Answers to Community Questions

[GloDark7]

Originally Posted by Chivas

So you think that the devs can't improve COD's game engine? I know your a fan of Warthunder. Gaijin is using the same game engine for Warthunder that it used for their less than successful WOP sim and I would imagine that Gaijin is doing some major improvements to their game engine to make Warthunder a success. Atleast to have any chance of drawing support from the IL-2 crowd.

I'm afraid I have very little confidence in that area sadly. After all this time since CloD's release there have been no major breakthroughs with updates to the engine and it's difficult to be optimistic about it at all. Hearing that the sequel will be using this same engine fills me with dread.

Yes, I am a fan of Gaijin's work and also an IL-2/MG fan for many years before this. I am very impressed with Gaijin's WoP (Dagor) engine. Regardless of what you may think about WoP as a title and entry to the genre, it's graphics engine set a new bar. It may have had an unusual green filter on the Britain map(!) but the engine itself was a breakthrough. It makes perfect sense that Gaijin would use this foundation and improve upon it for their next project. In stark contrast 1C have an engine that was broken on day one, has seen little improvement after over a year and THIS is the foundation for their sequel! How can this instil any confidence? It certainly doesn't for me I'm afraid. This engine has gone as far as it can go in my eyes. IT is the bottleneck, not the hardware.

Now, we are getting one last update for CloD. A make or break update really. Sadly CloD is already broken so it either 'makes' it or it stays broken. Then how long till the sequel arrives that uses the SAME engine?

1C may not learn from their mistakes, but the fan base will.

Glo

[Mysticpuma]

Sadly I do have to agree. Gaijin may only have small maps but the graphics engine for the lighting, clouds, ground objects and many more VISUAL effects is completely superior, HOWEVER the detail of the cockpits and aircraft themselves are not comparable.

The Green tinge Glo refers to isn't really an issue as a quick tweak in the graphics engine could fix this in seconds.

I would love to see IL2 1946 imported into the WoP or WT game engine. That way we get great clouds, great landscape, great reflections, lighting and huge benefits.

The only thing that IL2 needs to bring across is the 3D models for the aircraft, the FM and DM (once netcode and patches have been done).

The GRAPHICS engine if modified for CloD or BoM is far superior and is actually working and runs at full detail (Cinema Mode) on reasonable systems. Not the beasts that everyone has to employ to even get 30-fps in CloD.


Look, I like IL2: 1946 it's incredible. We already know that CloD is dead and now we wait to see if the 19-months of fixes they tried to do in CloD can be thrown out of the window and the new Graphics engine (hang on isn't it the same one?) will work fine?

If Gaijin had created the GRAPHICS engine for ClOD no-one would be sitting here bleating about not being able to run it smoothly, tree pop-up, tree collisions not working, building pop-up, draw distance...no-one (other than the die-hards of course!), but they didn't.

So now we can wait and see if Luthier can actually get rid of the 'Legacy' graphics engine from IL2 and CloD (both had horrendous pop-up buildings and textures) and start with the 'new' all-singing, all-dancing and fully working Graphics engine.

No-one doubts that CloD and IL2 are far superior in Simulation but I would disagree with anyone who says the immersion is fine, as Graphics make you believe what you are seeing and the clouds, rain, smoke, fire are all superior in WoP and WT than that in CloD but I'd have to question Gaijin's Graphics against the detail and realism of DM/FM and much better damage modelling of fire and smoke/fuel leak in the modded HSFX 6.01 (and soon to be 4.12).

As much as I may harp on about this clip, nothing in IL" or CloD matches the weather and cloud effects (true opaque clouds = 3D fighting above and below) and no pop-up of buildings.

Surely the 'far' superior and expert 1C can produce this at a minimum when the 'lowly' Gaijin who many treat with disdain, can manage this?

http://youtu.be/QJF_oPrvNtU

So if the 'lowly' Gaijin can produce the above with a 'rubbish' game engine, what the heck are 1C doing with all their experience?

Anyway, I still hope for the best with CloD, but HSFX 6.01 is my ride of choice while we wait for another 2-years for BoM.

But I still dabble with Wings of Prey...it looks amazing and so does the terrain!

MP

[Chivas]

Originally Posted by GloDark7

I'm afraid I have very little confidence in that area sadly. After all this time since CloD's release there have been no major breakthroughs with updates to the engine and it's difficult to be optimistic about it at all. Hearing that the sequel will be using this same engine fills me with dread.

Yes, I am a fan of Gaijin's work and also an IL-2/MG fan for many years before this. I am very impressed with Gaijin's WoP (Dagor) engine. Regardless of what you may think about WoP as a title and entry to the genre, it's graphics engine set a new bar. It may have had an unusual green filter on the Britain map(!) but the engine itself was a breakthrough. It makes perfect sense that Gaijin would use this foundation and improve upon it for their next project. In stark contrast 1C have an engine that was broken on day one, has seen little improvement after over a year and THIS is the foundation for their sequel! How can this instil any confidence? It certainly doesn't for me I'm afraid. This engine has gone as far as it can go in my eyes. IT is the bottleneck, not the hardware.

Now, we are getting one last update for CloD. A make or break update really. Sadly CloD is already broken so it either 'makes' it or it stays broken. Then how long till the sequel arrives that uses the SAME engine?

1C may not learn from their mistakes, but the fan base will.

Glo

If WOP was as good as you say the Il-2 community would have moved to the Gaijin development in droves. That never happened the SimHq Gaijin forum is dead, WOP maps were too small for anything other than mindless furbals, and I haven't seen anything yet that has changed. Personally I hope Gaijin will be able to improve their game engine to include the Global Map they've been talking about and still have decent terrain. Contrary to what you say COD has made advancements in the sound engine, performance, FM, engine management features, and should continue to improve until the Sequel is released. The only difference between the COD development and the Gaijin development is the NDA which effectively stops most negative points of view.

[flyingblind]

I find this attitude rather strange in a thread where Luthier is answering questions from the forum folk after dozens of vitriolic posts on the lack of communication. As soon as he opens his mouth he is a bare faced liar. I hope no one is expecting lots more communication anytime soon.

I can't help feeling that some seem to have a rather tenuous grasp on reality. Sure, you have bought a game and are entitled to something fit for purpose but on receipt if it is not you are also entitled to return it and get your money back. If you choose to hang on to it then that is up to you.

Clearly customers are crucial to a business and a business needs to keep it's customers happy if it wants to be there for the long haul. But as Luthier has said quite bluntly that the only way to keep enough customers happy to survive is by providing a game that is good enough for large numbers to buy and enjoy. Trying to placate a small bunch of vocal malcontents who's main aim in life is to hurl abuse at him is a complete waste of time.

The reality is that he can no longer afford to bring CloD fully up to scratch before releasing the sequel. The sequel will benefit CloD but if it is not a success on release then I think you can say goodbye to the whole series. What will make it a success is good reviews as much as comments in forums. Don't forget that there will be one final official update for CloD that should make it far better and worth your money.

And what about your money on an individual basis? Assuming that you paid full price and didn't get it discounted or on the cheap from Russia than it would be about £50 or 50 bucks or whatever. If there are 50 people working on CloD then that is a pound or a euro or a dollar each. What can you get for that? A cup of coffee? Or maybe two if from a vending machine or three as they are in Moscow.

So all the little group of Mr Angrys together on this forum have done for CloD financially is kept the office in coffee for a week or two at most. Go figure.

I also think the latest update is a good improvement and that they can deliver a good series. I wonder if many people would not just be happy with the old IL2 but with CloD graphics. But CloD starts where IL2 left off. Take just the question on a manual for operating planes. With IL2 one set of controls worked for all planes so only one basic manual was needed especially as engine management was pretty basic. With CloD they want you to be able to use the actual manuals used by the pilots of the time for each different plane. How cool is that.

It might not be quite there yet but I really believe Luthiers vision is for a grown up game for adults and certainly not something for the Xbox generation.

[Chivas]

Originally Posted by Sandstone

Their performance to date suggests they probably can't.

Thats definitely a possibility especially if you disregard all the aspects of the sim that are already working. They have made advancements in the sound engine, performance, FM, Engine Management. Time will tell, but the longer they obtain financial support to work on the sim, the more likely things will get sorted.

[Icebear]

Originally Posted by Chivas

Thats definitely a possibility especially if you disregard all the aspects of the sim that are already working. They have made advancements in the sound engine, performance, FM, Engine Management. Time will tell, but the longer they obtain financial support to work on the sim, the more likely things will get sorted.

Sim(ulation) or MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online Game)? These are two completely different pair of shoes as they address two completely different range of customers. If I got Luther right his new cash cow or "sequel" will be a MMO with complex engine management. So neither fish nor fowl and too late as the competition already entered the market!

Good luck ladies !

[Lexicon]

Originally Posted by Chivas

If WOP was as good as you say the Il-2 community would have moved to the Gaijin development in droves. That never happened the SimHq Gaijin forum is dead.

The WT forum is dead probably beacause all the fans are busy having a blast playing WT ! And although its under NDA, I don't read that many complaints anywhere...yet.
But THIS forum is active due principally to the fact that a lot of fans are very disapointed and feel that complaining at this point is more enjoyable than playing CLOD !

Nite !

[Chivas]

Originally Posted by Icebear

Sim(ulation) or MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online Game)? These are two completely different pair of shoes as they address two completely different range of customers. If I got Luther right his new cash cow or "sequel" will be a MMO with complex engine management. So neither fish nor fowl and too late as the competition already entered the market!

Good luck ladies !

They may be two completely different pair of shoes, but they can be done with basicly the same game engine, and add another source of revenue. It remains to be seen what direction the development will head. It could go only the Sequel route, only the MMO route, or both. Both would be better for revenue, but I'm not sure how difficult it would be to support both, even though they use almost exactly the same content, other than an MMO might not require extensive AI, and AI command software.

[GloDark7]

Originally Posted by Chivas

If WOP was as good as you say the Il-2 community would have moved to the Gaijin development in droves. That never happened the SimHq Gaijin forum is dead, WOP maps were too small for anything other than mindless furbals, and I haven't seen anything yet that has changed.

Did you properly read my post? I never expressed my opinions on the merits of WoP as a title. I said nothing of the game itself or what I think of it. I was talking about the engine. It's foundation, ground breaking engine compared to CloD's broken engine (from launch to present). It seems crazy to me that 1C will continue on this same path with the sequel as there does not seem much hope for the existing engine. What can they do with it in the next year that they didn't do over the last one?

The SimHQ Gaijin titles forum is dead indeed. A very different story exists over at the official Gaijin forums where there is an enormous amount of activity that is hidden from public view in the private forum. Activity I can't discuss in detail due to NDA.

Originally Posted by Chivas

Personally I hope Gaijin will be able to improve their game engine to include the Global Map they've been talking about and still have decent terrain. Contrary to what you say COD has made advancements in the sound engine, performance, FM, engine management features, and should continue to improve until the Sequel is released. The only difference between the COD development and the Gaijin development is the NDA which effectively stops most negative points of view.

I have both positive and negative points of view on WT but respect the NDA enough not to talk about either or the title's development outside of the Closed Beta. I wouldn't be much use to development if I said everything was just peachy and don't change anything you great guys!

Like I said, I have been an IL-2 fan for years and Storm of War was the great hope and dream. I am a fan of the genre and will add what I can to my hobby collection which should include CloD. Currently it is not on my SSD and wont be until I see the results of the final update (Steam backup waiting on an external drive). All hope lies there but any optimism I had has turned to almost complete pessimism over the past year and I won't be holding my breath. Any improvements made so far (placebo or real) always seem to come with a side-order of things that are broken.

How can CloD "continue to improve" as you say, if this is the final update (when it hits Steam)? This is it! If it remains broken after this last update, community developed content won't offer much salvation if half of it still doesn't work.

Glo

[Frequent_Flyer]

Originally Posted by flyingblind

I find this attitude rather strange in a thread where Luthier is answering questions from the forum folk after dozens of vitriolic posts on the lack of communication. As soon as he opens his mouth he is a bare faced liar. I hope no one is expecting lots more communication anytime soon.

I can't help feeling that some seem to have a rather tenuous grasp on reality. Sure, you have bought a game and are entitled to something fit for purpose but on receipt if it is not you are also entitled to return it and get your money back. If you choose to hang on to it then that is up to you.

Clearly customers are crucial to a business and a business needs to keep it's customers happy if it wants to be there for the long haul. But as Luthier has said quite bluntly that the only way to keep enough customers happy to survive is by providing a game that is good enough for large numbers to buy and enjoy. Trying to placate a small bunch of vocal malcontents who's main aim in life is to hurl abuse at him is a complete waste of time.

The reality is that he can no longer afford to bring CloD fully up to scratch before releasing the sequel. The sequel will benefit CloD but if it is not a success on release then I think you can say goodbye to the whole series. What will make it a success is good reviews as much as comments in forums. Don't forget that there will be one final official update for CloD that should make it far better and worth your money.

And what about your money on an individual basis? Assuming that you paid full price and didn't get it discounted or on the cheap from Russia than it would be about £50 or 50 bucks or whatever. If there are 50 people working on CloD then that is a pound or a euro or a dollar each. What can you get for that? A cup of coffee? Or maybe two if from a vending machine or three as they are in Moscow.

So all the little group of Mr Angrys together on this forum have done for CloD financially is kept the office in coffee for a week or two at most. Go figure.

I also think the latest update is a good improvement and that they can deliver a good series. I wonder if many people would not just be happy with the old IL2 but with CloD graphics. But CloD starts where IL2 left off. Take just the question on a manual for operating planes. With IL2 one set of controls worked for all planes so only one basic manual was needed especially as engine management was pretty basic. With CloD they want you to be able to use the actual manuals used by the pilots of the time for each different plane. How cool is that.

It might not be quite there yet but I really believe Luthiers vision is for a grown up game for adults and certainly not something for the Xbox generation.

you make a number of exceellent points. I think Luither may have over promised and under delivered. ultimately actions speak louder than words and if the final patch fixes things within reason the majority should be content. However, there will always be the usual suspects droning on in favor of or against.to join chorus with " the FM's are inaccurate, etc.