P-51 Combat Tips and Tricks ( Dogfight Guide )

[Black_Sage29]

Just saw your p-51 mustang compilation video Thor. wow..the was beautiful. A work of art. Very nice flying

[MaxGunz]

The pilot makes a bigger difference than the plane.

"Plane X is better than plane Y" is an error in thinking. These planes don't fly themselves and it's not what you meet online but who that really matters.

Next most important is the situation. Then comes the plane.

So many kills in so many minutes.... do you count the mudhens? Then stop. Mudhens don't count.

[RegRag1977]

Originally Posted by MaxGunz

The pilot makes a bigger difference than the plane.

"Plane X is better than plane Y" is an error in thinking. These planes don't fly themselves and it's not what you meet online but who that really matters.

Next most important is the situation. Then comes the plane.

So many kills in so many minutes.... do you count the mudhens? Then stop. Mudhens don't count.

I agree.

[pandacat]

Thor is by far one of the best pony drivers I have ever known along with Kling, who I believe has quit the game long time ago. I also have really enjoyed your video, cheers! I also believe p51 is one of the best in the game even though I don't know how realistically the FM of a real Stang is being portraited here. There has been a long history of debate on this subject on many forums and I don't want get into that here. But in my gut feeling, its FM probably is not on par with that of Accusim one or DCS one, being a game 10yrs + old. What is really lacking for Mustang in this game is its armement. 6 50's in this game is really a peashooter. As a matter of fact I don't c any difference between 4 50's and 6 50's or even between 6 50's and 4 30's. I have seen many WWII gun cams where 190's and 109s got shredded by 50's, but you don't c that much here in the game.

For those veteran pony drivers in this game, would someone be kind enough to disclose a bit tricks on how to properly trim this aircraft? Is it as long as the ball is center then you are perfectly trimmed? Also some tips on how to use Pro Pitch. I know someone will tell me there are Kling's videos, but those are 5yrs old now and the game has been patched so many time since. Are those tips still valid?

[Janosch]

Originally Posted by pandacat

6 50's in this game is really a peashooter.

No, no, no it isn't.

[panzer1b]

Originally Posted by Janosch

No, no, no it isn't.

i agree but i still have to say i do not exactly "FEAR" 6 50s in a fw190

sure ive been killed plenty of times by them but thats usually a luckshot to the pilot or controls, rarely have i ever lost a wing (dont remember that in the last year honestly), and usually it takes a nice long burst to kill with the 50s, while a single good deflection shot will at best explode to 50cal, and at worst shut off his engine (most often its either a wing lost or black smoke/fire from engine).

now 4 20s are a HUGE threat in anything you flyy be it a fw190 or a b17, that loadout just obliterates anything with a good deflection shot and bombers with a good 1 second burst to a vulnereable spot (or just dewings it)



and as for the p51 i think its a greatly misunderstood plane

most people who fly them casually are just plain terrible, as in riupping wings off at high speed, stalling at low, and trying to outturn a zero ect

the better pilots are more then a fight and often times i end up with a damaged plane heading home. still on most online servers these pilots camp altitude and are more of a nuissance that either bnz (easily countered when hes at 700+) or try to get you when you climb to attack him (countered by flying far enough he does not see you climbing or avoiding high altitude all together). they rarely kill you if you know what you are doing but still removing a good p51 pilot from the skys is a very tough job, as he can almost always run away from you.

in good hands the p51 is downright a very hard plane to kill, then again same can be said of anything which they just will not let you get anywhere near them without fertilizing the landscape with your wreckage

[T}{OR]

^^ Good post.

The biggest problem with .50s is to learn how to use them most effectively. What would undoubtedly make them more effective is if we had an option to set individual convergence (like in CloD). That would spread them out and more easily hurt anyone on the receiving end.

This is where I think, P-47 with its 8x.50 cals has an advantage. By pressing just your guns trigger you will fire only 2 pairs, to fire the other two you need to press your cannons trigger. Logic implies that different convergence for guns and cannons gives you different settings for each 2 pairs of .50. I need to test this in the game, but I am pretty sure this is the case.

Back to P-51. In order to maximize their efficiency you really need to fire in the ideal convergence range (as I demonstrated in the video). Best way of teaching yourself that is by just loading up QMB and trying to strafe soft targets on the ground. Soon you will learn not to fire too soon or too late.


Done a few sorties online lately and IIRC there was an P-51 FM change in one of the patches by TD? I had to change the way I fly to get the most out of the plane. Here is what I would recommend for 4.11.1, for COMBAT operations:

• Keep the radiator on AUTO, no need to touch it at all.
• Trim for +500 km/h IAS: RESET then apply 8 clicks of right rudder and 14 clicks of nose down elevators.
• Keep an eye on your manifold pressure, about 55" is just what is needed for COMBAT operations below 4000m. Above that you will need 100% power or more to maintain 55", especially in the range where the blower switches to high.
• Propeller pitch below 4000m is best set on 90-95. For steep climbing when speed drops below 400 km/h IAS use 100 PP.
• The same procedure goes if you're diving on someone or running away. Use 95-100 PP for the initial part of the dive while you reach 500 km/h IAS - then drop to 60-70 PP and observe Mustangs insane acceleration that no piston powered plane can match (apart from Dora if you started with same E levels).
• If running away / chasing a fast contact (e.g. Ar-234), after you level out at about +800 km/h IAS remove 4 clicks of rudder (for total 4 clicks of right rudder) to keep the ball centered. Use 70-80 PP to maintain E and speed.
• At +650 km/h IAS be very careful not to lose wings. Especially if using 100 across the whole range of your controller.

With the above combat settings you can easily keep the plane above 500 km/h IAS at all times. Cruise settings of 50" and 2700 RPM (~ 80 Power / 80 PP) will get you far whilst saving fuel. When you're done perfecting in the D model, grab Mustang III.



EDIT: And always remember that 50% fuel is sufficient for 2h flight on full power. Never ever take more than 20-30%. Save fuel by using cruise settings. Drop tanks are just for show. With 30% you only need to check your fuel tank behind your left shoulder (in reality IIRC this one was drained first as it changed P-51s CoG drastically, perhaps another thing for TD to fix...).

[pandacat]

Originally Posted by T}{OR

^^ Good post.

The biggest problem with .50s is to learn how to use them most effectively. What would undoubtedly make them more effective is if we had an option to set individual convergence (like in CloD). That would spread them out and more easily hurt anyone on the receiving end.

This is where I think, P-47 with its 8x.50 cals has an advantage. By pressing just your guns trigger you will fire only 2 pairs, to fire the other two you need to press your cannons trigger. Logic implies that different convergence for guns and cannons gives you different settings for each 2 pairs of .50. I need to test this in the game, but I am pretty sure this is the case.

Back to P-51. In order to maximize their efficiency you really need to fire in the ideal convergence range (as I demonstrated in the video). Best way of teaching yourself that is by just loading up QMB and trying to strafe soft targets on the ground. Soon you will learn not to fire too soon or too late.


Done a few sorties online lately and IIRC there was an P-51 FM change in one of the patches by TD? I had to change the way I fly to get the most out of the plane. Here is what I would recommend for 4.11.1, for COMBAT operations:

• Keep the radiator on AUTO, no need to touch it at all.
• Trim for +500 km/h IAS: RESET then apply 8 clicks of right rudder and 14 clicks of nose down elevators.
• Keep an eye on your manifold pressure, about 55" is just what is needed for COMBAT operations below 4000m. Above that you will need 100% power or more to maintain 55", especially in the range where the blower switches to high.
• Propeller pitch below 4000m is best set on 90-95. For steep climbing when speed drops below 400 km/h IAS use 100 PP.
• The same procedure goes if you're diving on someone or running away. Use 95-100 PP for the initial part of the dive while you reach 500 km/h IAS - then drop to 60-70 PP and observe Mustangs insane acceleration that no piston powered plane can match (apart from Dora if you started with same E levels).
• If running away / chasing a fast contact (e.g. Ar-234), after you level out at about +800 km/h IAS remove 4 clicks of rudder (for total 4 clicks of right rudder) to keep the ball centered. Use 70-80 PP to maintain E and speed.
• At +650 km/h IAS be very careful not to lose wings. Especially if using 100 across the whole range of your controller.

With the above combat settings you can easily keep the plane above 500 km/h IAS at all times. Cruise settings of 50" and 2700 RPM (~ 80 Power / 80 PP) will get you far whilst saving fuel. When you're done perfecting in the D model, grab Mustang III.



EDIT: And always remember that 50% fuel is sufficient for 2h flight on full power. Never ever take more than 20-30%. Save fuel by using cruise settings. Drop tanks are just for show. With 30% you only need to check your fuel tank behind your left shoulder (in reality IIRC this one was drained first as it changed P-51s CoG drastically, perhaps another thing for TD to fix...).

Thor, thanks for all the tips. Most of what you said is absolutely rite. I have tested these settings. Especially the radiator part. Just leave it on Auto, no need to play with it. My PP settings are a little different from yours. You can test mine to see if it's better.
1. level flight, >300 90%PP, >400 80%
2. Dive, initially 90% until I get to >400, reduce it 80% and above 600 down to 50%.
3. Climb, shallow at 90%, steep <300 100%
I set PP as bands on my throttle slider. Actually, anything lower than 50% PP is useless in this sim, so my lowest setting is 50%.

I have learned the lesson not to bang my throttle against the wall. It was cuz my throttle malfunctioned and I couldn't get to 110% that night, LOL. I mainly fly offline campagin. The problem is when you start off as a low rank flight officer, you don't get the right to change fuel load. At 100%, Stang is just a pig to fly. Later, I cheated by starting off as a major and set my starting fuel load at 25% and bring 2 drop tanks if it's a long patrol/flight. From my experience, convergence at 200 is better than 140 as described by Kling. For in-game 50cal, you need longer duration for your bursts. If the convergence 2 short, then you get 2 little time for your post shot manuver and often times end up colliding with the enemy's wreckage.

With regards to the aft fuesalage tank and COG issue, what Thor said is absolutely right for real Stang. If you take 2 identical p-51D's, one loaded with 25gal in each wing and the other 50gal in the fuesalage tank. The one with wing tank loaded will have very different and better performance curve than the fuesalage tank loaded one even though their weights r exactly the same. IL-2 as a game just took a simplified approch; it doesn't distinguish between wing tanks and fuesalage tank. I wonder, for those who have A2A P-51 or DCS P-51, if they can feel any difference.

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by pandacat

Thor is by far one of the best pony drivers I have ever known along with Kling, who I believe has quit the game long time ago. I also have really enjoyed your video, cheers! I also believe p51 is one of the best in the game even though I don't know how realistically the FM of a real Stang is being portraited here. There has been a long history of debate on this subject on many forums and I don't want get into that here. But in my gut feeling, its FM probably is not on par with that of Accusim one or DCS one, being a game 10yrs + old. What is really lacking for Mustang in this game is its armement. 6 50's in this game is really a peashooter. As a matter of fact I don't c any difference between 4 50's and 6 50's or even between 6 50's and 4 30's. I have seen many WWII gun cams where 190's and 109s got shredded by 50's, but you don't c that much here in the game.

For those veteran pony drivers in this game, would someone be kind enough to disclose a bit tricks on how to properly trim this aircraft? Is it as long as the ball is center then you are perfectly trimmed? Also some tips on how to use Pro Pitch. I know someone will tell me there are Kling's videos, but those are 5yrs old now and the game has been patched so many time since. Are those tips still valid?

Thanks for the kind words. I did enjoy making that video a lot.

6x50s are more than enough if you know how to discipline yourself and fire at the right distance / set convergence. I think I demonstrated that very nicely in my video. And that was even before we got more API rounds in the belt.

Few tips, as requested:

• When pulling deflection shots, add a little more deflection than you think is needed - .50 are a bit slower, especially if you are used to german MGs.
• Trim the nose down, I personally used 14 clicks (on keyboard) after resetting to zero first. I flew with this setting all the time. This alone will make it a much more stable firing platform.
• Trim the rudder for different speeds, in particular for level flight and when diving. For me, this varied from 2 clicks when doing +800 km/h to 8-10 clicks for level flight. Do it even when zoom climbing.
• Fly with closed radiator and do not use WEP (over 100% power) below 3000m as it serves no purpose. *
• Learn to use your gunsight. My ideal convergence (in the video) was 200m.
• Some people recommend adjusting axes for elevators in order not to break the wings so easily if you are not careful. Both Kling and I used 100 on all axes for faster response when firing.

* I didn't even took it to skies with this new overheating FM. Needs checking.

Looking back now few years later, I came to conclusion that my perfectionism and diligence, especially with trimming for every speed and maneuver helped a lot with achieving those victories in a Mustang. I did have evenings when nothing seemed to work and I got damaged or shot down by insanely lucky maneuvers or as result of my stupid mistakes. But those were fewer than what I experienced and showed in the video.

As far as Mustang being an excellent fighter - you really need to clean up your mind of all the stuff you heard / saw at History channel. For escort duties and long ranges, where you need the speed and do not wish to lose time by dogfighting P-51 was and still is an ideal plane. You will soon learn to appreciate the possibility of disengaging when you are outnumbered. And extending away to gain altitude for another strike.


EDIT: Superseded by post #42.

[T}{OR]

Since the original link is long dead now, I am copying this over from BFs forums.

First of all, let's talk about the instruments.
Besides the Pitot and static instruments, we shall focus on the engine section.
In order of importance we have:

1. Manifold Pressure
2. Tachometer
3. Carb. Air Temp
4. Coolant temp.
5. The multi-function engine gauge

The various models have these gauges in different locations, but a zoom in will reveal their location on the panel.
For ME, the most important gauges are Manifold pressure and Propeller RPM/Governor RPM. Without a proper setting on either, you are wasting E and fuel.

Right up front I must explain the psychological aspect of airspeed.
Most of us want top speed RIGHT NOW. If you fall into this category, you might consider moving along to a different aircraft.
The P-51 accelerates well from zero to about 200MPH in most flight regimes. Try to take him over that in a hurry will reward you with a hot engine and perhaps death. Since the acceleration is so gradual in the Pony, most consider him to be a DOG in the sky. I suppose he is compared to the HotRods like the Spit, 109, LA5 etc. The huge difference is that the P51 is a high wing-loaded fighter that is slippery as hell at high speeds. When you get him up to high speed, he holds E very well unless you abuse him.
Having said all this, let's get to the meat of the matter.

I suggest you take a test hop in a P-51D-20NA to start off with. I suggest 100% fuel with no droptanks. Take off at 100% power (WEP) is useless on the deck).
As soon as you clean up (Raise gear and flaps) adjust rudder and elevator trim for straight and level flight. Adjust the throttle to 50" Manifold Pressure (There is a handy red line on the gauge) and set the RPM to 2700. (Top end of the green band)
Adjust your elevator trim for 1500 feet per minute rate of climb and keep the 'Ball' on the turn/bank indicator in the center. The moment the airspeed picks up, you will notice a pitch-up of the nose as well as a skid/slip opposite of torque. Keep fiddling with the two trims to maintain the 1500' FPM climb.
As you pass through about 12,500' ASL, you will see the manifold pressure reading drop drastically. This is the automatic supercharger changing to High Blower. Since an abrupt change would cause detonation and destruction of the pistons, the supercharger wastegate is opened to keep the boost levels reasonable. If you add power, the gauge will climb, then pop back to a lower setting. This is normal. The trick is to be patient and let the aircraft climb up into it's most effective flight envelope. (Maxing out around 25,000ASL) Once you get up to around 15k, you will notice the manifold pressure climbing until you must reduce throttle or go into overboost. (More than 50" pressure)

Now, having flown up that high a few times, you can start to get a feel for the different 'Sweet Spots' the Mustang has.
To make the best use of the P51s abilities, you must understand that patience is critical. If you want to get up to 450MPH, you are going to have to earn it. Think of the Pony as a medium weight automobile with tons of horsepower, but little torque. You can accelerate well for a bit, but then the load is too much for the engine. To advance further, you must change gears (Prop RPM) and maintain a reasonable power setting. The trick is to level out, set power for 50" pressure, 2700 RPM prop and keep him straight. Over the period of about 3-5 minutes suddenly you are going 350MPH. You can roll the power back to 40" pressure at 2700RPM and watch the airplane accelerate even more. If you choose to pull some pitch, beware that the airspeed will drop quickly. the solution there is to bring prop pitch up gradually as you pull up, while adding power up to the redline. If you do this too soon, you waste a few 'Gears' in between.
If you find yourself running WEP with prop RPM over 2800 and not taking off or in a weeds turn fight, you are wasting power and fuel.
You will discover that 2700RPM is the sweet spot for the prop. To get this, you may need to have a 75% throttle at 18k, but 90 on the deck.
The way the 'Stang was designed was radically different from previous aircraft. The pilot selects the power setting and prop RPM, and the controls took care of the rest. If the pilot wants endurance, he chooses say 65% power and 2500RPM, which will take him from Bristol to Berlin and back with fuel left over. If he wants max performance, he chooses a power setting for 2700/50+" pressure and watches the carb air temp as well as coolant temp. Keeping the Pony too long with either level too high will actually slow him down to the point at which he is a BRICK in the sky.

^^
I used 90-95 PP on the deck.