The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

Originally Posted by Kongo-Otto

History has proven that you don't have to kill all of your opponents.
It's about establishing a climate of fear and distrust against anybody even your own familymembers.
There are pretty much examples in history like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler.

Right. That's why no one ever found out about the crimes of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Uhmmm is that so? Would you mind to refresh my memory and give me some examples of biased posts of mine? And I hope that with " biased" you don't mean "in disagreement with you"

Erm, Ok.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

living in England has taught me that Britons are probably one of the most stubborn populations on this planet.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Dowding almost cost you the Battle of Britain, Harris wasted aircrews and hundreds of thousands of civilian lives with his ridiculous bombing campaign, which is regarded as a war crime

Regarded by whom, exactly?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

it's a delusional idea man, it's propaganda for little people.

Oh, thanks very much.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

declare war with what exactly? 5 Hurricanes and 10 Fairey Battles?

Ah, another demonstration of sound historical fact.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Do you really think that, had they really wanted to invade Britain, the Channel or the Royal Navy would have stopped them?

Yes, and so did Admiral Raeder.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

You only have to feel ashamed for the bomber offensive perpetrated by Harris.

See my earlier post. - No we don't; I for one wasn't even born, and Harris was acting with the authority of the War Cabinet, headed by Churchill.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

You had to wait for the Americans to show up in order to achieve that.

Not much cop us Brits, are we?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm sorry but that's wrong.

Surely you mean 'debatable'?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

air superiority over Great Britiain and Northern Europe was achieved only when the Americans got there.

Ah, those helpful mates of ours again.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

We should try and keep this conversation factual, with no national bias, but I understand it's not easy.

Absolutely agree.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

The whole definition of "Battle of Britain" is somehow wrong: It was turned into "The Battle of Britain" by propaganda. The British propaganda was in dear need of some kind of victory.

"Bomber" Harris was the mastermind of setting European civilian targets on fire with his "an eye for an eye" attitude.

Back to the evil British War criminal Harris again.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Serious historians aren't politically biased in their judgements

So do you consider yourself a serious historian? Or is your bias more nationalist than political? Or more simply, anti-british?

[Sven]

Interesting topic, I often question myself what Europe would look like if Hitler did succeed in his plans.
No European Union, instead; direct decisions, no democracy but just one party which decides how the economy is best used and less endless debates about the issues the nation runs into, and we would still retain a security force which would be albe to protect Europe against possible threads.
Would it work better then what we now have in Europe? I tend to think yes, but at the same time I would refuse to let my country get over-thrown by a foreign force.

[Kongo-Otto]

Originally Posted by IamNotDavid

Right. That's why no one ever found out about the crimes of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hitler.

Ok and when did they find out? Surely not as long as they have been in power, so sad as it is, their system of opression worked pretty well.
Stalin died in 1953 IIRC and years later he was abolished by Chrutschev at the 20th Party Congress 25th February 1956. The whole scale of Stalins mass murder is not even unveiled today.
Hitler died in 1945 and afterwards the whole gigantic scale of mass murder came to the light and also here the whole picture is still to unveil. To many had washed their shirts white in germany after the war, specially the Banks and the Industry.
Same with Pol Pot and Mao.
These guys didn't cared what happens after them, they are just thinking about to secure their own power at any cost.

[robtek]

Just leave the britons their "Victory of the BoB", they've not much else to be proud of.

What one sees as a victory doesn't mean that the rest of the world is looking at it in the same way.

About being proud, one can be proud for his/her own achievements, to be proud for someones elses deeds is to adorn oneself with borrowed plumes, imo.

Originally Posted by Kongo-Otto

Ok and when did they find out? Surely not as long as they have been in power, so sad as it is, their system of opression worked pretty well.
Stalin died in 1953 IIRC and years later he was abolished by Chrutschev at the 20th Party Congress 25th February 1956. The whole scale of Stalins mass murder is not even unveiled today.
Hitler died in 1945 and afterwards the whole gigantic scale of mass murder came to the light and also here the whole picture is still to unveil. To many had washed their shirts white in germany after the war, specially the Banks and the Industry.
Same with Pol Pot and Mao.
These guys didn't cared what happens after them, they are just thinking about to secure their own power at any cost.

I hate to break it to you, but we knew Stalin, Hitler, Hussein, Mao, Kim Il Sung, Bush and many others were bad long before they died. The fact that we didn't know all the details does not change that we knew they were bad.

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by robtek

Just leave the britons their "Victory of the BoB", they've not much else to be proud of.

What one sees as a victory doesn't mean that the rest of the world is looking at it in the same way.

About being proud, one can be proud for his/her own achievements, to be proud for someones elses deeds is to adorn oneself with borrowed plumes, imo.

No sorry, to claim the achievements of others as your ow doing is adorning with borrowed plumes, one can be proud of their own achievements if it's something that benefited someone else, but being proud of achieving for your own gains is just egotistical.

And the more anti-British crap I hear the more proud I am to be British because at some point a Brit must have spoiled your day.

[TUSA/TX-Gunslinger]

The German political leadership lost the "Campaign for England" simply because it was completely unable to set Strategic Objectives and then have the discipline/patience to see them though.

Much like the rest of the war, the little corporal interferred too much - at too many points to completely undermine anything strategic.

If Hitler had an English campaign in mind, in the months prior to the Battle of France - the BEF would never have escaped at Dunkirk. It was Hitler's own orders against the advice of his military experts that allowed the majority of the UK "cream", to escape right across the channel.

Imagine the difference in the air campaign's requirements without front line infantry and more important tactical leadership with experience?

The shifting of objectives after the Air Campaign was ongoing - without objective analysis and effective Battle Damage Assessment - is another in a blinding series of not only Strategic ineptitude, but also Operational level incompetence.

Not that any of the allies save Russia ever managed to master the Operational Level (review Bradley and Montgomery's failures during St Lo/Normandy Breakout - fairly late in the war). No nation emerged with mastery of all levels of the art of war - British, Americans, Germans and Japanese were quite good at the tactical level - while the Russians clearly mastered the Operational level with probably the best handle on the Strategic level.

Thankfully, we didn't have a ground war in Europe after WW2.

S!

Gunny

[bongodriver]

What one sees as a victory doesn't mean that the rest of the world is looking at it in the same way.

Apparently not, the Germans certainly seem to be like that, not biased of course.

[Kongo-Otto]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Apparently not, the Germans certainly seem to be like that, not biased of course.

And the more anti-German crap I hear the more proud I am to beGerman because at some point a German must have spoiled your day.