Whats with the Spit E retention?

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

In my case the Spit was always the plane i hated to fly against, was too easy to control and yet, because of this the temptation to fly foolish was too great, so i ended up doing worse in it than when flying other aircraft that require more discipline.

For example, a 190 needs disciplined flying just to fly, so i used that and as a result i wouldn't get into tight situations that often. Whenever i would fly Spit, i would be all like "it's so easy to fly, let's gooooo" and end up getting shot down.

What i'm trying to say is that it was very easy to fly, but not that easy to be good in it.

This carries over to the new simulator series for me to a certain extent, but i'm not making any concrete judgment until the FMs are finalized. With the new systems modelling and CEM, as well as the light armament, i now find it a welcome challenge in certain aspects.

Also, i think that when making comparisons we should be accurate about what we're comparing and if it even matters for the goal at hand.

Is it easy to fly? Sure is.

Can it be countered? Sure can, like any other plane, but this is a big discussion in and of itself, not an "end of discussion" statement.

Is it historically modeled? As with most planes in the sim, not yet.

Saying that it can be countered because a handful of 109 experten run rings around it doesn't hold much value for the average flier in the server. The same is true for saying "you can catch 109s easily in Hurricanes, that player does it all the time on the server".

It just proves it's doable, it doesn't prove it's easy, historically correct or independent of heavily situational parameters.

What i'm trying to say is, let's all take a deep breath and relax, not slag off each other's favorite ride and don't make arguments based on what a handful of virtual aces can do but the rest of us cannot.

Balance should be an issue of mission design after all, not a case of artificially boosting or neutering each aircraft. The aircraft should fly close to the real thing, the mission should create situations to mitigate their advantages if a certain server host wants to create a level playing field for their players.

Also, the FMs are not even final anyway

If it was up to me i would go for as accurate FMs as possible, accurate ammo loadouts (no 109s running with full minen shells and no Spits running full AP/De Wilde), dynamic online environment with a supply chain modeled via scripts and accurate amounts of aircraft at the start of such an online campaign, leaving only the planning and tactics to the players.

What that means is that the majority of RAF would fly Hurricanes, the luftwaffe would have more aircraft available, but the RAF would have a higher rate of replenishing losses in pilots (virtual lives) and aircraft.

From that point on, it would depend on what targets the players decided to bomb and what the opposition did in terms of CAP and interceptions. If blue players attacked the correct targets and used their fighters correctly, they would probably win, but if the red team bombed blue's aircraft on the ground then blue would have a hard time catching back up and maintaining the numerical advantage.

Otherwise, 1v1 comparisons between aircraft are only good for 1v1 scenarios or small furballs.

Read it,enjoyed every words in it, printed it and now I am still exerting myself in some kind of native american rain dancing around the print: Hu ha hu ha hu ha hoooo hu ha hu ha hu ha hooo

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

Read it,enjoyed every words in it, printed it and now I am still exerting myself in some kind of native american rain dancing around the print: Hu ha hu ha hu ha hoooo hu ha hu ha hu ha hooo

Wow. Just wow.

If the Spitfire is so simple and easy and uber, then it's probably just my imagination that I more often see them getting shot down than doing the shooting.

I think Blackdog is right on with it. It's easy to fly, but hard to fly well. So many real pilots have said that the Spitifre is a gorgeous airplane to fly and reacts almost effortlessly to your control inputs, doing everything you ask of it. Pushing it to its limits properly in combat situations with asymmetrcial aircraft is another matter.

The combat edges we're talking about here can EASILY be explained by the subtle differences in each pilot's individual behaviour, and if there IS something going on, it's not so big that a small tweak won't help.

That spitfire you dove on may have just come out of a dive himself and been carrying quite a bit of speed. Who knows.

I really don't think any more of these 'nerf the 109!' 'nerf the Spitfire!' threads are needed without some actual recorded game video proof. Or a recorded track.

[TomcatViP]

Wolv,

That flying too easy makes you too leasy is a well known fact in Sim.

The prob are not the sleepy pilots in their Uber Spits. I have always praised for an easy mount to be available on online server for the youngest or the new players that want to feel the experience of large dogfight scenario with humans players.

The annoying part of the Spit is when you are fighting hard with someone and your opponent still get the E advantage whatever all the calculations and Tac planning you made... I tell you, this is boring.

I know a particular funny Hurri flown by a player that can run away from my diving 109 after doing a hard turn in front of me. When you see such things, the only trigger you want to press is the shut down button on your PC.

We hve been patient over the years with the silly Spit. We hve been waiting years for this new Sim to surface. Now it's time to change the recipe. That they build an easy FM with another plane and they call it Super Lyslander, Mega Hind, Ultra Gloster, I don't care. But not with the Spit anymore.

[FFCW_Urizen]

If the Hurri outran you tomcat, than sorry mate, you simply didn´t fly your 109 to the full, sorry, you didn´t even fly her anywhere near decent. You made a mistake somewhere, and i can only guess that mistake, but u probably turned with that hurri, now, didn´t you.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by FFCW_Urizen

If the Hurri outran you tomcat, than sorry mate, you simply didn´t fly your 109 to the full, sorry, you didn´t even fly her anywhere near decent. You made a mistake somewhere, and i can only guess that mistake, but u probably turned with that hurri, now, didn´t you.

OMG are you seriously writing this ?

You shld mind the readers with a "Pretty boring argument ahead" sign

Oh and by the way you can outspiral nose up a "normal" hurri* at really slow speed what is pretty accurate with history (common evasive manoeuvre for 109 driver during the war).

*normal means regular FM

[FFCW_Urizen]

Don´t confuse outturning with outrolling, tomcat. the 109 had and still has the upper hand in terms of rollrate, climb and speed over the hurricane. If the Hurri outran you Tomcat and if i say that you made a mistake, than i am not doing so lightly. I´m only a decent 109 driver, but i have yet to encounter a hurri or spit that can outrun me in level flight, especially at alts below 6000m, period.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by FFCW_Urizen

Don´t confuse outturning with outrolling, tomcat. the 109 had and still has the upper hand in terms of rollrate, climb and speed over the hurricane. If the Hurri outran you Tomcat and if i say that you made a mistake, than i am not doing so lightly. I´m only a decent 109 driver, but i have yet to encounter a hurri or spit that can outrun me in level flight, especially at alts below 6000m, period.

C'mon guys, open your eyes. This specific Hurri does not play the same CoD as we are.

I fly the hurri as much as the 109. I know what I am talking abt. And thx for the professorial comment but I might not need that one

End of boring arguments. BOT pls

[SEE]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

OMG are you seriously writing this ?

You shld mind the readers with a "Pretty boring argument ahead" sign

Oh and by the way you can outspiral nose up a "normal" hurri* at really slow speed what is pretty accurate with history (common evasive manoeuvre for 109 driver during the war).

*normal means regular FM

Rotol Hurri was considered by many as the best Allied fighter available on most servers. So, given your principles regards easymounts, porked FM that favours the 'shameless' please tell us why you frequently selected the Rotol Hurri in MP?

Very odd, given your comments I would have expected you to stick to your principles and select a Tiger moth.......

[robtek]

Have we reached the personal attacks already?

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by SEE

Rotol Hurri was considered by many as the best Allied fighter available on most servers. So, given your principles regards easymounts, porked FM that favours the 'shameless' please tell us why you frequently selected the Rotol Hurri in MP?

Very odd, given your comments I would have expected you to stick to your principles and select a Tiger moth.......

Well regarding the Tiger, I did it on ATAG server ! Even had a "dogfight" with a 109 over the airfield (I was playing the bone part).

That brave gentleman did manage to score some non fatal hits at the end using despicable snorkling tactic.

Regarding the Hurri, only at alt > 4000m are the FM starting to look strange if you fly it honestlty (no WEP unless in critical situation etc...). Effectively at alt > 6000 it is superior than the 109. But man, I recall writing this very early ("climb to evade 109 if you hve time to reach that critical alt") and I was joked abt by many on this forum.

And again, there was "regular" hurri and self-standardized ones. Not to open a new debate.

But anyway, there is nothing in commun in the hurri and SPit's FM regarding "E-retention".
Again if you can't see that, blind you are. For example, I could hve writing this flying a spit with the stick fully pulled rearward and still haven't experienced some kind of departed flight