Friday 2010-02-25 Development update:Interview by Grégory Lemasson/Discussion Thread

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox

I will think about it. Should be useful for all doesn't matter which one of devices they are using.

Currently we are using customizable and saved separate profiles for each aircraft. They can be selected and loaded by user for using with his beloved aircaft. The is is also tuned curves for Joy.

How many of the aircraft in SoW have visible functional trims in the cockpit? Real pilots could probably see this before take off and in flight. Then our off-set makes no difference and causes no problems (it does in IL-2, because IL-2 often does not have these cockpit details). When airborne we can just see or feel if we need to trim so center doesn't even matter there.

Optional helper: Small, transparent pop-up window (at any time) showing the position of our flight controls. Useful for more than just checking trim positions.

Profiles: Force feedback tweaks, and the 'force sensing joystick' tweaks (I posted topic a week ago suggesting how it should work) could be useful for each aircraft. Our force feedback joystick motors are not strong. Also some hardware doesn't work that well with too much or little forces involved. Flying a heavy plane can make it function badly while a normal one is ok. Profile tweak can fix so we don't have to alt-tab each time.

Force feedback for SoW. Much better than IL-2? There's a big spring deadzone in IL-2 from the old FFB drivers, and the center of forces is always in the same place.

Trims and joystick center - This is a big topic for controllers. IL-2 trims control surface deflection directly, making it possible for us to let a spring joystick rest in at center yet still fly straight. Can even fly aircraft completely without having a joystick connected.

In real aircraft, trims only changes the forces on the stick, allowing the pilot to push the stick to a new position (required for flying straight) and keep it there without force. With the arrival of the G940 (and other existing no-absolute centering joysticks - Tarmac Aces in France make some amazing things) and probaby more to come, we could allow trims to work like real trims; change the force feedback, not the control surface deflection (they still permit the control column in game to move further during compressability though, as this cannot be simulated purely through a consumer type joystick).

If using curves with a sharp center point on the joystick it can become slightly less intuitive when the stick is off-set. If trimmed forward because of high speed (dive etc), moving the stick can give a different response to input. But (edit) we never need to move the stick far for trimming anyway (except in exterme situations, but then we are not gunning, or the plane simply cannot move much anyway due to compressability), and we don't have to use a 100% spiked curve for the joysticks. A bit flatter, larger center of the curve and it won't be noticed. The offset in our hand also makes it obvious the stick is not centered.

[Oleg Maddox]

From this point(above) will read-answer tomorrow.

[ECV56_Lancelot]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

In real aircraft, trims only changes the forces on the stick, allowing the pilot to push the stick to a new position (required for flying straight) and keep it there without force...

I´m at work and can´t search properly for a good source to confirm what i´m stating, but i think you are mistaken. It might be true what you say with aircrafts where the stick does not have direct physical connection to the control surface, but have connection to an artificial force system. But on WW2 aircraft, and modern light airplanes, where the stick have´s direct physical connection with the control surface, using the trim does imply moving the control surface, and by doing this, you are releived of the effort of continously have to apply force over the stick.
The trim could work by moving the control surface directly, or moving a tab that moves corespondly the control surface, but triming the aircraft does imply that the control suface is moved.

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

Gagboy, that game sounds..umm..I rather not write down those flashes of my imagination here That other game sounded very interesting, maybe a version of 2010 could be made?! Duke Nukem became history so now..

MikkOwl. Your ideas are good, expecially the ones with the sticks. But indicators on screen..well..maybe for testing etc. In real aircraft you can see from the trim wheel or and indicator near it the position of your trim. This in most planes. And with SoW having very detailed cockpits, from we have seen so far, this pose no problem to actually look at your trim wheel for the indication. Spitfire has this trim position Up/down in the dashboard etc.

Well that settles it. Oleg has no excuse for not permitting off-set adjustment of trims. The problem for him to tackle is instead: "are my SoW models awesome enough for the task? ". And, it is optional after all. If anyone doesn't want to use it they don't have to. But anyone can benefit a lot from it with trimming, as it makes our poor little devices so much less twitchy and crazy sensitive with trimming in game. And if we reduced range to make it less twitchy, we can even get increased range again by using off-set trims (positioning the range at the 'right part of the trim' makes sure no part of axis is wasted).

Originally Posted by ECV56_Lancelot

I´m at work and can´t search properly for a good source to confirm what i´m stating, but i think you are mistaken. It might be true what you say with aircrafts where the stick does not have direct phisical connection to the control surface, but connection to an artificial force system. But on WW2 aircraft, and modern light airplanes, where the stick have´s direct physical connection with the control surface, using the trim does imply moving the control surface, and by doing this, you are releive of the effort of contnously have to apply force over the stick.
The trim could work by moving the control surface directly, or moving a tab the moves corespondly the control surface, but triming the aircraft does imply that the control suface is moved.

Well yes, I know about how trim tabs work, and that only describes the mechanism behind the result: as far as the control surface and stick goes, only the forces acting on the control column changes. If stick is kept centered and trim tabs are moved, nothing at all happens, the control surface does not move (only that tiny tab).

I don't know how non-trim tab aircraft function, but I am not really aware of any WW2 combat aircraft having that sort of trim. If you know of any I would be happy to read up on them.

If they move the whole surface directly, completely independant on the control column, then yes, they should be like now (just far smaller range of movement). But I'm fairly sure they are by far the exception, and that nearly all aircraft are using trim tabs.

[ECV56_Lancelot]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

If stick is kept centered and trim tabs are moved, nothing at all happens, the control surface does not move (only that tiny tab).

You are correct, and now i think understand the problem you are refering. The problem comes of what happens inside the sim whem we use trim, and what happens to our joystick in the real world.
I think IL-2 hadles well trim, because when you aply trim, inside the sim the virtual control surface moves, as the virtual stick. But meanwhile on the real joystick without any force feedback, you have to release the joystick so you are not adding more command that the needed and giveng by the trim, and you get the result of not having to push you joystick anymore (if its pitch trimming, for example).
But how can you make that while your real joystick is on its center position, when you apply trim, nothing must happen. You cant, because on the virtual world of the sim you are moving the tab and the control surface, and also the virtual stick.

At least that we use a force feedback joystick that when you move the trim on the sim and at the same time the real joystick chage position accordingly, i don´t see how the problem can be solved. The problem is that our joystick do not move according to the virtual stick, thay go to the center position, instead of staying on the trimmed position.

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by ECV56_Lancelot

You are correct, and now i think understand the problem you are refering. The problem comes of what happens inside the sim whem we use trim, and what happens to our joystick in the real world.
I think IL-2 hadles well trim, because when you aply trim, inside the sim the virtual control surface moves, as the virtual stick. But meanwhile on the real joystick without any force feedback, you have to release the joystick so you are not adding more command that the needed and giveng by the trim, and you get the result of not having to push you joystick anymore (if its pitch trimming, for example).
But how can you make that while your real joystick is on its center position, when you apply trim, nothing must happen. You cant, because on the virtual world of the sim you are moving the tab and the control surface, and also the virtual stick.

At least that we use a force feedback joystick that when you move the trim on the sim and at the same time the real joystick chage position accordingly, i don´t see how the problem can be solved. The problem is that our joystick do not move according to the virtual stick, thay go to the center position, instead of staying on the trimmed position.

I don't see any reason why Storm of War would have to use IL-2's trim and joystick system. If a force feedback stick is detected and we choose to use this real-trim behaviour, then the control column in the simulator will move only from movement of the joystick. Trims will change the force feedback only (and permit the control column to move more when controls start to freeze up at high speed, just like in IL-2).

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

How many of the aircraft in SoW have visible functional trims in the cockpit? Real pilots could probably see this before take off and in flight. Then our off-set makes no difference and causes no problems (it does in IL-2, because IL-2 often does not have these cockpit details). When airborne we can just see or feel if we need to trim so center doesn't even matter there.

Optional helper: Small, transparent pop-up window (at any time) showing the position of our flight controls. Useful for more than just checking trim positions.

Profiles: Force feedback tweaks, and the 'force sensing joystick' tweaks (I posted topic a week ago suggesting how it should work) could be useful for each aircraft. Our force feedback joystick motors are not strong. Also some hardware doesn't work that well with too much or little forces involved. Flying a heavy plane can make it function badly while a normal one is ok. Profile tweak can fix so we don't have to alt-tab each time.

Force feedback for SoW. Much better than IL-2? There's a big spring deadzone in IL-2 from the old FFB drivers, and the center of forces is always in the same place.

Trims and joystick center - This is a big topic for controllers. IL-2 trims control surface deflection directly, making it possible for us to let a spring joystick rest in at center yet still fly straight. Can even fly aircraft completely without having a joystick connected.

In real aircraft, trims only changes the forces on the stick, allowing the pilot to push the stick to a new position (required for flying straight) and keep it there without force. With the arrival of the G940 (and other existing no-absolute centering joysticks - Tarmac Aces in France make some amazing things) and probaby more to come, we could allow trims to work like real trims; change the force feedback, not the control surface deflection (they still permit the control column in game to move further during compressability though, as this cannot be simulated purely through a consumer type joystick).

If using curves with a sharp center point on the joystick it can become slightly less intuitive when the stick is off-set. If trimmed forward because of high speed (dive etc), moving the stick can give a different response to input. But (edit) we never need to move the stick far for trimming anyway (except in exterme situations, but then we are not gunning, or the plane simply cannot move much anyway due to compressability), and we don't have to use a 100% spiked curve for the joysticks. A bit flatter, larger center of the curve and it won't be noticed. The offset in our hand also makes it obvious the stick is not centered.

The features of this is freezed already. Open was only about trims.

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by Oleg Maddox

The features of this is freezed already. Open was only about trims.

Frozen, ok But I was asking: force feedback taking any step forward (significantly) compared to IL-2? And then I made a wishlist request on how it could/should behave.

[Oleg Maddox]

Originally Posted by MikkOwl

Frozen, ok But I was asking: force feedback taking any step forward (significantly) compared to IL-2? And then I made a wishlist request on how it could/should behave.

Can't say you right now. We put it in the final development.
As for my personal opinion - FF doesn't reflect real things. No one existed. And in realistic flight sim really FF is more bad then the good feature comparing to real life.

So the work over FF is the very secondary in our plan. This should be important for totally arcade game.

In the past I tried to communicate with all manufactures of FF joysticks to make some standard in forces, that would reflect more realistic things... Really only Trustmaster and partially Saitek were listening me in the past.

Hope with BoB this communication will be again up and probably we may set the stadards in future. But untill that time to spend a lot of time for FF I personally very dislike.

This should be done by some third party - special driver for any FF joy.
Manufactures should follow that standard (non MS SDK code, that we were using in the past with Il-2). Should be tunable special separate tool not in the sim, only external.

I can't spend right now time to explain all my thoughts about this issue.

You should talk to real pilots asking their opinion about joys with FF.
Probably they will say the same... also they would say that Joystick do not replace real control column 100% in feel of aircraft control.

With some of manufactures we had in the past the speech about what should be done for realistic control column useful in flight sims... But the price would be really more higher... and effect on the market (to sell it) will be not so successfull.

However I have several good ideas and drawings how to make it with more or less commercial success. But for this - SoW should be on a horse...

[Flanker35M]

S!

Thank you for the answer, that covered it all. I agree on the checklist etc. IT is a lot of work to implement correctly as you would have to know the procedures Luftwaffe, RAF and others used for their checks. And investing time for research it, code and implement = not worth it in terms of returns it gives. And most users would not use the feature after a few times anyway. So best is to just implement those that are used, not too hard to implement and give immersion to the sim.

Museums..you should visit some plane museums in Finland too, some nice planes to see. I have great interest in the VL Pyörremyrsky (Typhoon) and if it could be done for IL-2, we took pics and such at museum last time visited. 1 was made and it flew 27h and 31 flights. Performance surpassed Bf109G in climb and turn easily, speed was somewhat the same.

I am sure Ville and Raimo did speak about them when meeting you. Boy was I green in face when they showed the pics and told how it was Maybe some day could haul my son and myself to Moscow, Monino would be great to see and MAKS