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IL-2 Sturmovik The famous combat flight simulator.

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  #1  
Old 06-25-2010, 04:10 PM
swiss swiss is offline
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This tactic has been proven to be ineffective against the smaller, faster and more agile fighters.

Didn't even work against the outdated swiss planes in 1940, the Swiss attacked them from a steep dive, the Krauts lost(-more planes than the Swiss...).

Last edited by swiss; 06-25-2010 at 04:12 PM.
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  #2  
Old 06-25-2010, 05:20 PM
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Igo kyu Igo kyu is offline
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The Luffberry Circle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufbery_circle

Also used by allied fighters in North Africa, and successfully attacked by Marsaille.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Joachim_Marseille

Quote:
To counter German fighter attacks, the Allied pilots flew "Lufbery circles" (in which each aircraft's tail was covered by the friendly aircraft behind). The tactic was effective and dangerous as a pilot attacking this formation could find himself constantly in the sights of enemy pilots. Marseille often dived at high speed into the middle of these enemy defensive formations from either above or below, executing a tight turn and firing a two-second deflection shot to destroy an enemy aircraft.
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Old 06-25-2010, 07:54 PM
K_Freddie K_Freddie is offline
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Also used by a Japanese squadron, but was destroyed by US pilots attacking in the opposite direction to the circle..

Gentlemen (and ladies )... please do not follow tactics 'by the book'.. you will lose your virtual life.
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  #4  
Old 06-26-2010, 04:07 AM
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=KAG=Bersrk =KAG=Bersrk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiss View Post
This tactic has been proven to be ineffective against the smaller, faster and more agile fighters.

Didn't even work against the outdated swiss planes in 1940, the Swiss attacked them from a steep dive, the Krauts lost(-more planes than the Swiss...).
Actually, this taktic prooved to be EFFECTIVE against large numbers of enemy aircrafts. It was during BoB, later over Greece and USSR. This taktic was widely used by ZG units untill 1943, and worked good even againts La-5's and Yak-9's.

Also, it was a main defending taktiks of Il-2 regiments, and 100% prooved its effectiveness against Bf109's and Fw190's.

So, dont cheat us

About Swiss in early june 40:

4.6.40:

6./ZG1 lost 1 Bf110C, Uffz. Albert Killermann/Uffz. Gotfried Wohl both killed by Swiss Bf109D.
In return, II./ZG1 pilots shot down Bf109D (J-310) from Fliegerkompanie 15.

8.6.40:

Around 12:00 II./ZG1 pilots bounced C-35 of FK1 and shot it down.
Then, a hour later, II./ZG1 was attacked from above, and lost 4 Bf110:
Fw. Otto Beiter(KiA)/Ogefr. Robert Hink(WiA)
Uffz. Alois Scholz(KiA)/Ogefr. Walter Hofmann (KiA)
Fw. Manfred Dahne(WiA)/Ogefr. Herbert Klinke (WiA)
Oblt. Gerhard Kadow (StaKa)(WiA)/Uffz. Fritz Wonnicke (KiA)

In return, they shot down Bf109D (J-328 ) from FK15 and heavy damaged Bf109D from FK21, piloted by Oblt. Borner.
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Last edited by =KAG=Bersrk; 06-26-2010 at 04:35 AM.
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  #5  
Old 06-26-2010, 04:57 AM
AndyJWest AndyJWest is offline
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I fail to see how any tactic that involves going around in circles over enemy territory until you get low on fuel can be much use. Once you form the circle, you are effectively a fixed target. Your opponent has two choices: (a) station enough aircraft above the circle to make whoever breaks out first a dead duck. Then wait for volunteers. Or more subtle, pull back far enough that the first pilot to break from the circle stands a decent chance of getting away...

Either way, as long as the Bf-110s are circling, they are making things worse for themselves. Tactics like his only make sense in situations of near absolute air superiority.
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Old 06-26-2010, 05:03 AM
Skoshi Tiger Skoshi Tiger is offline
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When on a server where I am out numbered 5-1 I generally fly slowly in a straight line. It is normal to loose 2 or more of the pack attacking you from team kills, collisions and shoulder shooting as the opponents jostle for a firing possition. Even if only two them go down your team is still ahead!!!!!

cheers
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:40 AM
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=KAG=Bersrk =KAG=Bersrk is offline
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Defencive circle was effective in:

-Jabo missions, prooved in BoB and later in battles on Eastern Front in 41-43.
Group of Bf110\s JaBo, after seeng their alloted target, formed a wide circle, and attacked one after one in shallow dive, then strafing all what survived under the bombs. After job was done, they climb still in circle (defending themself if there were enemy fighters) - and dive away for home, using amazing Bf110 dive abilityes. If that taktics was used properly, losses were really minimal.

-Bomber escort missions. Usually (in early stages of BoB) Bf110's formed defending circle OVER bombers, and moved together with bombers on the course. If RAF fighters choose to attack Bf110's - bombers have clear space to target, and bomb it. If RAF fighters choose to attack bombers - silly choise, keeping in mind a battery of 6 guns, diving on You from behind. All things changed 180*, when Bf110 were ordered to low-speed close-escort, and were tied to bombers. That decesion means a gravesone for many Bf110 crews...

-fighter sweep missions - when Bf110 saw climbing RAF interceptors, they made Abwehrkreuz and, as waited result, most of RAF fighters were busy to attack it, spending ammo and fuel, but usually without any good result. At the moment of german bombers arrive on scene, RAF fighters usually must return to base and land because of fuel/ammo out.

Yes, sometimes there were exeptions, but that exeptions proove a rules.
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  #8  
Old 01-08-2012, 08:27 AM
Allons! Allons! is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by =KAG=Bersrk View Post
Defencive circle was effective in:

-fighter sweep missions - when Bf110 saw climbing RAF interceptors, they made Abwehrkreuz and, as waited result, most of RAF fighters were busy to attack it, spending ammo and fuel, but usually without any good result.
Hi Berserk, Moin Thor,

what was this Abwehrkreuz? Tried to Google it but no hit.

Best, Allons!
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  #9  
Old 01-08-2012, 11:06 AM
JtD JtD is offline
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I guess it's Abwehrkreis, which is the literal meaning of defensive circle.

Kreuz = cross.
Kreis = circle.
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