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  #1  
Old 02-06-2013, 04:32 PM
1984 1984 is offline
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Default soviet planes and 4.1x...

about lagg-3, so-called, "66 serie"...


here in table lagg-3 № 6011 and № 7166 ie it's 60 and 71 series...

confirmation -
Quote:
Классификация номеров самолета ЛаГГ-3 производства 31 авиазавода:

Пример: 6603

66 - № серии. В каждой серии выпускается по 99 самолетов
03 - № самолета
60 serie have performance of "66" and can be first serie with changes, mainly, this and other sources confirms -
Quote:
Первые ЛаГГ-3 66-й серии покинули сборочный цех весной 1943 года.

next, control tests from Rodionov's Chronology...

state testing of lagg-3 60 serie with identification of many defects (it's for what need these test, mainly, i repeat) -
Quote:
С 12 апреля по 4 мая 1943 самолет ЛаГГ-3 N 6066 производства 31 завода неудовлетворительно прошли гос. испытания по причине:
а) недобора скоростей на 10-15 км/час
б) выброса масла из суфлера
в) высоких температурных режимов
г) перетяжеленности на 73 кг
д) недостаточной дальности радиосвязи
е) заниженной дальности по запасу горючего (1778,271).
and this all confirms, apparently, what 60 serie it's first serie with changes...

further, if briefly, lagg-3 № 6311 (released in may 1943 with 2960 kg), 6542 (august/2992 kg, 5.4 min/5000 km, and this not so bad performance with many defects in description), 6631 (september/2986 kg), 7166 (februar/2983 kg), all with similar performances...

well, i think, 2963 kg - start of production and performance similar with etalon, 2993-30xx kg - further, first problems and defects, 2970-2980 kg - main problems solved, so, average normal performance between etalon and plane with defects ie normal situation for all soviet aircrafts during production...

another 6x serie (no defects, june'43, from HR again) -
Quote:
Испытан самолет ЛАГГ-3 N 6381 июньского выпуска. Получены данные: Максимальная скорость у земли 540 км/час Максимальная скорость на II гр. Высотности 593 км/час
JUST flight'44 -
Quote:
12 апреля 1944 у А.Г.Кубышкина на ЛаГГ-3 М-105ПФ N 6152 сдал мотор и с трудом посадил (815,16).

info from russian historian Stankov -
Quote:
например, 9ИАП КБФ закончил войну на ЛаГГ-3 серий 66. 69, 70, 71, 72.

another good book about la/lagg with lot of tables with performances, we can see planes of 31 plant with weight around 2962.3-2993 kg and, mainly, normal weight around 2970-2975 kg...


thx for SergeyZhuravlev, on english, laggs 7033, 7043 and 7041...


attached table from "TsAGI - samoletostroenye v SSSR 1917- 1945, part 2", with performances of some soviet planes including lagg-3 of 31 plant, which, i think, mainly based on tests what we can read in some sources...


attached 2 pages of some books on english, with laggs 6019 and apparently 6066...


well...

relatively simple research in some open sources (ON ORIGINAL language, with docs, tables etc and for several findings thx to scalemodels.ru again) and we can see what now lagg-3 "66 serie" in fact have not correctly name, weight and performance...

in compare for 4.11 - 542 kph at sl (545 max. for REAL lagg from early quality test, no any things like "gespachtelt und poliert", "special treated" etc etc etc), weight 3087.96 kg (extra 100-1xx kg), best turn time 20.19 (extra 1.5 sec), climb... don't know, but i think too low...

and, apparently, in game wrong fuel load...

about armament, i think, all correctly and i not found any serious confirmations about second UBS...


and, in total, just my opinion what we need - apparently, 2 laggs of late series - first, for example "lagg-3 6x serie" with around 545 kph at sl/5.4 min at 5000 m/18 sec at 1000/296x kg, and second "7x serie" with 53x/5.6/19/299x or even 30xx, ie 2 different planes with max. level of differences of performances which based on real quality tests of real planes...

it's in ideal and just sample...

other way - only one average lagg-3 maybe of 66 serie with performance from attached table, just, i think need to correct weight (2970-2975 kg)...

but personally i prefer first variant because it's historically and better for varied gameplay, but without any serious changes ie easy to do...


and, just attached 2 not bad pics...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg tsagi1.jpg (148.5 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg 6019.jpg (104.7 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg 6066.jpg (156.5 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg 2931.jpg (105.0 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg 62IAP_CHF_1944_lagg-3.jpg (55.5 KB, 32 views)
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  #2  
Old 02-06-2013, 04:34 PM
1984 1984 is offline
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some interesting and actual findings about la-5/7...

about canopy of la-5fn and la-7 - "canopy can be fixed in front, rear and average position"...

we know what when canopy open it's -15-18 kph, but, apparently, pilot could fix canopy in average position ie WITHOUT serious loss of speed and tropical heat in cabine...

real view of rear bulletproof glass of, at least, la-5fn and la-7 from "technical description of la-7" (confirmed in "t.d. of la-5fn")...

about new front bulletproof glass and new tail wheel of la-7 from "technical description of la-7" - "solid front bulletproof glass... folding on earth and loss in flight of tail wheel now impossible" - ie not how here and maybe sometimes like in attached photo of czech? la-7...


about new stvorki (on english, it's, apparently... "leafs"... or "casements"...) of la-7, on sides of engine, and loss of speed i wrote before...


about conditions of "tropical heat" in cabine...

Quote:
При полном закрытии створок капотов мотора температура воздуха в кабине летчика значительно повышается вследствие негерметичности противопожарной перегородки и недостаточной высоты ее, что утомляет летчика и затрудняет полет.
ie, because of defects of some first la-5/la-5fn and "with full closed "stvorki" temperature in cabine increases significantly" (well, it's what I supposed earlier)...

from special tests of defected la-7 -
Quote:
7. Температура воздуха в кабине летчика при закрытом фонаре достигает 47°Ц на номинальном режиме работы мотора и свыше 60°Ц на максимальном режиме работы мотора...

Улучшение герметизации кабины снижает температуры воздуха на 8-10°Ц.
ie, "with closed canopy and nominal power temperature in cabine of la-7 with normal quality - around 38 degrees in area of feet" (ie, only my opinion, just means from cold to terrible russian winter and against beginning of diseases)...


and i just remind real speeds of best serial la-7 which found - speed on nominal power, 582 kph at sl (or even 587 ie la-7 s.n. 38101364), on forsazh - best + from forsazh, 39 kph - ie can be 621 kph at sl (speed of prototype, on nominal, 597 kph at sl, of etalon for production - apparently, 590)...

ie my theory only confirmed...


and attached table with one of confirmations, in some sense, of 10 min of forsazh for, at least, la-7 (more, with great docs and about m-82s, later) and table with just normal performances of soviet fighters 43-45...

for la-7 was taken performance of plane with serial number 38102663 ie 663 or 63 plane of 2 or 26 serie of 381 plant, which was produced in may'45 and was armed with 3 b-20...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg glass.jpg (73.0 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg 1943-1945.jpg (145.3 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg tsagi2.jpg (160.8 KB, 24 views)
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  #3  
Old 02-13-2013, 02:27 PM
1984 1984 is offline
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about "gargrot", if someone not understood yet, few pics - here carcass of yak and little part of upper gargrot, here, here and here just yaks in different condition, and last example - bf 109 on background of yak-3 ie here you can see another design of fuselage...
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg yak1.jpeg (137.8 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpeg yak2.jpeg (37.9 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpeg yak3.jpeg (80.9 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpeg yak4.jpeg (40.9 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpeg yak+109.jpeg (72.8 KB, 45 views)
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  #4  
Old 02-14-2013, 09:58 PM
1984 1984 is offline
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for a start about la-5/la-7 and just important because planes of BoS...

personally i for a long time think over next interesting puzzle, or mystery, or just thing about number of ammunition for la-5/la-7...

it is considered what some first lag-5 (or lagg-5, don't know, but in docs personally i saw all names) and maybe la-5 (from previous link from very interesting book - lagg-5 became called la-5 or "lavochkin-5" after приказ НКАП 683 in 8 sept'42) had 400-440 shells in total, further 340 and starting from la-5f with low fuselage all planes had 340 shells, but in book of Yakubovich i saw interesting drawing with ammo boxes of lag-5 with 500 shells in total (attached)...

in very interesting "техническое описание самолета ла-5 с мотором м-82, часть первая, общие данные и вооружение самолета", 1942 have number of shells for la-5, 340 in total, and very similar picture of ammo boxes, but without "250" (attached)...

attached some pics with ammo boxes of serial aircrafts, well, i think boxes were not changed...

ie, apparently - if boxes really were not changed - 170 shells for each shvak can be something like theoretical capacity of boxes, or weight limit (well, constant struggle for weight reduction, in end'42-early'43 especially), or just standard limit of ammunition for all planes (unnecessary shells ie pilot can be shot down faster than ammo end), or some technical details, for example, in this "td of la-5, 1942" (pages 12-13 and 18-19) written what "links of belts discharged in ammo boxes" ("звенья отводятся в эти же патронные коробки") ie it's teoretically can be reason of 340 shells, too, and similar thing have in "technical description of i-185-71" (page 47), where "звенья верхней пушки (250 снарядов в патронной коробке) отводятся звеньеотводом в левую заднюю коробку (где ТОЛЬКО 140 снарядов, в то время как в правой - 170 снарядов)" ie links of upper gun discharged in ammo box of LEFT gun with only 140 shells in ammo box (for example, for right gun - 170), but i-185 it's not la-5, and another type of technical details it's for many types of planes of all countys all time we can see not full ammunition for guns (personally i can't say here any serious reason, why, only weight limit and real need in ammunition)...

well, it's all what personally i found, about ammo boxes, in all manuals/descriptions/books and personally i think - only at this moment - 340 shells it's weight limits and standard limit of ammunition for all planes ie real need in ammunition, so, apparently and teoretically, pilots could take more shells if need (for example, free hunt or attack of ground targets) or if wanted (for example, this pilot says what flew with only 80 shells in total), or something like this and in this case, maybe, need to give in game new ammo loads (like "100", "340" and something like "470-480") or new mechanism of choice of loads...

or, if i'm wrong, all this just another curious post...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg ammoboxes of la-5.jpg (167.5 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg td of la-5, 1942, page 19.jpg (1.64 MB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg ammoboxe of la-5-1.jpg (558.6 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg ammoboxe of la-5-2.jpg (89.7 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg ammoboxe of la-5-3.jpg (37.6 KB, 12 views)
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  #5  
Old 02-14-2013, 10:54 PM
panzer1b panzer1b is offline
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personally i think allowing for different ammo loadouts would be great...

if it is actually true that many russian planes allowed for more ammo, id very much love this option to equip 340 rounds in a yak or la5, given that those planes are basically very tough to get multiple kills in, while a fw190 i can easily get 6+ kills in a single sortie if done right

still if it was a historical option and can be added to the game without too much effort id love to have belt configuration of the number of rounds in each belt, preferably for each gun

itd be nice to allow for overloading ammo capacity for long missions or ground attack, and then using less(standard loadout) for short range or base defense combat.

i say the easiest way to do this is to add a single option of maxed ammo under the loadout such as the "extra ammunition" for the p39 or the p47. it would not be unbalanced and would give the russian planes some more lasting power and not requiring returning to base every 3 kills assuming you can even achieve that many in a online fight which often requires firing at slightly longer ranges and the lag makes life much harder gunnery wise

yaks are the biggest issue for me as those have only only one 20mm with barely any ammo, and a useless 12.7mm with just as few rounds. Personally i dont even touch em on limited ammo servers as its just not much fun to return home all the time with no ammo left. LAs are better but still a few more rounds would not hurt. most other planes are imo fine as i16s and laggs have either more ammo or just enough guns to make up for the ammo shortage per gun


also just a sidenote, now i do not have any actual source but was the SHVAK so accurate as it is in game? i mean i can actually snipe a plane easily that is within 800m and flying straight, while no other weapon can actually achieve this (hispano, japanese weapons, mgff, mg151, nothing). Also i believe the mg81 is a tad to accurate as its literally a minigun with no spread (which i believe is a tad weak and for some reason has very short range)

now i do not have actual data for this so it very well may have been this way irl, but it just feels that these two weps specifically are just unrealistically accurate
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  #6  
Old 02-16-2013, 04:47 PM
1984 1984 is offline
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ok, i survived after this meteorite or rocket or what it was, so, party continues...

Quote:
Originally Posted by panzer1b View Post
personally i think allowing for different ammo loadouts would be great...
it's and great, and logical, and historically correct... ie just really needful in game... and later i want to write here about some my findings about real ammunition/belting of il-2, and just about these planes...

Quote:
if it is actually true that many russian planes allowed for more ammo, id very much love this option to equip 340 rounds in a yak or la5, given that those planes are basically very tough to get multiple kills in, while a fw190 i can easily get 6+ kills in a single sortie if done right
well... i really understand you... for example, when i flew much time on yaks, in 2007-2009, i'm dreamed and think about "just need some bullets, around 50 and it's will be just great for these great planes", but i don't knowed what my dreams it's REALITY and in this "great" game lot of errors...

well, it's main reasons of my reaserches, i want not empty PR of OM/MG or raving fans, i want reality and normal soviet and other planes...

but you not fully understood, 340 shells in total ie 170 for each shvak it's normal, typical ammo load for la-5 and 7, in game 340-400, although i talking about 440-480 in total for las and earlier i written about real confirmed ammoloads for yaks like 32/220 for yak-9t, 135-140/220-240 for yak-1/9, 36/170 for lagg-3 IT etc...


and, in fact, i can't understand why DT not did for fw 190a-4 and 5 trommel with 100 shells, and just not corrected number of ammunition, although, if i'm not mistaken, it's not only experimental trommels or unrealistic ammoloads...

what can be easier? especially now... but we again wait these important and absolutely simple things...

or i don't know something very secret and important...

Quote:
still if it was a historical option and can be added to the game without too much effort id love to have belt configuration of the number of rounds in each belt, preferably for each gun
yes, need to find only real and historical things...

and in game really need new mechanism of choice of loads and small changes of construction for planes (for example, rear bulletproof glass for p-39, new canopy for p-47d/51b, mirrors, armor of bf 109f-4 for g-2 etc etc etc), but don't forget about orders, typical ammoloads, supply and other real things ie total free it's absolutely not historically...

Quote:
itd be nice to allow for overloading ammo capacity for long missions or ground attack, and then using less(standard loadout) for short range or base defense combat.
you understood rightly, were standarts, limits and details, but were and real needs or preferences of individual pilots, plus, i think "il-2" in fact semi-historical game, but we not want nonsence or something like impossible and difficult task...

just need to search real examples and thinking...

Quote:
yaks are the biggest issue for me as those have only only one 20mm with barely any ammo, and a useless 12.7mm with just as few rounds. Personally i dont even touch em on limited ammo servers as its just not much fun to return home all the time with no ammo left.
yes, need practice, understanding... and feeling of power, luke...

although, in fact, yaks have strange "realistic" FM + mainly not historical ammoloads and it's main reason why on these very simple in RL planes we need to fly very correctly... i heard what in 3.04 patch or something like this yaks were very correctly in total, but i not remember these times... and, unfortunately, here we can hopes only on BOS...

Quote:
LAs are better but still a few more rounds would not hurt. most other planes are imo fine as i16s and laggs have either more ammo or just enough guns to make up for the ammo shortage per gun
about lagg-3 s4, in game have 2 very serious errors like with ammunition for il-2s - all laggs with 2 shkas in RL had 650 rounds for EACH shkas (in 4.09 325 for each shkas) and s4 never not had second UBS - ie lagg-3 s4, i repeat, just "franken plane"...

well, i wrote, a long time ago, post about real performance, FM and armament of lagg-3 s4 and other laggs-3 of early series, but found very interesting info about vya-23 for these early laggs, so, post delayed...

although, maybe, just useless to write about it here, especially, with my english...


and by the way, la-7 with 2 b-20 had 130 shells for each b-20, although full capacity of boxes apparently was 150 for each box...

Quote:
also just a sidenote, now i do not have any actual source but was the SHVAK so accurate as it is in game? i mean i can actually snipe a plane easily that is within 800m and flying straight, while no other weapon can actually achieve this (hispano, japanese weapons, mgff, mg151, nothing).
all or almost all guns in game very accurate, so, it's global problem of ballistics and weapons in game, and about concrete gunnery in game - mg-151-20 are laser too, just need more effort and concentration in compare with shvak, it's personally my experience from online wars...

and i can also say about reasons what, for example, mg-151-20 it's 20×82 shell and 705 mps (805 only for minengeschoss), shvak it's 20×99R and 750-790, but it's VERY simple comparison without amount of powder in cartridge, type and quality of powder, length of barrel etc...

well, it's very complex thing, but even now you can see some of reasons...

other guns like hispano, vya-23, mg-ff, personally i think what hispano and vya-23 should be a bit better then now and personaly for me not problem to shooting at 600-800 meters from tempest...

Quote:
Also i believe the mg81 is a tad to accurate as its literally a minigun with no spread (which i believe is a tad weak and for some reason has very short range)
i agree, looks very accurate, about weak or not - apparently, mainly it's problem of DM of concrete soviet planes, but in total personally i can't say what mg-81 really weak and not dangerous...

about range of fire - it's very very important theme too - i remember how read how famous pilot Vorozheikin tried to shoot diving ju-88s with around 1500 meters, in game it's just unreal even on yak-9t...

ie your example with mg-81 and others like ns-37/45, vya-23, UB ie powerful guns in compare with range of fire of .50, 37 mm gun of p-39 (63 too?) looks just strange... like and visualisation of hits of HE on ground... in fact, it's my wish for next patch, but at this moment i just don't know all true about fuses for ns-37, so, that's why i don't write about it...


well, and since we're talking about shells/belts, attached several pics, where -

1 hurri IIc in UK? personally i see in belts "2 ap - 2 he"...

2 soviet "харитон" IIc, i see only one type of shells, although, maybe, it's "staging" or because of lack of AP at this moment...

3 again, hurri IIc in UK? and again one type of shells like on previous pic...


and about shells/belts for yak-9t (later about il-2 with 2 ns-37)...

continuation of this post, apparently, need new belts for yak-9t like "только бронебойные снаряды", for AT missions (and this can help with problem of blank hits of HE shells for 37/45 mm) - example -
Quote:
У меня боезапас был, что-то около 30-ти бронебойных снарядов (сколько точно уже не помню), вот я их все по танкам и расстрелял.
maybe, need and "2 HE+1AP" too for attack of "soft" ground targets (if now 1he+1ap? well, 3 belt in ideal and in total), how said pilot...

in any case, it's just logical...

and if this true, need belts like "only HE" at least for first combat tests of yak-9t (f. e. new loadout for something like "yak-9t early" with 520-530 kph at sl) -
Quote:
Снаряжение патронной ленты производилось по-разному. В некоторых полках половина боекомплекта снаряжалась патронами с бронебойными (без наконечника) и осколочными снарядами. После запрета снаряжать орудия бронебойными патронами со снарядами без наконечников использовали только патроны с осколочными снарядами. Других боеприпасов на складах 16-й ВА не было.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg hurri-2.jpg (37.5 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg hariton.jpg (128.5 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg hurri-1.jpg (33.8 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg belt for P-38.jpg (54.8 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg belt for yak or lagg-3.jpg (88.1 KB, 16 views)
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  #7  
Old 02-16-2013, 07:34 PM
majorfailure majorfailure is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
all or almost all guns in game very accurate, so, it's global problem of ballistics and weapons in game, and about concrete gunnery in game - mg-151-20 are laser too, just need more effort and concentration in compare with shvak, it's personally my experience from online wars...
I don't think its purely a problem of correct ballistics - its the players themselves. Most of us have more virtual experience than any real pilot ever had. And we can try anything -we will not be punished for stupidity or bad luck by serious injury or loss of life - a luxury no real pilot can afford. We can just comfortably lean back in our chairs -feel no exhaustion, no environmental factors, no stress, no fear, we aren't really there - its just a game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by panzer1b View Post
yaks are the biggest issue for me as those have only only one 20mm with barely any ammo, and a useless 12.7mm with just as few rounds.
Don't consider UBS useless. Beautiful ballistics, high RoF, and for a machinegun good power. Best HMG in game. Try Italian planes with dual 12.7mm BREDA-SAFATs - best gunnery training I ever did. Fly an Italian campaign vs. AI - or just QMB, if you can get multiple kills on a regular basis, most other armaments will suddenly seem powerful.
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  #8  
Old 02-16-2013, 09:46 PM
IceFire IceFire is offline
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No idea why people think the UBS is a useless weapon. It's by far the most powerful of the heavy machine guns with superior rate of fire, ballistics, muzzle velocity, and ultimately hitting power. I fire the UBS and ShVAK on the Yak separately. The UBS for precision hitting and the 20mm when I'm in more of a tense dogfight and I'm counting on just one or two shots connecting.

You can score 3-4 kills in a Yak. Just like you can in most other types. But you can't waste bullets and this is a great plane to train you to only make the shots you know you can hit with. Fly the same way in a FW190 and you can walk away with 6, 7...8 kills.
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  #9  
Old 02-18-2013, 08:35 PM
1984 1984 is offline
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finally i read this book - Пушки для боевых самолетов, А.Э. Нудельман, 1993 - well, it's just about guns in total, have some interesting details, but no more than "n-37 was tested on yak-9 and serial production started later" ie no any news for us, but, have technical information about ns-37 in total and report about lagg-3...

well, report confirms number of shells, 36, what very logically - 120-140 shells for shvak and 30-32 shells for ns-37, for yak-9, in compare 150-160/36 for lagg-3 - and have information about rate of fire, max. 290 after some shots, min. 232 after some shot, average 258 what confirms technical description of ns-37...

personally i think what info enough and it's can be fix already now, especially, because 20 vs 36 it's really difference...
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:17 PM
IceFire IceFire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
finally i read this book - Пушки для боевых самолетов, А.Э. Нудельман, 1993 - well, it's just about guns in total, have some interesting details, but no more than "n-37 was tested on yak-9 and serial production started later" ie no any news for us, but, have technical information about ns-37 in total and report about lagg-3...

well, report confirms number of shells, 36, what very logically - 120-140 shells for shvak and 30-32 shells for ns-37, for yak-9, in compare 150-160/36 for lagg-3 - and have information about rate of fire, max. 290 after some shots, min. 232 after some shot, average 258 what confirms technical description of ns-37...

personally i think what info enough and it's can be fix already now, especially, because 20 vs 36 it's really difference...
BTW: Yak-9UT thanks to research and TD's help has 30 rounds on the NS-37mm. Which aircraft has 20 rounds? I'm having trouble following you. What is in-game and what should it be based on your research?
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