The 'Great Debate' - Spitfire vs BF109

[TomcatViP]

blablabla... nobody care Bongo. Keep concentrate on the subject today for once

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

blablabla... nobody care Bongo. Keep concentrate on the subject today for once

Oh and which subject would that be then?

[arthursmedley]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

It's true in real life, but ingame the things are a little different... because of this there are so many threads about aircraft's raw performance. Aircraft skills are far more important here than in real life.

Then we would be better off discussing the response time of the human synaptic system or even which popular joystick on the market has a better response curve. We seem to want historically accuate flight models so we can turn them into some online ego travesty.

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by Sammi79

I see your valid point and raise you a further consideration:

In the absence of the scientific information (which can also be flawed depending on the controls of the tests etc.) the best that can be done is a meta analysis of these first hand anecdotal accounts. the mean results of the combined whole of these accounts will be more accurate than any individual account, and if that is all that there is to go on, then we should go with that IMHO.

Regards,
Sam.

Agreed, like the port wing dropping in the stall first on the 109.

RoF has no data like we do for WW2 aircraft. As such their flight models are based upon this kind of info.


Sorry Sammi, but the graphs are out now and that only means one thing...

Regards.

Originally Posted by fruitbat

Rubbish, although what you said has to be taken into account, to ignore first hand evidence as hearsay completely is ridiculous imo.

I didnt mean totally ignore first hand accounts. I ment the graphs are data are pretty concrete. The memories - not so much.

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Ver very weak argument, the recall of these guys is way more than just skewed perspectives, these are memories forged from life or death scenarios, they would have analysed and recounted them over and over as young men and would have remained as lucid as their menory of a first love.

Two things that make certain its not nessicarly a accurate! - indeed.



Its the same as police witness statements. You can have ten witnesses all saying something different...

[bongodriver]

Farber...does your rule apply to the LW veterans annecdotes too?

[5./JG27.Farber]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Farber...does your rule apply to the LW veterans annecdotes too?

Of course...


What about the BoB pilot reports where both Spitfire and 109 pilots claimed the other NEVER turned inside of the other and vice versa? Its circumstancial to that pilots experience and perspective, place and time, air speeds and energy and the perspective of those from thier own judgement and perspective... This doesnt mean it is not true! However as there are so many conflicting reports we can only resign such reports to "folklore" and use the factually evidence of air speed climb rate etc... Only when many pilots agree on something can we consider to use it. - For example the port wing dropping near landing aproaching the stall and other such minor things.

[Seadog]

Originally Posted by 6S.Manu

Fantasies like this one?

No wonder Galland asked for a squadron of Spitfires...

OK, Galland states in his memoirs, The First and the Last, that he asked for an "...outfit of Spitfires, for his group..."

[bongodriver]

Originally Posted by Seadog

OK, Galland states in his memoirs, The First and the Last, that he asked for an "...outfit of Spitfires, for his group..."

Inadmissible using Farbers logic, Galland wen't on to say it was out of frustration and had no bearing on how he rated the Spitfire but of course being a human recounting a tale from the past he obviously didn't know what he was speaking about and he probably really did wan't a squadron of Spitfires.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Seadog

OK, Galland states in his memoirs, The First and the Last, that he asked for an "...outfit of Spitfires, for his group..."

Understand that Galland was a dignitary of the Nazi regime and as such might have needed to pleased the ear of the winners. Have yuou seen the vid when he did say that ? Hve a look, you'll understand what I mean.

This anecdote was debated by historian and among prime witnesses of that "scene" when asked the question replied that they don't remember G. saying that to RMG.

But once again and blablabla...

[arthursmedley]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

I didnt mean totally ignore first hand accounts. I ment the graphs are data are pretty concrete. The memories - not so much.

As we have seen, graphs and the interpretation of any data can be challenged because of the number of variables involved and whether the people producing these graphs were even aware of these variables.

Pilot, sorry, eyewitness accounts and memoirs are very often contemporaeneous to the events themselves and most were written if not during the war years then in their fairly immediate aftermath with logbooks and combat reports to back it up. Both RAF and LW accounts share a remarkable commonality in their fear of the bounce, the acceptance that most pilots shot down never saw their opponents and the acceptance that following an opponent round and round and round in a dogfight would invite a hail of lead from an unseen opportunist.

Arguments on every flight sim forum I've ever visited about aeroplane performance always degenerate into some "expert" denying the veracity of pilot accounts that differ from their own dearly held views because they know their graphs hold the real truth.