Realistic pilots?

[JG4_Helofly]

That's the question. Do we need more realistic pilots?

Some years ago, there was a thread about pilot fatigue in this forum. I found it interesting and I think it might also be interesting to discuss this again.
What do I mean by realistic pilots? I mean things like pilot fatigue due to continuous high G and very hard manoeuvres.
What I don't like in IL2, is the fact that you can throw your aircraft in any manoeuvre you like without penalty (except for the new G limit). People can constantly pull extrem manoeuvres all day long. And in my opinion, that makes dogfights look unrealistic. Many times you see people ride the grey out limit for extended periodes and still manage to shoot down the enemy with a precise shoot after many wild manoeuvres. I remember a russian pilot interview. The pilot said that after some time at (only) 3G he could barely read the gauges in the cockpit.

My point is: At the moment it is unrealistically easy to shoot down enemys under extrem flight conditions and people tend to turn and spin their aircraft forever when on the defensiv, instead of simply diving away.

I mean, nearly every arcade shooter game has stamina limitations for the player. Some more sofisticated then others. But not our simulation. Why?

Things like that increase the realisme very much. A good exemple is the mod "Project reality" for Battlefield 2. The soldier can't run forever, he can't shoot accurately instantly but has to stand (or lie) still for several seconds, etc.
It's harder but more realistic and more fun. On the other hand we have Il2 with super humans in the cockpit which always have perfect vision and unlimited strength.

My idea would be to simply create a standard pilot modell which would (in addition to the already existing blackout / redout) have things like blurred vision and limited strength when performing extrem manoeuvres for an extended periode of time.

So, that's the basic idea. Now it's your turn, what do you think about that?

[Daniël]

Sounds really good. One more thing to think about in a dogfight. Don't get too tired!

[Bricks]

As it was pointed out before, pilots already have values like stamina and stuff like that. If you maintain medicore G you are likely to black out as well as if you make a high-G-turn. Also if you already blacked out in a given time before, it's more likely you black out again.

All this is just superficial, granted, but I'm pretty sure that if fatigue is modeled for the aircraft the pilot will not be forgotten.

Just because nothing like that was posted as a definite statement, yet (at least afaik), doesn't mean it won't be there


Just don't expect a healthbar or something.

[Erkki]

Good idea, but

Originally Posted by sd_stout

And remember each pilot had his own stamina and limitations on what he could endure. I say you should be able to level up your pilot! I used to have a pokemon game where you could wear a pedometer that would track how much you exercise and you could level up yu pokemon like that. Good idea sounds sweet to me!

...god no.

Last thing needed in a simulation of any kind are "experience points" and/or "levelling up".

Maybe for single player, as an option.

[Sven]

Indeed, leveling up or experience and special unlocks 'n sh*t points are games which are only made to make money, not even to enjoy the content. It causes the "Elitist take over" which I'd rather stay miles and miles away from. Leaderbords on forums is such example, I don't like it at all.



But back to the main thing, I really like your idea Helofly! Fatigue when slamming the stick all over the cockpit for half an hour is quite exhausting, that and keeping track of the enemy, and what not in a serious dogfight

BUT

Fatigue is not the same to every person, it's always different, always. Experience, health ect. All these factors make Fatigue in the game automatically unrealistic, no matter what, it's always different. I think it is too much work to really implement a good working fatigue system. However I have my own fatigue system in real life, flying for hours is quite exhausting for my own eyes, and I start decreasing performance, but that's just me.

[JG4_Helofly]

Originally Posted by Sven

BUT

Fatigue is not the same to every person, it's always different, always. Experience, health ect. All these factors make Fatigue in the game automatically unrealistic, no matter what, it's always different. I think it is too much work to really implement a good working fatigue system. However I have my own fatigue system in real life, flying for hours is quite exhausting for my own eyes, and I start decreasing performance, but that's just me.

True, fatigue is different for every person, but we also have a standard blackout model for everyone in the game. In RL people react differently to G-forces, but blackout is modeled in the game and no one complaines about it. Why should it be different with fatigue?

[Sven]

Originally Posted by JG4_Helofly

True, fatigue is different for every person, but we also have a standard blackout model for everyone in the game. In RL people react differently to G-forces, but blackout is modeled in the game and no one complaines about it. Why should it be different with fatigue?

Yes that's true as well, but I do believe differences in that are quite small. Still to determine a good fatigue system is too difficult and time consuming to saddle TD up with it. Like a previous post, also fear, adrenaline courage, everything has to do with your fatigue.

Say, You are in an airplane and suddenly you see a fancy enemy coming in on your tail, but you seem to be a tad tired, oh well that's a pity, now I can't move that quick. Of course not, adrenaline rushes in your brain, you slam the stick to the side and when you see the enemy passing in front of you, you engage him and follow him, you start shooting, is it going to hit?, c'mon! c'mon! You will not get tired, it's a natural saver that adrenaline stuff.

The same you find in sports, if you're in a duel, even when very tired and on the egde of turning the odds there's a big chance of you losing, you will forget that you're tired and engage the opponent.

[Furio]

In my opinion, we should realistically consider the difference between simulating air combat – as good as it is our beloved simulator – and any attempt at replicating reality, which is basically unattainable with known technology.

As fatigue is not the same for everyone, so it is courage or fear. Flying in a sim, you may be afraid to lose your points, but you never risk anything real, let alone your life. And this makes a huge difference. Playing with a sim, it comes natural to readily accept unreasonable risks for small rewards, this being anything but realistic.
Respectfully, my opinion is: any form of “artificial fatigue” should be avoided, or introduced as an option.

[Coen020]

Originally Posted by sd_stout

And remember each pilot had his own stamina and limitations on what he could endure. I say you should be able to level up your pilot! I used to have a pokemon game where you could wear a pedometer that would track how much you exercise and you could level up yu pokemon like that. Good idea sounds sweet to me!

-off topic-
really dude, a pedometer? sounds more like it's short for pedofilemeter.

-on topic-

i also think it would be kinda weird, i mean you control the aircraft but if your 'pilot' is tired and lets your plane crash i can imagine it feels more like he is your stupid copilot who just let YOU crash.

But then again maybe it should be an option that for some players who want to have it, can turn on.