soviet planes and 4.1x...

[1984]

some findings etc...

ONE of confirmations - 29:53 - yak-9t and only one type of shells, apparently, APs...


and, by the way, just about shells for guns... hispano - 20x110, HE-shell - 130 g in total, around 10 g of explosives... right? well, of course, better than shvak what personally i and see in game...

VYA-23 - 23x152, HE-shell - 201/15.6 - ie more explosives, almost like in minengeschoss if 18 g it's correctly, more weight ie more fragments which can damage pilot/fuel etc (it's fragment with weight around 5 g) and could be more fragments which can damage design of plane (it's fragment with weight around 20 g)...

well, and personally i can't say what vya really better than hispano... or difference very little (like and with shvak vs hispano)... or i'm mistaken...


pilot talks about repaired la-5 without sliding part of canopy, because pilot accidentally dropped this...

i think plane really could flew without canopy (f. e. no new canopy for repair at moment of sortie) and, maybe, for fun need to do this like for german planes...

oh, and he talks about polished la-5fn... well, some soviet pilots/regiments really no had too much combat sorties, so, i think it's could be not too rare cases, but and not really mass practice... my opinion, it's could be something like around 575-585 kph at sl of normal plane + 5-10...

well, all this another explanation why in RL especially russian planes had very different performances (here interesting photo, look at wing and again, how looks front bullet proof of la-5fn)...


about ammunition and ammo belts for cannons of all il-2s...

for example, vya-23 and shvak were not AT guns, and can destroy only light and some middle tanks (or some tanks in some places), but HE/HEI shells of these guns for example can't destroy locomotive in train, so - apparently, because i don't have documents and use only logic, some photos and rumors - belts could be very different and depends on type of targets...

if main target was front line/infantry/AA guns/trucks etc ie soft targets, in ammobelts main type was HE-shells or only he-shells, if targets were not soft targets like trains/tanks/251s etc, especially in 41-43, could be like "mainly AP" or something like this... shvak was not so powerful, so, apparently il-2s with shvaks could have mainly or only he shells in ammo belt... il-2s with ns-37, apparently, had belts like il-2s with vya-23...

so, my opinion, need to do this and i think what old system of loads does not comply with requirements of historicity and gameplay...


attached some examples (1, vya-23 and only HE shells, 2, can't understand, 3, wooden box with inscription "23 мм ОЗ" and really HEI shells)...

here just how looks belt with AP shells for ns-37...

here oruzheyniki s lentoy (apparently, 1 ap - 1 he), here apparently la-5 (1 he - 3 ap), here mainly HEs, here very interesting ammo belt of captured il-2 with vya-23 (personally i see APs and only one HE), here captured il-2 with shvaks (personally i see only HEs), here captured il-2 with different rockets (not sure, maybe, different fuses), here il-2 in 41-42 with something like m-13/rofs-132, here just how looks vya-23 in wing, here another captured il-2, here just il-2 with rockets, here mainly/only HEs, here only? HEs/HEIs, here different shells for shvak, here different shells for ns-37 (sometimes, 3 APs or HEs), here only or mainly one type (HEs?), here something like 3 AP - 1 HE?, here or here mainly AP shells, here can't understand, here only? APs (looks like il-2 two-seater with am-38f and new roketnye orudiya), here apparently mainly APs, well, and it's all what i found at this moment only in some sources...

and, just interesting pics with il-2, here il-2 in flight (look at fairing of landing gear, here, better quality), here rs-132 "short", here attack of il-2...

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by 1984

and, by the way, just about shells for guns... hispano - 20x110, HE-shell - 130 g in total, around 10 g of explosives... right? well, of course, better than shvak what personally i and see in game...

VYA-23 - 23x152, HE-shell - 201/15.6 - ie more explosives, almost like in minengeschoss if 18 g it's correctly, more weight ie more fragments which can damage pilot/fuel etc (it's fragment with weight around 5 g) and could be more fragments which can damage design of plane (it's fragment with weight around 20 g)...

well, and personally i can't say what vya really better than hispano... or difference very little (like and with shvak vs hispano)... or i'm mistaken....

The Hispano is very effective in-game and is probably tied for first with the MG151/20 for most destructive 20mm cannon... but the VYa 23mm is in a league of it's own. We have to restrict it from the loadouts on LaGG-3s for some online matches because a couple of 23mm VYa rounds will devastate a bomber utterly. The fire rate and muzzle velocity are lower than the Hispano but the sheer destructive power is incredible. Anecdotally with the VYa we see effects like engines being shot off, planes loosing both wings, or aircraft being thrown around (and sometimes into a stall situation). I'd say it is definitely more powerful than any of the 20mm.

Plus for tank busting the 23mm is noticeably more capable on rear armor decks on light and some medium tanks than the smaller 20mm cannons.

[Woke Up Dead]

Originally Posted by IceFire

The Hispano is very effective in-game and is probably tied for first with the MG151/20 for most destructive 20mm cannon... but the VYa 23mm is in a league of it's own. We have to restrict it from the loadouts on LaGG-3s for some online matches because a couple of 23mm VYa rounds will devastate a bomber utterly. The fire rate and muzzle velocity are lower than the Hispano but the sheer destructive power is incredible. Anecdotally with the VYa we see effects like engines being shot off, planes loosing both wings, or aircraft being thrown around (and sometimes into a stall situation). I'd say it is definitely more powerful than any of the 20mm.

In 4.10 when you hit an enemy's wing with the VYa, even from a distance, it would look like a giant hand slapped down on that wing: the enemy airplane would violently roll 90 or even 180 degrees. I think they changed that in 4.11, don't see that effect anymore. Agree that the VYa is more powerful than any 20mm, I wish more Soviet fighter planes had it.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Woke Up Dead

In 4.10 when you hit an enemy's wing with the VYa, even from a distance, it would look like a giant hand slapped down on that wing: the enemy airplane would violently roll 90 or even 180 degrees. I think they changed that in 4.11, don't see that effect anymore. Agree that the VYa is more powerful than any 20mm, I wish more Soviet fighter planes had it.

Yep the effect is lessened (it was actually the worst on the MG-FF for whatever reason) big time for 4.11 but with the VYa it's still there in a reduced form.

[Pursuivant]

Wasn't the Lagg-3 armed with VYA-23 the plane where the pilot was able to substitute guns for brakes?

The story I heard was that the plane's brakes failed on landing, so the pilot improvised by shooting his guns. The recoil was sufficient to slow the plane before he ran out of runway.

The story sounds too good to be true, but it could be real. Certainly, in IL-2 the VYA-23 is absolutely deadly as a bomber killer. For dogfighting, not so much, since the rate of fire is slow and the bullet trajectory and/or speed is very different from other weapons.

[1984]

well, apparently, i'm was really mistaken... and forgot what maybe need more power of explosives for destroy of heavy shell...

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Wasn't the Lagg-3 armed with VYA-23 the plane where the pilot was able to substitute guns for brakes?

The story I heard was that the plane's brakes failed on landing, so the pilot improvised by shooting his guns. The recoil was sufficient to slow the plane before he ran out of runway.

The story sounds too good to be true, but it could be real.

in RL serial fighters never had vya-23, only several laggs of 21 or, most likely, 153 plant in late'41-early'42 (one of these laggs was captured by japan), but i know about these cases for yaks with ns-37/45, which really could be true, why not...

[IceFire]

Indeed... perhaps the 45mm armed Yak-9 but I doubt anything else would do it.

IL-2 does model the recoil effect on the ground, I'm not sure how realistically, but you can slow the plane down by firing your guns. The effect is negligible compared to the friction of the grass.... but I suppose with the extra large cannon it might make a big enough difference to matter.

[1984]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Indeed... perhaps the 45mm armed Yak-9 but I doubt anything else would do it.

yak-9k have muzzle brake, like and small series of laggs/yaks-7/il-2s with SH-37 - ie here attached pic with, apparently, exactly lagg with sh-37 from tests'42 (by the way, in reports noted what in compare with planes with ns-37, planes with sh-37 were much more stable when firing in flight, and if firing bursts too) - but force of recoil of ns-45, like and of ns-37, was very serious, in many books written what optimally firing by short bursts (2-3, sometimes, max. 5 shells) and accuracy/recoil very depends on speed of plane...

and in fact, i read lot of mentions about recoil on land/in air, but now can remember only what written about yak-9t one of best soviet aces, Vorozheykin -

Можно попробовать? - спросил я Герасимова, показывая на кнопку управления стрельбой пушки.

- Давай! - и Николай Семенович подал команду: - От самолета! - и пояснил: - Он при стрельбе на земле, как необъезженный конь, брыкается и может лягнуть.

Я нажал на кнопку. Всполохи пламени сверкнули перед "яком". Грохот ударил в уши. Самолет от сильной отдачи на метр отпрянул назад. Ого! Действительно брыкается.

by the way, further, he mentioned about HE shells with self destruction -

А где же шары? Наверное, проглядел. И я, еще дав два залпа, всматриваюсь вперед. Цепочка хвостатых разноцветных шаров вспорола синеву и где-то далеко-далеко разорвалась. "Значит, снаряды, чтобы не падать на землю, в воздухе самоликвидируются", - подумал я, разглядывая рябинки в небе от разрывов.

well, after first combat tests'43 pilots wanted other type of self destruction, but i not found clear information, this was realised or not, like and about new AP shells, so, at this moment i only can say what self destruction, apparently, was after 9-12 sec after shot (or after 3000 meters, information very different, maybe, again need to check book of nudelman)...

[1984]

that interesting and funny, only now i saw this page and found what sometimes i just repeated (with help of peoples from many forums/sites, of course) findings and what written in total by Alex Ruchkowsky...

in fact it's good because 2 similar opinions it's very indicative, we on right way...

highly recommend to read this page, especially, because it's already on english and no reasons to some my bad translations further, i will only add some information and want to focused on armament/performance...

(by the way, in addition to old drawings from 2010 on this site, if DT will do/fix 3d model of laggs, here apparently last and best or one of best - at this moment - drawings for this good deal)...

and just for fun, official report about NS-37, plus, attached some pics, on 1 belt with 20 mm shells for yak (i see 1 AP - 1 HE) and apparently, another good confirmation of belting-theory, belt with 23 mm shells for il-2 (i clearly see 3 AP - 1 HE or HEI)...

oh, and i remembered about one of, apparently, confirmations of weight of yak-9d as front fighter ie around 2900 kg (310 kg of fuel, around 20 kg of oil), well, here interesting document and description of plane for tests with 2880 kg...

[1984]

Originally Posted by 1984

...(by the way, in addition to old drawings from 2010 on this site, if DT will do/fix 3d model of laggs, here apparently last and best or one of best - at this moment - drawings for this good deal)...

here Paul_S, author of drawings for laggs, posted last and most full version plus small important description in archive...

and i heard before that DT interested in la-5, well, he have similar drawings and for la-5 of early series ie la-5 with fuselage of lagg-3 (in game now 3d model of, if i'm not mistaken, la-5 of around 1-4 series, with mixed performance of 1-8,9 and 9,10-xx series), but, apparently, at this moment no full version in one archive...

and, in fact, i again highly recommend for all who want know more, see all these pics...