water cannon

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

you must have been asleep at school when they explained the concept of democracy: you said "I don't want guns completely legalised in my country just because someone wants to collect them. Or gets off on shooting stuff.." I don't want the Xfactor or Jordan on TV, but alas, I have to take it, because there's a part of this democratic country that likes that s**t. You don't even know what it is that you don't want.

whereas inviting me to shut up is very democratic uh? How old are you, Winny? 12?

Unfortunately for you guns are common, as you said you've been at gunpoint twice (very bad luck btw, even in Manchester), and again, I have nothing against your choice of not having guns, chapeau to you and your sense of security based on this farse of society. .

Democracy is about majority. I don't know of any real major opposition to the current UK gun laws. It's a minority that are affected by it.

Anyway this isn't an argument about democracy, it's about guns. (you keep wandering off..) TV, Jordan..? again you're in a minority, both are hugely popular (I don't understand why either).

Like I said, I've come to a decision, I'm happy with the current laws.

I'm 37 by the way.. I told you to shut up because you were being rude..Grow up. I don't agree with you. So what?

Start a movement.. see how much support you get..

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

Democracy is about majority. I don't know of any real major opposition to the current UK gun laws. It's a minority that are affected by it.

uh, that's a safe assumption: you're basically saying that the majority is right. I'm sure you might have heard of Nazi Germany at some point in your life.. I'm surprised I'm even discussing the sense of democracy really, it's obvious I give people's education for granted..

Anyway this isn't an argument about democracy, it's about guns. (you keep wandering off..) TV, Jordan..? again you're in a minority, both are hugely popular (I don't understand why either).

I wander off to give you examples that are more tangible, since you never had a gun or know what it entitles to own/operate one. The fact that Jordan & Co. are popular tells a lot about the cultural level of this country. They're hugely popular among working class, or "chavs" as you like saying here. So if chavs are the majority, shall we leave the ruling of the country in their hands? Let's change the Union Jack to a Burberry one, innit blud?

Like I said, I've come to a decision, I'm happy with the current laws.

That's good for you, but in a democracy, even minorities have their right to express their opinion. You're thinking more along the lines of an enlightened regime, which is what we're living in at the moment.

I'm 37 by the way.. I told you to shut up because you were being rude..Grow up. I don't agree with you. So what?

..what are you supposed to mean with that? Is it another case of "I don't know how to answer so I'll shout them to STFU". My dear keyboard hero, there was a time when you would be able to make such aggressive statements, bear the consequences of it (most likely a broken nose), then go home and learn from it. Nowadays you'd probably call the police and report the aggression, or do it from a pc, where you know you're safe and can get the worst out with no consequences. You're the frustrated individual, not me. I can live in a world of guns and know how to behave/handle them, you can't simply cos you've been told it's bad (unless it's Northern Ireland, or Afghanistan, or Iraq) and obey like a good sheep.

Start a movement.. see how much support you get..

I don't need to, I'm fine with the possibilities I'm given at the moment.
Once again, your beloved government just had the courage to propose to shut down social networks in case other riots happen.. don't you really see what they're trying to do to your freedom??

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

uh, that's a safe assumption: you're basically saying that the majority is right. I'm sure you might have heard of Nazi Germany at some point in your life.. I'm surprised I'm even discussing the sense of democracy really, it's obvious I give people's education for granted..

Where did I say I was right? There is no wrong or right in this.. It's about what people, and what I want. I'm expressing my opinion and I cannot be wrong. It's not a matter of fact it's a matter of opinion.

Democracy lets people with different opinions vote for what they want.
Remember, you're the one who told me that because I disagreed with you I was un-democratic - It is not me who has a distroted sense of democracy it is you.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

That's good for you, but in a democracy, even minorities have their right to express their opinion. You're thinking more along the lines of an enlightened regime, which is what we're living in at the moment.

...are you for real? You say I have no understanding of democracy? I know that minorities are allowed to express thier opinion - It's a democracy so everyone can, Majority included.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

..what are you supposed to mean with that? Is it another case of "I don't know how to answer so I'll shout them to STFU". My dear keyboard hero, there was a time when you would be able to make such aggressive statements, bear the consequences of it (most likely a broken nose), then go home and learn from it. Nowadays you'd probably call the police and report the aggression, or do it from a pc, where you know you're safe and can get the worst out with no consequences. You're the frustrated individual, not me. I can live in a world of guns and know how to behave/handle them, you can't simply cos you've been told it's bad (unless it's Northern Ireland, or Afghanistan, or Iraq) and obey like a good sheep.

What is your problem?

Because I don't agree with you you assume I'm a sheep? I said STFU because you called me "selfish, discriminatory and anti-democratic" and I am none of these things and it made me angry.

I am just expressing my personal view and I decided I wouldn't like more relaxed gun laws in the UK. I like it as it is.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I don't need to, I'm fine with the possibilities I'm given at the moment.
Once again, your beloved government just had the courage to propose to shut down social networks in case other riots happen.. don't you really see what they're trying to do to your freedom??

Here you go again.. what have guns and twitter got to do with each other?


I have the freedom to not want more guns in the UK - You are a hypocrite.

No matter how much you dislike it.. I don't want more guns in the UK.

Now leave me to the freedom of my own opinion. Like I already said if it's that important to you then start campaigning for mre relaxed gun laws.
Go to your MP.
You'll find that you are in the minority, and the way democracy currently works that means you just have to deal with it.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

Where did I say I was right? There is no wrong or right in this.. It's about what people, and what I want. I'm expressing my opinion and I cannot be wrong. It's not a matter of fact it's a matter of opinion.

Democracy lets people with different opinions vote for what they want.
Remember, you're the one who told me that because I disagreed with you I was un-democratic - It is not me who has a distroted sense of democracy it is you.

you're completely missing my point, I don't know whether you don't get it or you dont want to get it.

...are you for real? You say I have no understanding of democracy? I know that minorities are allowed to express thier opinion - It's a democracy so everyone can, Majority included.

same as above.

What is your problem?

Because I don't agree with you you assume I'm a sheep? I said STFU because you called me "selfish, discriminatory and anti-democratic" and I am none of these things and it made me angry.

if you can motivate why you don't want more guns in the UK with valid points then fair enough, but if you can't and just blurt it out like that, then I'm afraid you are part of the ovine category.

Anger is a dangerous feeling, it's instinct, we can't really get rid of it, but we can control it. I haven't said I don't want to listen to your opinion cos I want more guns, I am here to listen, so please, explain me why you don't want more guns in the UK.

I am just expressing my personal view and I decided I wouldn't like more relaxed gun laws in the UK. I like it as it is.

Well neither do I, I don't want more relaxed gun laws, in fact I want stricter ones! That would allow people that are deemed capable and responsible enough to handle a gun to have all the guns they want, and rest assured that they won't make any difference to your life.

Here you go again.. what have guns and twitter got to do with each other?

...again, seriously? It's about what the Government is trying to do to you, not just guns. They can't face a problem, they take it off you. Ever wonder why, with all the issues related to alcohol and the billions it costs us every year to sort problems out, they don't do anything to control that?

I have the freedom to not want more guns in the UK - You are a hypocrite.

yes, you do, it'd be interesting to know why, cos you've been at gun point and it shocked you? Cos if that's the case all you need to do then is grow a pair, sonny... but I'm sure it's not the case, and you have valid arguments against firearms.

No matter how much you dislike it.. I don't want more guns in the UK.

It's your feud, not mine, I don't care if you want more guns, less guns, daisies or pink elephants. I know what I want, it's a Government that gives trust to its citizens and doesnt play big brother with us lot.

Now leave me to the freedom of my own opinion. Like I already said if it's that important to you then start campaigning for mre relaxed gun laws.
Go to your MP.
You'll find that you are in the minority, and the way democracy currently works that means you just have to deal with it.

sure, you're entitled to your opinion like anybody else, but since this is a forum, where people exchange opinion, be ready to meet people whose opinion may differ from yours, and be ready to give valid arguments to defend your position, otherwise, you should better STFU.

I don't get why a Spitfire is better than an Enfield anyway, but I'm sure you have an explanation for it.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Anger is a dangerous feeling, it's instinct, we can't really get rid of it, but we can control it. I haven't said I don't want to listen to your opinion cos I want more guns, I am here to listen, so please, explain me why you don't want more guns in the UK.

Very patronising, thanks.
Basically I just don't want more lethal weapons in the UK. I'm quite happy with the current laws.
I have kids, It's a personal choice, I've not been swayed by anyone.
I'm not particularly anti gun, just happy with the way things are.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

...again, seriously? It's about what the Government is trying to do to you, not just guns. They can't face a problem, they take it off you. Ever wonder why, with all the issues related to alcohol and the billions it costs us every year to sort problems out, they don't do anything to control that?

I'm very aware of what the government is trying to do, thanks. They are regulating firearms. I'm not affected by it so I'm not bothered.

Alcohol? Did prohibition not happen in your world?
If you want to see democracy in action try banning Alcohol in the UK...
-Never gonna happen-

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

yes, you do, it'd be interesting to know why, cos you've been at gun point and it shocked you? Cos if that's the case all you need to do then is grow a pair, sonny... but I'm sure it's not the case, and you have valid arguments against firearms.

Grow a pair sonny? Who do you think you're talking to? That's just offensive and patronising and takes no account of who I am. You are very judgemental.

I wasn't particularly shocked no.
1st time it happend I was in a Post office, I was a customer, armed robbers came in, they had a sawn off, I just did what I was told.

2nd time was an attempted mugging. I didn't get shot, he didn't get my wallet. I think I broke his jaw but I didn't hang around to find out.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

sure, you're entitled to your opinion like anybody else, but since this is a forum, where people exchange opinion, be ready to meet people whose opinion may differ from yours, and be ready to give valid arguments to defend your position, otherwise, you should better STFU.

What? Are you serious? The reson we are havng this argument is because I posted an opinion that differed to yours. Which you then jumped all over me for! I've been patronised, disrespected, called names, had my intelligence questioned all by you because I dont agree with you. You should read your own advice. You are the very definition of hypocrisy. I never once said you were wrong. I just accept your opinion and carry on with mine.

I don't see why I should have to defend and justify my position on this to someone I don't know. I'm entitled to my opinion.

As for freedom, what freedom? there are 100's of laws you must abide to.
Do we just change or get rid of the ones you don't like? Why not get rid of them all then we'll all be 100% free.

Guns or no Guns is a question of preference, not right and wrong. You have tried to turn it into right and wrong and have been pretty offensive too.

You would not act this way if I was in the room.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by winny

Very patronising, thanks.
Basically I just don't want more lethal weapons in the UK. I'm quite happy with the current laws.

I'm sorry man, but guns are still legally imported in the UK everyday.

I have kids, It's a personal choice, I've not been swayed by anyone.
I'm not particularly anti gun, just happy with the way things are.

so is it because you're afraid for your children? I'm afraid for my children too, but it's not fear of firearms, they're the last of my concerns, I'm afraid of the shallowness of our society, of paedos, of poor education, of wrong values.

I'm sorry, and I'm not taking the mick, it's still not clear why you're against firearms.

I'm very aware of what the government is trying to do, thanks. They are regulating firearms. I'm not affected by it so I'm not bothered.

No they haven't, in fact they haven't changed a thing after the Cumbria shooting, which was quite surprising to me actually. Please if you have time and really care about the topic, spend some time reading the regulations.

Alcohol? Did prohibition not happen in your world?
If you want to see democracy in action try banning Alcohol in the UK...
-Never gonna happen-

I am not talking about prohibitionism, I'm talking about a campaign like the one against smoke, why doesn't that happen? Please answer to this, because as a non-British citizen I struggle to understand the self-destructive attitude of binge drinking. Brits have one of the most driven and effective ways of gathering together and make things happen, but why it happens only for certain things? Alcohol has done way more victims than any gun massacre, still it's acceptable in our society.

Grow a pair sonny? Who do you think you're talking to? That's just offensive and patronising and takes no account of who I am. You are very judgemental.

it was meant as a provocation, as I'm sure you know. I knew it wasn't the case, and wasn't actually directed at you, if you got offended I apologise.

I wasn't particularly shocked no.
1st time it happend I was in a Post office, I was a customer, armed robbers came in, they had a sawn off, I just did what I was told.

2nd time was an attempted mugging. I didn't get shot, he didn't get my wallet. I think I broke his jaw but I didn't hang around to find out.

I had similar experiences, plus my time in the Army, when I've been under fire in several occasions (once even under friendly fire, by far the most frustrating experience). It's life, and one wishes it would never happen, or if it did, that you can tell the story, but again, it has no connection with my will to possess firearms, I could have been in a life threatening situation under a knife, a bat or 20 folks, it doesn't matter the mean, it's the perpetrators.

One of the things I've done in my life and that I'm very grateful for is following a Krav Maga course, and I (unfortunately) put it to use in 3 different situations. Of these three, only one was under a firearm threat, and I've surprised myself on how quickly I reacted. I was at a light with my window down, a guy runs towards me as he was crossing the road and points a gun at my face shouting me to get out: I raised my hands, quickly grabbed the pistol and pushed it towards my windscreen, jamming it with his hand between my window and the windscreen, then moved forward until he let go.

I drove to the closest police station, got in and handed what I only then realised was a blank firing gun.

We all have our horror stories, that's why I prefer living in the quiet British countryside.

What? Are you serious? The reson we are havng this argument is because I posted an opinion that differed to yours. Which you then jumped all over me for! I've been patronised, disrespected, called names, had my intelligence questioned all by you because I dont agree with you. You should read your own advice. You are the very definition of hypocrisy. I never once said you were wrong. I just accept your opinion and carry on with mine.

nananah, look back man, look how you delivered your opinion.

I don't see why I should have to defend and justify my position on this to someone I don't know. I'm entitled to my opinion.

Are you really telling me you can't even defend your own opinion to a stranger?

As for freedom, what freedom? there are 100's of laws you must abide to.
Do we just change or get rid of the ones you don't like? Why not get rid of them all then we'll all be 100% free.

the good old saying "my freedom ends where yours begins" still applies, the society we live in is just the referee for this match called life.

Guns or no Guns is a question of preference, not right and wrong. You have tried to turn it into right and wrong and have been pretty offensive too.

You would not act this way if I was in the room.

there is right and wrong in everything, it's all about validating the two sides. And I would still defend my ideas, being in the same room would actually help, since I find communicating via forum extremely frustrating and mutilated in terms of quality. We might argue, we might agree or agree to disagree, who knows. I can come to Manchester (my fav pub is there) and talk with you about guns, aeroplanes and rights, but I'd rather talk about these things than pretend it's all ok in our society.

You still haven't told me why a Spitfire is better than an Enfield.

[von Pilsner]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

there is right and wrong in everything, it's all about validating the two sides.

Many problems do have more than one solution and not all answers are correct for everyone.

If the guy likes the current laws in the UK then he likes them, it does not make his opinion wrong or bad.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm sorry man, but guns are still legally imported in the UK everyday.

Thank you for finally talking to me like I'm an adult.
I know guns are imported, I'm not (as you may have thought) stupid.
I know that the main route into Manchester for Guns in the 80's and 90's was through the use of baggage handelrs at Manchester airport who were also being paid by the gangs. I know you can't stop it.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

so is it because you're afraid for your children? I'm afraid for my children too, but it's not fear of firearms, they're the last of my concerns, I'm afraid of the shallowness of our society, of paedos, of poor education, of wrong values.

I'm sorry, and I'm not taking the mick, it's still not clear why you're against firearms.

I can't put it any simpler than I just don't like them (Don't get me wrong, I have a bookshelf full of Millitary history, firearms history, etc.. I undersand thier millitary value). I just don't like the fact that a machine designed to kill people could be made more easily available for use by the general public.

I'm sorry that this 'catch all' law means you can't shoot stuff, but for every responsible firearms person there will be someone who isn't as responsible.

I share the same concerns,but you're assuming I'm 'against' firearms, I'm not. I just don't see the need for anyone to own a semi or fully automatic weapon in the UK, or a handgun for that matter.
If anything I'd like to see illegal possesion more firmly punnished.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

No they haven't, in fact they haven't changed a thing after the Cumbria shooting, which was quite surprising to me actually. Please if you have time and really care about the topic, spend some time reading the regulations.

Eh? you say they don't regulate firearms then tell me to read the regulations..?

I don't care a lot about this topic. The reason I'm still here is because of the way you spoke to me, not to change your mind or to have mine changed.
I'm standing up for myself.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I am not talking about prohibitionism, I'm talking about a campaign like the one against smoke, why doesn't that happen? Please answer to this, because as a non-British citizen I struggle to understand the self-destructive attitude of binge drinking. Brits have one of the most driven and effective ways of gathering together and make things happen, but why it happens only for certain things? Alcohol has done way more victims than any gun massacre, still it's acceptable in our society.

I cannot explain the British attitude to alcohol. It baffles me. It's a symptom of the same problem that caused the looting sprees, no prospects, no interest in the future, no concept of consequence and selfishness. There is a real 'screw you, I'll do what I want' attitude around at the moment.
Again we're off track here.. The British are a strangley self destructive race, I don't know why.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

One of the things I've done in my life and that I'm very grateful for is following a Krav Maga course, and I (unfortunately) put it to use in 3 different situations. Of these three, only one was under a firearm threat, and I've surprised myself on how quickly I reacted. I was at a light with my window down, a guy runs towards me as he was crossing the road and points a gun at my face shouting me to get out: I raised my hands, quickly grabbed the pistol and pushed it towards my windscreen, jamming it with his hand between my window and the windscreen, then moved forward until he let go

.

I just got lucky with my experience. I just tried the whole " I'll do what you want, just relax and don't shoot me" I also asked that he leave me my wallet and take the money and cards as the wallet was a gift from my dead mother (it was a gif but she's not dead!) I was basically trying to get him to slow down a bit so I could think..

He looked over his shoulder as he was taking the cards out of my wallet and at that point I just thought that if he looked over his shoulder again I'd hit him as hard and as fast as I could. He looked over his shoulder again and I ended up with a broken hand

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Are you really telling me you can't even defend your own opinion to a stranger?

No, what I meant was I don't need to justify myself, you questioned my intelligence and my ability to make informed decisions.. My opinion is out there now.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

there is right and wrong in everything, it's all about validating the two sides. And I would still defend my ideas, being in the same room would actually help, since I find communicating via forum extremely frustrating and mutilated in terms of quality. We might argue, we might agree or agree to disagree, who knows. I can come to Manchester (my fav pub is there) and talk with you about guns, aeroplanes and rights, but I'd rather talk about these things than pretend it's all ok in our society.

There is not right and wrong in everything. Is a pencil right or wrong? Or a duck? And who's right and wrong are we using? Yours or mine? (they may differ)

There is no right and wrong with guns. You've used the argument that guns are neither good nor bad, yet you're quite happy to put right and wrong into use when talking about them. Gun usage can never be classified by using such emotive terms as 'right and wrong'. Necessary or not necessary is the ony criteria.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

You still haven't told me why a Spitfire is better than an Enfield.

I dunno..
Because a Sitfire is a classic WW2 Warbird (which I like) and Enfield is a London borough (which I'm not as keen on)?

I'll sum up.. You like to own guns, I don't see the need to own one. You see the regulations as erroding your freedom. I just see it as another bit of legislation that doesn't affect me in any way.

Guess what, we probably like different foods, and football teams, and TV shows,

To say that you jumped all over my post because of the way I said it just sounds like a poor excuse for some poor behaviour.

All I said was I don't want more guns.

Can we move on now?