Surprising quality gun camera footage from japanese theatre.

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Splitter

158. This is perhaps a convenient opportunity
to say a word about the ethics of shooting
at aircraft crews who have "baled out"
in parachutes.

159. Germans descending over England are
prospective Prisoners of War, and as such
should be immune. On the other hand, British
pilots descending over England are still
potential Combatants.

160. Much indignation was caused by the
fact that German pilots sometimes fired on our
descending airmen (although, in my opinion,
they were perfectly entitled to do so), but
I am glad to say that in many cases they refrained
and sometimes greeted a helpless
adversary with a cheerful wave of the hand."

This surprises me.

Someone wrote that Churchill himself intervened in shooting pilots. Yet allowed to bomb German cities late in the war. Ok to bomb civilians but not shoot chutes?

No matter how hard I try I can't believe ethics got anything to do with Churchill's intervention. I think he saw that if British pilots start shooting chutes in Battle of Britain, then German pilots will begin to do the same, and it is British who will lose in that game for they wont get pilots back to flying. Captured German pilots could also been interrogated about German squadron strenghts and stuff. I have understood British got notable advantage in that their pilots could continue flying about the next day after shot down in Battle of Britain. How would had the Battle of Britain ended if all chutes were shot down on both sides? I don't know, but definetly Churchill didn't want to gamble that, which was wise.

*

While #159 makes sense, it can be argued that chute pilot has surrendered (given up) and therefore should not be shot down. If we compare that to Japanese early war doctrine where Japanese pilots did not have parachutes so that they could not "give up" (and would have to fight harder), not shooting chutes makes even more sense ethically, thus effectively countering RAF ethics about accepting chute shooting in the name of potential future combatant argument.

So I see #159 as just a way to try make British pilots accept that even if Germans shoot chutes we can't do so because Germans are "entitled" to do so.

*

If we can talk about ethics I might say shooting a chute is unethical since the chute pilot has surrendered. But if we can't talk about ethics there is pragmatical view which says chute pilots are potential future combatants and has not been captured (eliminated) yet. Like in France where resistance groups helped pilots to get back to England.



Edit: "There is no challenge" and "helpless" arguments are valid in sports and honour, not in war. For the best time to attack is when the enemy is helpless.


Edit: Huh, it seems that shooting chutes in war is not unethical because the chute pilot is in state of "tactical retreat", and there is not much reason for the victorious pilot to gamble in that will the chute pilot be captured or not. You can freely hate me because of this conclusion.

[winny]

Churchill understood what they had to do and what they didn't need to do.

They didn't need to kill pilots in thier 'chutes, they had to bomb Germany.

War is full of paradoxes and contradictions.

[moilami]

Originally Posted by winny

Churchill understood what they had to do and what they didn't need to do.

They didn't need to kill pilots in thier 'chutes, they had to bomb Germany.

War is full of paradoxes and contradictions.

Well, Churchill was not stupid. I don't believe a second he thought shooting chutes is like shooting sailors without a ship in the sea because they are very different things. Sailors without a ship are ready to be captured, there is no question about that. Chutes on the other hand are very different in many ways. Sailor analogy was just great analogy in making stupids (lol no offence meant) to believe shooting chutes is bad. Aren't British seafaring people?

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

Interview with Fritz Boost Luftwaffe Pilot Part 1

"P-51 pilot went past waving before he shot only at the wing of the FW190"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6AIp...eature=related

[moilami]

Those are great stories about chivalry in crazy times. However things are not very simple. Honour and ethics are a little bit different things. Some pilots maybe tried to be like knights as everyone should try to be.

But why they were flying in the first place? To be a knight of the sky or to defend their country and people to make the war end? To do both? To do both was impossible. Either you were knight of the sky and let the enemy live, or you defended your people and wanted to end the war.

Which was better? I can't answer to that. Both were honourable and ethical things to do, and in the same time both were dishonourable and unethical to do. The pilot who you let to live could kill 1000 civilians or shoot 10 chutes next week. Were you not supposed to protect your people? Not blaming anyone or pointing with finger. Absolutely not doing that.

But again, you are free to hate me


Edit: This was response to I/ZG52_Gaga.

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

No no there's no problem ..

This is the fact : great power comes with great responsibility

Meaning that when it is up to you to decide for someone's death

then you really show what you're made of ...

off course circumstances always perplex the situation at hand ...

[moilami]

Originally Posted by I/ZG52_Gaga

No no there's no problem ..

This is the fact : great power comes with great responsibility

Meaning that when it is up to you to decide for someone's death

then you really show what you're made of ...

off course circumstances always perplex the situation at hand ...

Right. Even if it would be against most of your principles. Sacrifice everything and be the merciless killer.

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by winny

All this 'I'd kill a guy in a chute' talk is fine until it's you hanging from the chute.

Er, what? It's no different than thinking it's ok for a sniper to shoot a soldier in the distance - that's also not great when you're the soldier in the distance, but it's a war. Personaly I hate the thought of having to shoot anyone, I'm very glad I'm not involved in a war. But in a war I think those in chutes over their own territory are a valid target.

Originally Posted by Splitter

"According to ACM H. Dowding in his despatch submitted
to the Secratary of State for Air on August 20, 1941:
Supplement to The London Gazette 11 September, 1946.
PDF page 1, Supplement page 4553
items 158 to 160.

158. This is perhaps a convenient opportunity
to say a word about the ethics of shooting
at aircraft crews who have "baled out"
in parachutes.

159. Germans descending over England are
prospective Prisoners of War, and as such
should be immune. On the other hand, British
pilots descending over England are still
potential Combatants.

160. Much indignation was caused by the
fact that German pilots sometimes fired on our
descending airmen (although, in my opinion,
they were perfectly entitled to do so), but
I am glad to say that in many cases they refrained
and sometimes greeted a helpless
adversary with a cheerful wave of the hand."

Oh hello, that's basically what I said.

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

Er, what? It's no different than thinking it's ok for a sniper to shoot a soldier in the distance - that's also not great when you're the soldier in the distance, but it's a war. Personaly I hate the thought of having to shoot anyone, I'm very glad I'm not involved in a war. But in a war I think those in chutes over their own territory are a valid target.

Exactly. You make an excellent analogy there. And I can imagine chute shooting or sniping would both suck to do. I am not a killer. However it can be argued that one should be able to do both. Now, talk about sacrifice. If you get what I mean.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

Er, what? It's no different than thinking it's ok for a sniper to shoot a soldier in the distance - that's also not great when you're the soldier in the distance, but it's a war..

I said nothing about the rights and wrongs of it, I mearly pointed out that if you were hanging from a 'chute and an enemy aircraft was approaching you'd be thinking 'hope he dosn't shoot me'

Sniping is a different thing totally, different operation, different objective, different execution. You simply cannot apply morals to war and to try and argue a wrong with another wrong, it is pointless. Most pilots saw thier jobs as destroying as many aircraft as possible, then up to them what they do to the pilots. A snipers job is to kill people.