water cannon

[Wolf_Rider]

When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty.


-Thomas Jefferson

[AndyJWest]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty.


-Thomas Jefferson

...and when any debate about crime, anywhere on the internet, ends up regurgitating the endless obsession of US politics with guns, there is boredom. There is more to life than shooting people. Get over it...

[Wolf_Rider]

you have me at a bit of a loss there andyjwest... get over what?

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

...and when any debate about crime, anywhere on the internet, ends up regurgitating the endless obsession of US politics with guns, there is boredom. There is more to life than shooting people. Get over it...

And when there is any chance for you to regurgitate your endless obsession with political correctness, Andy, you take it. Double standard much?

[AndyJWest]

Originally Posted by BadAim

And when there is any chance for you to regurgitate your endless obsession with political correctness, Andy, you take it. Double standard much?

I was unaware that not being obsessed with shooting people was anything to do with political correctness. I'd assumed that it was instead entirely normal. Evidently I was wrong...

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

I was unaware that not being obsessed with shooting people was anything to do with political correctness. I'd assumed that it was instead entirely normal. Evidently I was wrong...

you watched far too much Hollywood stuff man. Why you have this fixed idea that if you want to own a gun is just cos you want to shoot someone?!

[unreasonable]

Note how some US contributors to this thread have changed the argument (and I have summarised rather than respond to specific posts because there are so many):

- The main point at issue has been whether restrictive gun laws, in the UK, are, on balance, a good thing, given the context of the recent youth riots.

- Generally US contributors have said that the UK laws are not a good thing, since they mean that good citizens are limited in their ability to defend themselves against bad citizens, or against tyrannical government.

- Generally UK contributors have said that the UK laws are a good thing, since they prefer to be unarmed, which is an increasingly untenable position in an armed society, and they believe that the threats of crime and tyranny are better addressed through the normal workings of constitutional monarchy.

So far so reasonable.....

- There has been no comment from Euro contributors (that I have noticed), about the right of US citizens to decide their own gun laws, own guns in the US, or the desirability or feasibility of the US moving to a gun law system similar to that of the UK.

- In contrast, some US contributors have held up the specific premises of the US political system as though they were universal truths: in particular the premises that disarming the people must necessarily lead to tyranny, and that democracy is always just mob rule.

In my view this point of view fails to take into account the specific history, culture and background of different societies. Just because something is "self-evident" to you, it does not make it "self-evident" to everyone else, or for that matter " a fact". But at least these issue should be capable of being addressed by rational discourse with a minimum of rhetoric.

- And yet some US contributors (if the cap fits, wear it) have reacted angrily as though their own rights are under attack in their own country, and resorted to extraordinary vitriol, questioning the age, motivations, courage and and knowledge of those voicing contrary views through a barrage of ad hominem attacks and smears by association. Shame on you!

[ruggbutt]

Originally Posted by unreasonable

- And yet some US contributors (if the cap fits, wear it) have reacted angrily as though their own rights are under attack in their own country................Shame on you!

What hasn't been discussed and I feel is every bit as important is the surveillance the British people are under. You can't walk 20 feet w/out government cameras watching..............IMHO that's even worse than them being unarmed. Brits can't be trusted, their government's actions say this with it's actions. There's a huge difference in our two cultures but I have to agree that the England of two decades ago isn't the same country. The people seem more "beat down". That was my impression anyway.

[unreasonable]

Originally Posted by ruggbutt

What hasn't been discussed and I feel is every bit as important is the surveillance the British people are under. You can't walk 20 feet w/out government cameras watching..............IMHO that's even worse than them being unarmed. Brits can't be trusted, their government's actions say this with it's actions. There's a huge difference in our two cultures but I have to agree that the England of two decades ago isn't the same country. The people seem more "beat down". That was my impression anyway.

I agree fully - I only go back to the UK for a few days every couple of years these days, but when I meet family and friends they are often very angry about constant surveillance. Most of them seem to think it has become widespread because the police and local authorities use it as a stealth-tax mechanism. The feeling is that any minor transgression by a member of the largely law abiding middle classes is criminalized and followed up with full bureaucratic efficiency, while the real criminals are largely left alone since dealing with them is difficult and expensive. I do not remember anyone, however, suggesting that the answer is to arm the citizenry.

Having just watched the PM's speech on the telly, I get the impression that Mr Cameron is trying to tap into that mood and attempt a turn around in the state of British society. I wish him all the best, but suspect that the established forces defending the status quo will be too strong.

[Wolf_Rider]

Linking crime and guns... well, all banning (another prohibition) guns does, is to make them more expensive on a blackmarket and give the owners a status.

Gangs still do drive-by attacks in countries where guns are banned.