how are these 109s turns 180 with out penalties?

[Widow17]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

If you're not a high flying Spit or Hurricane diving onto your targets, I'll be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

Blame the mission designers then, not the aircraft. It's not the Hurricane's fault that the AI bombers come in at 3500 meters.

If you're in any fighter, low on the deck, you're a sitting duck for anyone. Even a bad pilot.


You're implying I'm somehow against people having fun? I'm definitely not. What puzzles me is when people fly on full-real servers and then imply that they don't like to fly high and dive on their opponents. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do.

Any time you engage at Co-Energy, you're doing it wrong.

Well, but finally its a game and it can be great fun to try and find tactics to fight a enemy at co-e or even at e-disadvantage. If i only had one life that would be different. But just diving on a opponent with e advantage is kinda boring to me.

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

If you're not a high flying Spit or Hurricane diving onto your targets, I'll be the first to say you're doing it wrong.

Blame the mission designers then, not the aircraft. It's not the Hurricane's fault that the AI bombers come in at 3500 meters.

If you're in any fighter, low on the deck, you're a sitting duck for anyone. Even a bad pilot.


You're implying I'm somehow against people having fun? I'm definitely not. What puzzles me is when people fly on full-real servers and then imply that they don't like to fly high and dive on their opponents. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do.

Any time you engage at Co-Energy, you're doing it wrong.

Sigh.

YES, EVERYONE should be attempting get above their targets and dive down on them.

The way the mission is designed is EXACTLY where I'm trying to place all of this '109s are better than Spits and Hurricanes' stuff. The 109 has many TECHNICAL advantages that can be negated by TACTICAL advantages. Those TACTICAL advantages get taken away by the SITUATIONAL REQUIREMENTS of the mission struture.

OF COURSE anyone who is low on the deck is a bad situation. 109 or Spit or Hurricane. But if you're trying to tell me that at equal altitude there's no advantage in being in a 109 (pilot skill considered equal), then you're bonkers. See Recoilfx's posts.

You're SUPPOSED to destroy targets in France/England and protect your targets in France/England. No where in there do I see 'get lots of kills!'. If getting lots of kills was the objective of the map, I bet we would see people jockeying to get higher and higher above each other. You can bet I wouldn't be going out below 18k ft.

But I CAN'T!!!! If I want to defend a target, 18k ft is USELESSSS!!!$!@#$O(#*&%)(%&)(W$*%&

So, the ONLY thing I can try to do is try to get together a skilled bunch of RAF pilots to fly low bomber cover and high fighter cover cap and work together. This is very hard to do with untrained people. I'm working on it, but it's hard.

Let's repeat:

1. I'm not advocating anyone in a 109 change how they play. Keep doing what you're doing.
2. I'm not even advocating that the flight models need to be changed. I certainly would LIKE to have a Spitfire that is more Fire than Spit, but it's not going to do anything to solve the "problems" being presented by 109s diving on their targets. It's not a problem. It's a tactical mistake made by the Spitfire pilot.
3. I AM saying, and have been in nearly every post I've made, that this is mostly VENTING FRUSTRATION at a mission structure that is friendly to the single or pair 109 pilot and very unfriendly to groups of RAF pilots. We need to seriously up our game to deal with something that a relatively adequet pilot on BLUE side can execute no problem (stay high, dive on target - WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO). The appropriate counter measure to this (the low/high cover) is not something that your adequet red pilot can do. It takes some skill.

My suggestion is this as an example. Get 4 pilots to fly together on comms. For some people, that's hard enough. Fortunately, it's getting easier as people get to know each other. Then get two of them to fly at 5,000 ft. Get the other two to fly at 15,000 ft. See if the 15k boys can keep eyes on the 5k boys over the course of 30 minutes. Constantly keep eyes on. That's not easy for experienced pilots I think, let alone fresh ones.

EDIT: Getting frustrated again, but only because you seem to be misreading what I'm saying in previous posts. Let's just call it miscommunication and get back to flying. This'll be my last post on the subject of all this.

[robtek]

That is where teamwork, aka TS3, comes into play!
Bombers should arrange for a escort, low fighters should arrange for a high cover.
Failing to do this, renders all lamenting worthless.

[ACE-OF-ACES]

In real life.. The dog fight was the exception to the rule and team work was the rule

In sim life.. Team work is the exception to the rule and the dog fight is the rule

Which is no big whoop..

Until some simmer tries to use his sim experance as some measure of reality

[Bewolf]

Hm, I thought the FMs are porked and everybody is aware of that? Why the debate?

[Insuber]

The debate purpose is to spend some time chatting about our hobby, while waiting for more exciting times. As far as the porked FMs, IMO they are not so much porked to prevent som healthy fun. Spits and Hurries are being killed by 109s, and 109s are downing Spits and Hurries. G.50s are destroyed by both parties.

Cheers!

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by Insuber

The debate purpose is to spend some time chatting about our hobby, while waiting for more exciting times. As far as the porked FMs, IMO they are not so much porked to prevent som healthy fun. Spits and Hurries are being killed by 109s, and 109s are downing Spits and Hurries. G.50s are destroyed by both parties.

Cheers!

Hehe, was that a slip of the tongue, so to speak? I like to think we shoot down more than just G.50s!

[JG52Krupi]

Last time I checked spits were good but too slow still could kick ass... hurris fast but poor cockpit... hmmm I have kicked and had my ass kicked flying both red and blue.

Mastiff I suggest you unbunch your panties while waiting for the new patch.

[KG26_Alpha]

Reminds me of the old complaints to 1 C Team and Oleg

The Russians "Oleg all our planes are porked"
The Germans "Oleg all our planes are porked"
The British "Oleg all our planes are porked"
The Americans "Oleg all our planes are porked"
The Italians "Oleg all our planes are porked"
The Japanese Hmmm "never really heard from them"

It kinda funny to really think that you are flying in an historical manner in an historically correct aircraft in such a sterile environment.

Matching the numbers and tactics is the best to hope for, the rest is pure conjecture and assumption as to who did what and how, we can play at it and hit the fly button again, back then it was a fight for survival and the risk taking practised in this game in real life would have probably resulted in an early death for the pilot and his fellow countrymen.

Its a game have fun with it

.

[ATAG_Keller]

Ok, I know the old saying "Never interrupt you're enemy when he's making a mistake" but in the interest of making things more challenging I’m going to offer some advice to the Red pilots flying on ATAG.
If you want to complete objectives you need to get together with your bomber pilots and tell them that they have to fly where the fighters will have the best chance of protecting them. I am constantly finding Blenheim pilots flying on the wave tops heading directly from their bases in a straight line towards their targets. Climb! Get those Blennys up to 3-4000m, cross the channel a long way to the East or West, and descend behind enemy lines.

I’ve flown a lot of bomber missions on ATAG, and I can count on one hand how many times I’ve been attacked by an enemy fighter before dropping my payload. Sure, my He-111 missions might take 45 to 75 minutes from takeoff to landing, but patience is a virtue. Don’t rush it guys, flying through the "trapezoid of terror" that goes from Littlestone to Ramsgate, across to Dunkirk then Wissant, in a bomber is sheer madness.

Time may be of the essence, but 3 unsuccessful missions straight through the belly of the beast is still worth less than one successful mission flying around all the action.