Campaigns as Axis? - Page 6

David603 · #51 08-04-2009, 04:17 PM

Besides, both the Russians and the Japanese committed far worse war crimes than the Germans. By extension of the argument that you shouldn't play as the Germans because of what the Nazi's did, you shouldn't be playing as either of these nations. Never stopped me yet, because there were brave and honourable men in the air services of all three nations.

Anton Yudintsev · #52 08-04-2009, 04:39 PM

Please, stop discussing war crimes.
Neither of you (nor me) are historical experts, to make judgement on who is more guilty.
And it is ridiculous.
Axis campaign won't be in this game.
Nazis commited a lot of war crime, but far better excuse is that they actually lost the war.
How is it supposed to end this 'Axis Campaign'?
I have nothing against fighting for Axis in MP (that's why MP has Axis), but Campaign seems weird.
Nazi pilots were fighting for evil side. For guys who were murdering millions of people, because they were of another race or nationality. Yeah, it doesn't matter cause they were soldiers and had to obey orders. But it matters - because they vote for their leader earlier. And their leader makes all these people fight - and die - in a world war, which they lost in the end. And it is their fault as well - that's the dark side of democracy. Everyone is guilty for the crimes of the government which was publicly elected.
Personally, I like the fact that Nazis lost this war. The idea that people have to die, with a horrible death, just because they are of the another race - seems horrible to me.
But to fight in Campaign for the loosing side?... What for? Will it prove that they were fighting for anything that worth fighting? Why anybody want to take a part in a Campaign for Nazis - and lost it, as Nazis did?

BTW, Allies and Axis both killed a lot of common people during military operations - it is war. But in USSR German prisoners of war have better food ration that Soviet soldiers on the frontlines. And USSR prisoners were starving and dying in German concentration camps.
The attitude towards prisoners shows a lot. And Germany attacked first, unexpectedly, without declaration of war - France, Britain, USSR. They (the govenrment) were mercyless agressor - and still they were treated as a war prisoners, not like they were of a lesser kind. I am proud that my grandparents fought and won that war.
And so stop comparing Russian (USSR) with Nazis or Japanese. That's silly and unfair.

worthless · #53 08-04-2009, 04:57 PM

But to fight in Campaign for the loosing side?... What for? Will it prove that they were fighting for anything that worth fighting? Why anybody want to take a part in a Campaign for Nazis - and lost it, as Nazis did?

Its gaming nature to want to try and see what "you" could do different, The Confederates at Gettyburg, Japanese Navy at Guadalcanal, Bismarck ripping apart convoys, to put a game up as some kind of moral Barometer of what you should or shouldnt enjoy in a game is unfair at the least , at most just plain wrong ........... ITS A GAME NOT A POLITICAL/MORAL STATEMENT

irrelevant · #54 08-04-2009, 04:58 PM

Anton, there is another thread on the forum talking about family members who fought in the war. Have you posted there? I'd love to hear what your grandparents did.

David603 · #55 08-04-2009, 05:13 PM

Stalin ruthlessly killed those who were not ethnic Russians. More than 100,000 ethnically Polish civilians were murdered prior to WWII, as too were many Germans who had emigrated to Russia after WWI. People of other nationalities such as Americans who had fled the Great Depression were also persecuted. In my mind there is not much difference between persecuting people because they belong to one specific ethnic group and persecuting people because they have a different ethnic origin to your own.

Russian troops regularly executed captured enemies, including many German pilots, and killed 25,000 Polish officers on Stalin's orders. Around 12-15%(580,000 out of around 4 million) of all prisoners of war taken by the Soviets died in the Gulags (penal labour camps).

Advancing Russian troops looted and pillaged the land of the Axis nations they took, and raped tens if not hundreds of thousands of women.

I am not saying what the Russian did during WWII was unprovoked, or necessarily much worse than what the Germans did, but no one had clean hands during WWII and the Germans tend to get isolated as if what they did was greatly worse than everyone else's behaviour.

Flanker15 · #56 08-04-2009, 05:19 PM

Moral/Political features rarely factor into a flight simulator (unless they're explicitly written in), it's is all about the planes!
I never found a WW2 sim that had a problem with a German campaign, all of mine have one or several, some exclusivly have a German campaign.
The brief is that people want to use the German aircraft simply because they like them and they want to use them in missions more complex than quick battles or online.

Anton Yudintsev · #57 08-04-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David603

....

Simply, that's a lie. Prove it or stop talk about it.
No more, than 21 000 of Poland soldiers were executed. Even less according to official information.
They were soldiers, not citizens. And, although it is still awful and ugly, they were not murdered in gasenwagens, or starved to death.
But - 1. they were soldiers 2. your numbers are something imaginery.
Just to remind, at least 50 000 russian war prisoners were killed by Poland soldiers earlier.
I don't like to dig into these things - war as ugly. But comparing Nazis death camps and actions of agressor with USSR defending their right to live - is also ugly.

Anton Yudintsev · #58 08-04-2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flanker15

Moral/Political features rarely factor into a flight simulator (unless they're explicitly written in), it's is all about the planes!
I never found a WW2 sim that had a problem with a German campaign, all of mine have one or several, some exclusivly have a German campaign.
The brief is that people want to use the German aircraft simply because they like them and they want to use them in missions more complex than quick battles or online.

Yeah. I appreciate your opinion, but I don't share it. Luckily, it is us who make the game.
That's why Axis planes are available in online only. Which is good enough, as for me.

Anton Yudintsev · #59 08-04-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David603

Advancing Russian troops looted and pillaged the land of the Axis nations they took, and raped tens if not hundreds of thousands of women.

Just noticed.
Several Soviet soldiers were EXECUTED for raping women. It was strictly prohibited. There was an official order about it.
There is no any official statistics on raping even hundreds women, not tens of thousand.
It can't be Stalin's crime at all, becuase he order not to do anything like that, and several soldiers were executed becuase of this crime.
What you do, is simply repeating thiose bullshit that can be found in the Internet, without any proofs or reliable links. It is lie, bullshit and it is annoying.

If I'll notice it again - I'll ask moderator to ban you.

guiltyspark · #60 08-04-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anton Yudintsev

Just noticed.
Several Soviet soldiers were EXECUTED for raping women. It was strictly prohibited. There was an official order about it.
There is no any official statistics on raping even hundreds women, not tens of thousand.
It can't be Stalin's crime at all, becuase he order not to do anything like that, and several soldiers were executed becuase of this crime.
What you do, is simply repeating thiose bullshit that can be found in the Internet, without any proofs or reliable links. It is lie, bullshit and it is annoying.

If I'll notice it again - I'll ask moderator to ban you.

not to butt in anton , but it is factual history.
http://books.google.com/books?id=00f...age&q=&f=false