British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by JG3_Hartmann

The Hurricane was, except for turning, outclassed by the 109 in everything, expect maybe for handling, and the Spitfire could turn better and was a bit faster below 4000m. But if they flew higher than 4000m the 109 was as fast as the Spit, even a bit faster.

Very good post mate! Just to clarify, noone expects the Hurricane to be able to outclimb the 109, but the fact that it does not have superior turn rate to either Spitfire or 109 is rather shocking. As it is, the Hurricane can't be flown to historical specs due to engine everheating issues AND you haven't got even the one and only advantage which was the good turnrate. Just as you mentioned it...

As for the atitude vs. speed when comparing the 109 and Spitfire - that was wrong way around actually and completely unhistorical. There is no altitude where Spitfire would enjoy speed superiority at all, and funnily enough, the only altitude where you can match the 109s was actually way above 4000m. I hope you get my point about the realtive FMs being completely wrong. Somehow they happen to be more frustrating for the red side at this moment, therefore I mostly agree with OP.

Originally Posted by JG3_Hartmann

But I have to say, even if I mostly fly the German planes (and just to make the list complete, the 110 is nearly 50km/h to slow too)

Oh yes, there is no doubt that the DB 601s are not up to specs, too. I love the 109 and I fly it very often, but in current version, I don't seem to 'feel' the lack of speed. I know the top speed is not correct and I hope it will be one day, but I never actually needed those 50km/h because of the RAF FMs. If they fixed both sides, the gap simply would not be as huge as it is now. That is my point...

Originally Posted by JG3_Hartmann

that it´s not much fun to fight with a Hurricane or Spitfire against a well flown 109.
Not enough that I could bang my head against the canopy everytime I have to start the engine, which is every time a fight if it will keep running or not , but also during the normal flight and during a fight. I may have some problems with the red engines, but without doubt I can say, there´s something rotten in the case of red fighters.

Exactly. Plus the overheating and you're frustrated as the OP.

Originally Posted by JG3_Hartmann

What I personally find very funny is, that over more than 10 years, it were mostly the blue planes who were undermodelled compared to the red (mostly Russian) planes (or maybe they were made better than they were), and now, we have a similar situation, although I think, it´s not so extreme like it was some years ago with old Il2.

Well, I also have 10+ years in 1946 and I remember all the FM changes. I flew with 'blue' squad and I never felt the 109s or 190 undermodelled. Quite the opposite with G-2 or G-6/AS . Of course there are Russian UFOs but they were beatable at certain conditions (altitude etc). I have lots of hours in all of the planes in 1946 including the crapplanes, especially them - so I can tell you that my opinion and experience is, that it's not so easy to beat any planes, especially the blue ones, if they're well flown. That's fair enough of course. There are more planes to choose from and the tactics and balance were easier to cope with. In CloD, you only have 3 main fighters and the 109 is untouchable unless he starts to do silly stuff. They're all porked, but the RAF ones are porked better

*edit* spelling

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Quoted for emphasis. Historical imbalances should be modeled.

Definitely, I have no problem with that at all. I actually chose to fly for the RAF because flying inferior planes is more of a challenge.

What I do have problem with is the status of the FMs for they do not reflect the so called reality at all. The perfiormance gap was nowhere close to what we have got in the sim in 1.08. Yes, there are some improvements throughout the current betas with some random changes (especially for the RAF as there are 2 new versions) and the changes are in good direction. But new issues with mixture, overheating and general performance are spoiling the fun for the RAF, hence this thread.

And what I don't understand is that there are people who never actually fly these planes (probably never even tried to use them in proper combat) and all they are gonna tell you is yeah yeah whatever, but the 109 is also 50km/h slower.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

I won't even get into how bad the G-50 is.

Actually, in the recent beta, it's a very nice and enjoyable plane. I personally like it a lot.

If you want to feel the frustration of the RAF lot, swap your 109 for a G.50 and fly 1 on 1 against some good Spitfire pilot (just joking of course)

[Boandlgramer]

Originally Posted by Robo.

And what I don't understand is that there are people who never actually fly these planes (probably never even tried to use them in proper combat) and all they are gonna tell you is yeah yeah whatever, but the 109 is also 50km/h slower.

I like the famous british humor

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Robo.

and all they are gonna tell you is yeah yeah whatever, but the 109 is also 50km/h slower.

People get defensive because there's an attitude on this forum that says that Axis pilots are just no-skill newbies who can only win because they have super planes. A lot of us are sick of it.

Who are these people going to fly their beloved spitfires against if all the axis pilots leave, which is seemingly what they want?

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Actually, in the recent beta, it's a very nice and enjoyable plane. I personally like it a lot.

If you want to feel the frustration of the RAF lot, swap your 109 for a G.50 and fly 1 on 1 against some good Spitfire pilot (just joking of course)

I haven't tried it in the new beta, but it used to be horrendous... like flying the Stuka except with worse climb rate.

[kristorf]

Originally Posted by Robo.

(just joking of course)

On this forum, I thought you knew better Robo.........

[V.4_Pogi]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Hey Pogi! This is not so much about tactics but about relative performance. Maybe you can take the Spitfire and show me how you defend against well flown 109 one day We've met on Repka 'mince meat' few times, you know what I mean mate... S!

I took your advice Robo, yesterday I flew Spit Ia 100 octane, and I have to say that I really enjoyed! I got 16.80 kills and only died twice, due to collisions (more than once had to bail out, thanks to the Spit damage resistance). I do not feel that I would have been at a disadvantage. I have to admit it was just a dogfight server and not the ATAG, but you're recommending it.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by Robo.

Actually, in the recent beta, it's a very nice and enjoyable plane. I personally like it a lot.

If you want to feel the frustration of the RAF lot, swap your 109 for a G.50 and fly 1 on 1 against some good Spitfire pilot (just joking of course)

I flew it before the patch and shot down 3 reds. It was so slow they could not stay behind me and I went even slower... They stalled







Hmmm some people want accurate flight models and others want "balanced" FM's... this is interesting.

I'd also like to see the correct roll rates and other things.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by V.4_Pogi

I took your advice Robo, yesterday I flew Spit Ia 100 octane, and I have to say that I really enjoyed! I got 16.80 kills and only died twice, due to collisions (more than once had to bail out, thanks to the Spit damage resistance). I do not feel that I would have been at a disadvantage. I have to admit it was just a dogfight server and not the ATAG, but you're recommending it.

Yeah I've seen you. I suggested before you take a Ia and fight some good 109 pilots - which you didn't do at all

You took the 100 octane on the Blue side of the Repka server and I've seen you crawling on the deck with red spits. It's rather easy to be the only Spit on the blue side, picking the Spitfires that are involved in a fight with the Blue 109s and turn with them while they're being bounced. Very good tactics, I have no problem with that, just saying You got some no-name pilots flying the Spitfires or 109s, turning on the deck. That is indeed a DF mince meat server with air-start and icons and any experienced pilot will do a lot of damage in such condition, no matter what he flies. You didn't get in fight with a single 109 flying higher up.

Yet, with lots of shared kills I've seen you bailing out or crash landing very often (that wouldn't happen to you so often in a 109 you know that ), I personally happened to attack you only 3 times, everytime you've seen me and tried to break but I had no problem to hit you hard (and I was flying the E-3, not E-4 with Minengeschoss) and you had to bale out immediately, so I am not sure about the Spitfire damage resistance). It can take some serious damage in the wings, I agree and I hope they will fix that at some point with the fuel tanks and other DM issues.

So again, get that Ia and fly some mid alt fights against good 109 pilot(s), chose Red when there are no 109s to help you and see how your K/D will be in that case. And try to do the same thing on a server with overheating ON, you'll cook your engine in no time. Just for the record - you can fly on Repka at 3000rpm all the time, but normally your limit is 2600 with slightly more for shor periods of time (like 2850 for few minutes) and that's it. The 109s though will fly same rpm on Repka on ATAG or anywhere because that's the way it is.