/groups are the biggest threat to human society and must be stopped by any means necessary if they choose to advance.

I don't have access to DSM-IV-TR, and nor do I have the training to use it to make diagnoses. I'd draw your attention to this (from Wikipedia, but apparently paraphrasing DSM-IV-TR):

The DSM-IV-TR states, because it is produced for the completion of federal legislative mandates, its use by people without clinical training can lead to inappropriate application of its contents. Appropriate use of the diagnostic criteria is said to require extensive clinical training, and its contents “cannot simply be applied in a cookbook fashion”.[19] The APA notes diagnostic labels are primarily for use as a “convenient shorthand” among professionals. The DSM advises laypersons should consult the DSM only to obtain information, not to make diagnoses, and people who may have a mental disorder should be referred to psychological counseling or treatment. Further, a shared diagnosis or label may have different causes or require different treatments; for this reason the DSM contains no information regarding treatment or cause. The range of the DSM represents an extensive scope of psychiatric and psychological issues or conditions, and it is not exclusive to what may be considered “illnesses”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnos...ntal_Disorders

"the DSM contains no information regarding treatment or cause". Or to put it another way, it isn't any use for ascribing the mental state of the Japanese population in the latter stages of WW2.

Can I ask, if you have access to DSM-IV-TR, to let us know if it actually uses the term 'brainwashing' at all?

[katdogfizzow]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Can I ask, if you have access to DSM-IV-TR, to let us know if it actually uses the term 'brainwashing' at all?

Sorry, I forgot the page number. Yes I do/Yes it does


P. 532:
Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders: DSM-IV-TR.
By American Psychiatric Association, American Psychiatric Association

[AndyJWest]

I can't access DSM-IV-TR without a journal subscription, apparently. If the term is in use in clinical diagnosis, it doesn't show up very quickly in a Google search. In looking, I did come across this:

From Brainwashing: The Science of Thought Control by Kathleen Turner. Oxford Universiy Press, 2004 (p.6).
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=H...washing&f=true

Hardly a clinical term in this context...

[AndyJWest]

You have no clue what you're talking/spewing/ranting about....at all. You're literally just making random stuff up.

Do you hold any qualifications which enable you to make diagnoses of medical conditions?

As for who is 'spewing/ranting', I'd suggest that is a matter of opinion. And what exactly have I 'made up'? Can you provide any evidence of this, or is this you ranting?

By and large, this discussion has been conducted in civil terms, if not always with entirely cordial intent. Katdogfizzow's last comment seems well beyond this.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Do you hold any qualifications which enable you to make diagnoses of medical conditions?

As for who is 'spewing/ranting', I'd suggest that is a matter of opinion. And what exactly have I 'made up'? Can you provide any evidence of this, or is this you ranting?

By and large, this discussion has been conducted in civil terms, if not always with entirely cordial intent. Katdogfizzow's last comment seems well beyond this.

My google-fu is strong today lol. Just to clear it up:

"Dissociative Disorder Not Otherwise Specified*
...
3. States of dissociation that occur in individuals who have been subjected to periods of prolonged and intense coercive persuasion (e.g., brainwashing, thought reform, or indoctrination while captive)."

Quick note: A certain religion apparently argued to have the term "brainwashing" removed from the DSM IV because it was associated with the word "cult". That implies it had it's own category in the DSM III. Now it is referred to, but not mentioned specifically (which makes no sense).

Splitter

[Dozer_EAF19]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Quick note: A certain religion apparently argued to have the term "brainwashing" removed from the DSM IV because it was associated with the word "cult". That implies it had it's own category in the DSM III. Now it is referred to, but not mentioned specifically (which makes no sense).

Splitter

The word 'cult' is referred to, or the religion? Is this the religion that the underbelly of the Internet goes on anonymous mass protests about? Or is it the University of Chicago's economics department - I hear they could be regarded as a cult...

right, I really should be in bed, judging by that last paragraph.;..

[AndyJWest]

I think you've quoted the wrong posting from me, Splitter (in post #160). Thanks for finding the 'brainwashing' reference in the DSM though, it clears that up anyway. Katdogfizzow's claim that brainwashing is "recognised" by the American Psychiatric Association doesn't bear up. It is an undefined phrase used once in passing, not a diagnostic term at all.

[katdogfizzow]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

And what exactly have I 'made up'? Can you provide any evidence of this, or is this you ranting?

You literally made this up:

"The term (brainwashed) amounts to little more than cold war propaganda anyway - it certainly isn't recognised by most psychologists." --AndyJWest

[katdogfizzow]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

"the DSM contains no information regarding treatment or cause".

Or to put it another way, it isn't any use for ascribing the mental state of the Japanese population in the latter stages of WW2.

Probably because the only known treatment is the barrel of a gun. Its the perfect way to describe the Japanese population in the latter stages of WW2

Or to put it another way,

You have no clue what you're talking/spewing/ranting about....at all. You're literally just making random stuff up.