end of the road

[CloCloZ]

Originally Posted by Rama

Now... ot go back on subject... I'm not sure (and even sure of the contrary) that digitall signatures will be enough to protect servers. Some real check (file check) has to be done to insure integrity.

Well, as I've told before I don't know the internals of IL-2 and don't know if and how the suggestion is (realistically) appliable, but digitally signed executables and the likes are usually the way to go to assure file (executable or not) integrity and authenticity.
It seems to me the main problem lies in the fact that servers are out of control by online gamers, so they have to "trust" server administrators, and gamers PCs are out of central server control (not knowing how the tasks are assigned to servers and clients I have no idea about which part is the most critical).
In fact, in theory the "other side" could be even a fully "cloned" IL-2 server or client, without a single line of Oleg's code, just behaving the same way (except for cheats ... )!

In any case a direct integrity checking of the other side isn't possible, so you would have to rely on some form of secure remote checking, encrypted exchange of authentication messages between signed game modules and the like.
I'm not an expert but I suppose Oleg and his guys are skilled and smart enough to face also these issues, at least for BoB (and also to evaluate if it's worth the effort!).

Originally Posted by -Ox-

o..k....another thread about some guy crying about hacks

well stop playing the game..you felt you needed a thread about it? Well, good bye....i don't think anyone really cared. This post is in no way affecting anyone else but yourself...we will continue to play our modded up game.

Thread lock please.

my dear modded friend with the skull.....I wasnt crying....i dont care about sound mod...but the problem would be if they touched FM and DM..then if you dont see a problem....are you kiddin me? how can we fly with joy, with fun if we see someone warping in P11 blasting jets..WTF you think we should be quiet? crying? wer not crying....how can you be a true simmer if your using such hacks? what is the point in simming with hacks? it is way more pointless than playing in FP shooter with hacks....u got it? If I wanted hacks I would play Postal or some stupid FPS for kidz...they turned simulator in f arcade....is that clear?

[-Ox-]

Originally Posted by Tvrdi

my dear modded friend with the skull.....I wasnt crying....i dont care about sound mod...but the problem would be if they touched FM and DM..then if you dont see a problem....are you kiddin me? how can we fly with joy, with fun if we see someone warping in P11 blasting jets..WTF you think we should be quiet? crying? wer not crying....how can you be a true simmer if your using such hacks? what is the point in simming with hacks? it is way more pointless than playing in FP shooter with hacks....u got it? If I wanted hacks I would play Postal or some stupid FPS for kidz...they turned simulator in f arcade....is that clear?

i know..Your right. But my point is there is nothing we can do about it, and theres too many threads where people are saying the same thing. No its not fun, to play with hackers/cheaters...but we have no choice now. Just ignore them..and get admin to ban them from the server if there caught. Thats about all we can do until some type of new security is out.

[LEXX]

Tvrdi::

If I wanted hacks I would play Postal or some stupid FPS for kidz...they turned simulator in f arcade....is that clear?

That's not clear, since you don't have to use any hack/mods here, and if paranoid about being cheated, you can find people who don't use mods and play with them only.

[Rama]

Originally Posted by LEXX

Tvrdi::
you can find people who don't use mods and play with them only.

Can be done only if you restrict your online experience to small coops and dogs with friend.

This not the most interesting way to play IL2 online. Much more interesting are online war (without several thousands participants), in which you don't chose your opponents... and to a lesser extent objective dogfight servers like "spit vs 109" and other... there also you don't chose who you play with.

Your "suggestion", isn't a solution for most of the onliners.

Like Tvrdi, I play this game online since the demo in November 2001. So I unterstand fully his concern.
Unlike him, I still continue to play online, in online wars like AW and others.... but only because I still hope in a solution with the final 4.09

[LEXX]

Agreed!

And...Newbies to the sim, going Online for the first time, don't usually start out in private servers or squads (offliner guessing here). So the first thing they see is concern over mod cheats in anonymous public servers.

But, we get what we have paid Oleg for.

Four at least five years running, the Offline and many Online players have asked Oleg for deeper customization options and modding to some degree or another -- the singleplayer/server option of using functional trim controls for example -- and were accused by hostile behaving anonymous public server gamers of the diabolical crime "wanting to cheat online."

Rather than joining these Offline and Online play customers and helping them convince Oleg to offer OFFICIAL "approved" 1C:Maddox options/modding ability that Oleg would have kept out of the anonymous public servers (say, a Patch with CRT=2.5), we trashed these people at the western publisher's game forum, all while the Offliners asking for these features were paying for our "free" cheat free anonymous public server gameplay.

Now, since these Offline and Online play customers are today going somewhere other than Oleg for their gameplay options and modding, we are getting exactly what we asked for -- and paid for. We had our chance to help Oleg's other customers, but instead we acted like tightwad snotty little computer gamers and we blew it.

If we all are really LUCKY, Oleg will fix the hack hole in 4.09 for the anonymous public server players, while leaving modding open for the other players.

[Rama]

What are you talking about?

Every player (whithout distinction Offliner/Onliner) paid for the sim, and it was clear from the start that one of the offered feature was a "cheat free" strong online capability whith limited (but real) modding capabilities.... that was clear during the last 6 years, and every player who bought the sim got what was promised.
During all these time, modding was possible. freely for skins, missions, campaign... and many other things. And under control of M:1C for new planes/cockpits/vehicle/ships/ objects/maps.
The choice of limitted "free" modding capability can be discussed. It was a dev choice that can be criticized, and we allready know that for SoW:BoB the choice will be different (the limit between possible "free modding" and modding under M:1C control will be placed differently and probably satisfy more "free" modders"). But as it was, it worked pretty well during the last 6 years, as can bee seen with a player community still very strong and active... something very uncommon in computer games.
... So probably the dev choice, even if not perfect... wasn't so bad afterall...

Now... nobody paid Qtim to develop the tools that now everybody can use, either to mod "freely" (without any control from M:1C), or.... to cheat.

So yes, the situation is different. With Qtim tools, free modding is available to everybody... and that's not going to change. It's a fact. This is not what we paid for, but this is what we have, and what we have to deal with if we want to continue to play.

I'm not whining against modders/hackers or worse insulting them (some do, and like to flame... which is totally useless and don't help anybody)... and many onliners don't do also... they know it's something they will have now to deal with.
BUT... they do have some legitimated concern about integrity of the online play. It's plain normal they speak about their concern on appropriate forums.
Having peoples bashing them, calling for thread to be locked and so on, don't help more than "hack whining" and insults.

[robtek]

1++

[Krt_Bong]

Dunno if this has any bearing here but I tried the Mod for a short time and all of it's many facets of fancy extras, Now in wartime pilots did modify their planes, they did put rearview mirrors on planes that didn't have them. They may have even modified or tweaked performance, but I digress. The truth is the Mods really are hacks and one can use them to gain an unfair advantage over other more responsible fair playing aviators even without changing FM/DM and the server side Check Runtime=2 is so easy to get around that most people probably aren't aware of how it's being done. Now that I know I won't use the Mods, as far as Offline play they may have a certain appeal but we aren't worried about that we want to be sure that our online experience is safe from hacking and cheating. The only way is to insure that joining programs don't circumvent the server protections that are intended to compare files and that ip's of people who join who can be determined to not have a Normal version of the game can be kicked from the server. This is going to take the work of smarter people than me who are aware of which I speak and get those joining programs to patch up the holes in them and a server side check which works no matter what OS one is using and only discriminates against Cheating and Hacked programs. The constant Bickering changes nothing, The arbitrary Goodbye Cruel Forum is getting real old and if your half as smart as you think you are when you think you have a solution and know how to Hack for good and not for Winning only for yourself then Dammit Do Something about it!

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Tvrdi

so spits vs 109s, warclouds etc. are hack free? tnx for notice

not correct. the soundmod hack has opened up all the FM/DM/WM aspect of the game as well, and those hacks can be used on any full real online server like zeke vs wildcat, warclouds, spits vs 109 etc

a recent thread here proved this conclusively (http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=2396) , reading the last 10 pages probably sums it up.

Originally Posted by LEXX

if paranoid about being cheated, you can find people who don't use mods and play with them only.

it is not for you or the hack crowd to decide how other legitimate il2 users should now use the il2 sim online, just because you personally choose to fly the sim offline.

a large part of the il2 community mainly used the open full real servers (HL or online war campaigns), this is now no longer a fair environment. since you personally dont seem to have a solution to resolve this problem, dont belittle this issue here and pretend this problem doesnt exist.

Originally Posted by LEXX

If we all are really LUCKY, Oleg will fix the hack hole in 4.09 for the anonymous public server players, while leaving modding open for the other players.

the chances are small that oleg will spend the time to close the hack hole because he is only working with a small group of programmers.

if oleg does choose to try and close it, this means less time will be spent by his programmer to do something else. are you prepared for example to loose the me-110 as a flyable plane in BoB, or how about we remove the dynamic campaign and just settle for scripted static missions, etc... with olegs limited resources it is an "either/or" situation, not "both/and". just make sure that you come back here when BoB is released so that we can direct any BoB bug complaints at you personally.