Bf110 Defensive Circle

[PeterPanPan]

Hi,

From the various books I have read, it seems that it was common practice for groups of Bf110s to form up into a defensive circle when under attack. Each aircraft covered the one in front making this a pretty effective, albeit defensive, manoeuvre.

Just wondering, Oleg, if the AI 110s will adopt this tactic - would be most excellent!

PPanPan

[swiss]

This tactic has been proven to be ineffective against the smaller, faster and more agile fighters.

Didn't even work against the outdated swiss planes in 1940, the Swiss attacked them from a steep dive, the Krauts lost(-more planes than the Swiss...).

[Igo kyu]

The Luffberry Circle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufbery_circle

Also used by allied fighters in North Africa, and successfully attacked by Marsaille.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Marseille

To counter German fighter attacks, the Allied pilots flew "Lufbery circles" (in which each aircraft's tail was covered by the friendly aircraft behind). The tactic was effective and dangerous as a pilot attacking this formation could find himself constantly in the sights of enemy pilots. Marseille often dived at high speed into the middle of these enemy defensive formations from either above or below, executing a tight turn and firing a two-second deflection shot to destroy an enemy aircraft.

[K_Freddie]

Also used by a Japanese squadron, but was destroyed by US pilots attacking in the opposite direction to the circle..

Gentlemen (and ladies )... please do not follow tactics 'by the book'.. you will lose your virtual life.

[=KAG=Bersrk]

Originally Posted by swiss

This tactic has been proven to be ineffective against the smaller, faster and more agile fighters.

Didn't even work against the outdated swiss planes in 1940, the Swiss attacked them from a steep dive, the Krauts lost(-more planes than the Swiss...).

Actually, this taktic prooved to be EFFECTIVE against large numbers of enemy aircrafts. It was during BoB, later over Greece and USSR. This taktic was widely used by ZG units untill 1943, and worked good even againts La-5's and Yak-9's.

Also, it was a main defending taktiks of Il-2 regiments, and 100% prooved its effectiveness against Bf109's and Fw190's.

So, dont cheat us

About Swiss in early june 40:

4.6.40:

6./ZG1 lost 1 Bf110C, Uffz. Albert Killermann/Uffz. Gotfried Wohl both killed by Swiss Bf109D.
In return, II./ZG1 pilots shot down Bf109D (J-310) from Fliegerkompanie 15.

8.6.40:

Around 12:00 II./ZG1 pilots bounced C-35 of FK1 and shot it down.
Then, a hour later, II./ZG1 was attacked from above, and lost 4 Bf110:
Fw. Otto Beiter(KiA)/Ogefr. Robert Hink(WiA)
Uffz. Alois Scholz(KiA)/Ogefr. Walter Hofmann (KiA)
Fw. Manfred Dahne(WiA)/Ogefr. Herbert Klinke (WiA)
Oblt. Gerhard Kadow (StaKa)(WiA)/Uffz. Fritz Wonnicke (KiA)

In return, they shot down Bf109D (J-328 ) from FK15 and heavy damaged Bf109D from FK21, piloted by Oblt. Borner.

[AndyJWest]

I fail to see how any tactic that involves going around in circles over enemy territory until you get low on fuel can be much use. Once you form the circle, you are effectively a fixed target. Your opponent has two choices: (a) station enough aircraft above the circle to make whoever breaks out first a dead duck. Then wait for volunteers. Or more subtle, pull back far enough that the first pilot to break from the circle stands a decent chance of getting away...

Either way, as long as the Bf-110s are circling, they are making things worse for themselves. Tactics like his only make sense in situations of near absolute air superiority.

[Skoshi Tiger]

When on a server where I am out numbered 5-1 I generally fly slowly in a straight line. It is normal to loose 2 or more of the pack attacking you from team kills, collisions and shoulder shooting as the opponents jostle for a firing possition. Even if only two them go down your team is still ahead!!!!!

cheers

[=KAG=Bersrk]

Defencive circle was effective in:

-Jabo missions, prooved in BoB and later in battles on Eastern Front in 41-43.
Group of Bf110\s JaBo, after seeng their alloted target, formed a wide circle, and attacked one after one in shallow dive, then strafing all what survived under the bombs. After job was done, they climb still in circle (defending themself if there were enemy fighters) - and dive away for home, using amazing Bf110 dive abilityes. If that taktics was used properly, losses were really minimal.

-Bomber escort missions. Usually (in early stages of BoB) Bf110's formed defending circle OVER bombers, and moved together with bombers on the course. If RAF fighters choose to attack Bf110's - bombers have clear space to target, and bomb it. If RAF fighters choose to attack bombers - silly choise, keeping in mind a battery of 6 guns, diving on You from behind. All things changed 180*, when Bf110 were ordered to low-speed close-escort, and were tied to bombers. That decesion means a gravesone for many Bf110 crews...

-fighter sweep missions - when Bf110 saw climbing RAF interceptors, they made Abwehrkreuz and, as waited result, most of RAF fighters were busy to attack it, spending ammo and fuel, but usually without any good result. At the moment of german bombers arrive on scene, RAF fighters usually must return to base and land because of fuel/ammo out.

Yes, sometimes there were exeptions, but that exeptions proove a rules.

[Feathered_IV]

Originally Posted by PeterPanPan

Hi,


Just wondering, Oleg, if the AI 110s will adopt this tactic - would be most excellent!

PPanPan

It's been asked before. The devs did not comment though.

[=KAG=Bersrk]

I think its because AI taktiks is not done yet.
But I think it could be done in future, when AI will be done.

I would like to quote my good friend and respectfull Bf110 specialist:

Originally Posted by John Vasco

I'd like to touch on the defence circle (or the 'attack' circle as some crews disparagingly called it). A couple of examples:

1. The Croydon raid of 15th August 1940 involving the Bf 110s of Stab, 1. & 2./Erprobungsgruppe 210. Going in to attack the airfield, RAF fighters were already seen. The simple tactic,therefore, upon releasing their bombs was to climb and form a defensive circle(s), which was done. None were shot down while in the circle. What had to happen next was on a command, those aircraft in each circle would break for home as an entity. Wolfgang Schenck (and I hate quoting this guy on a regular basis, but he had so much information and knowledge that it would have been foolish to ignore it) told me that when he rejoined his Staffel (1./Erpr. Gr 210, the old 1./ZG 1) on 4th September 1940, he had chatted with Martin Lutz about the loss of Rubensdörffer on this raid. Lutz told him that 'Rubs' had got the break from his 'Stab' circle all wrong, resulting in Rubs (CO), Fiedler (Adjutant) and Koch (TO) being shot down, and Willi Benedens (who was attached as supernumerary to the Stabsschwarm) getting back to Calais-Marck in a badly damaged Bf 110. For the other two circles, 1. Staffel lost one Bf 110 (Beudel) and 2. Staffel lost two Bf 110s (Ortner and Habisch), with recent evidence pointing to the likelihood that Habisch's Bordfunker, Elfner, inadvertently shot through the rear controls of his aircraft in trying to fend off RAF fighters, thereby shooting his own aircraft down. SO, for the two Staffeln who got the break from the circle correct, losing one aircraft each to 18 RAF fighters (9 each from 32 and 111 Sqdns.) seems to be pretty good damage limitation. And yes, I know you must factor in the Stab losses overall, I'm just pointing out what the situation was with a well executed circle and break for home.

2. The defensive circle set in place on 27th September by ZG 26 when Erprobungsgruppe 210 set out to attack the Parnall factory at Yate near Bristol. ZG 26 set up a holding circle near the coast to await the return of 210 from the target. Now I don't know how good Luftwaffe Intelligence was with regard to the placement and movement of RAF Squadrons, but 504 Sqdn moved to Filton OVERNIGHT and were in place wonderfully to head-off 210 as they approached their target. Perhaps Luftwaffe Intelligence believed there would be no RAF squadrons in the vicinity of the target, and so believed 210 could have a free run in on it, while ZG 26 waited near the coast where it was believed the real intervention would take place. Hence the ZG 26 position and holding circle, in place to protect and ferry the bombing 110s back across the Channel, and mix it with any RAF squadrons that rose to intercept. We know that 504 intercepted 210 in the Bristol area, which was probably not part of the Luftwaffe plan, and more RAF squadrons intercepted around the coastal area and further inland, with consequent losses to the 110 units.
The above are just two examples of how the circle was used in the 'so-called' Battle of Britain (mustn't offend some people who say it never took place...!!!)

Another point I would like to quickly touch upon which has been mentioned in this thread, is the deployment of the Bf 110 fighter force. From the many interviews Peter Cornwell and I (and I'm sure Chris Goss also from his own research) did with Bf 110 crews, all those in the pure fighter units said that their role was close escort to bombers (immer, immer Begleitschutz). When you then consider the speed of bombers, and a fighter being tied to close escort to them, you can then see the huge disadvantage they were at when attacked by RAF fighters who might only be flying at just above two-thirds of their maximum speed. In other words, a Spit or Hurricane flying at 250-280 mph going after a 110 at about 200 mph. That is one hell of a disparity in air speed, and ability to avoid a sudden attack. That then lends some credence to the view that they were deployed incorrectly, and is supported by the famous request from a famous 109 pilot who asked to be allowed to have his unit roam free to hunt down the enemy and not be tied as any kind of escort to bombers. The decision to tie the Bf 110s to close bomber escort was a death warrant for many young Bf 110 crews as a result. One 110 pilot told me also that too many pilots respected the advice they received, of not pushing their engines to the limit. His attitude was that once in combat or heading for home he would push both engines to the max, and didn't give a toss about the life of an engine - his primary concern was to get back to base and leave it to the mechanics to decide if he'd buggered an engine on his 110 and it needed replacement.