Whats with the Spit E retention?

[ATAG_Dutch]

If you get on ATAG's teamspeak3 server, there are lots of people who're only too happy to help advise on all of the issues you've been posting about.

The essences of the game on the ATAG server are teamwork and experience, and without either or both, unless you're a very experienced player/flyer, you're going to 'come a cropper' as the saying goes. That means you're not going to have a very enjoyable experience.

Any of the ATAG group and many others will be more than happy to help you have a good time on the server. You just have to get on teamspeak and fly.

So please come and join in, get involved, you'll find that we're quite a pleasant bunch of chaps. (Usually!)

[gimpy117]

Originally Posted by SEE

Mk. MrX and a many other 109 jockeys don't have much fear of the Spits - they seem to deal with them quite efficiently. I can only assume that they exploit the strengths of the 109 and the shortcomings of the Spit.

You might want to try the same approach rather than label players as being 'shameless' and making daft and innapropriate analogies! Sadly, we have read your anti Spit rhetoric to the point where it becomes rather tedious.

thats true, because they fight the spit completely on their terms, and thats what you should do. But im not just curious about the G.50, I thought it was supposed to be a TnB fighter...but it seems not to be the case

Originally Posted by ATAG_Dutch

If you get on ATAG's teamspeak3 server, there are lots of people who're only too happy to help advise on all of the issues you've been posting about.

The essences of the game on the ATAG server are teamwork and experience, and without either or both, unless you're a very experienced player/flyer, you're going to 'come a cropper' as the saying goes. That means you're not going to have a very enjoyable experience.

Any of the ATAG group and many others will be more than happy to help you have a good time on the server. You just have to get on teamspeak and fly.

So please come and join in, get involved, you'll find that we're quite a pleasant bunch of chaps. (Usually!)

I'm somewhat experienced flew a lot of RoF for a while, switched mostly to Il2 since it was new.

[fruitbat]

G.50 sucked. I don't even know why its in this game. It flew its first and pretty much only sortie on what most historians class as the very last day of BoB.

For this theatre, what a waste of time.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by gimpy117

I'm somewhat experienced flew a lot of RoF for a while, switched mostly to Il2 since it was new.

Well, I fly Rise of Flight too, and the aircraft are in no respects similar to fly.

The Bristol F2B is probably the most similar to a Cliffs of Dover aircraft, but of course it's a good deal slower!

But anyway, Cliffs of Dover is a fine combat flight sim. Sure we all have issues with the FMs, but I'd say it's in a far more subtle way than what you've been suggesting.

See this thread. Why not turn up?

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=32134

[Blackdog_kt]

In my case the Spit was always the plane i hated to fly against, was too easy to control and yet, because of this the temptation to fly foolish was too great, so i ended up doing worse in it than when flying other aircraft that require more discipline.

For example, a 190 needs disciplined flying just to fly, so i used that and as a result i wouldn't get into tight situations that often. Whenever i would fly Spit, i would be all like "it's so easy to fly, let's gooooo" and end up getting shot down.

What i'm trying to say is that it was very easy to fly, but not that easy to be good in it.

This carries over to the new simulator series for me to a certain extent, but i'm not making any concrete judgment until the FMs are finalized. With the new systems modelling and CEM, as well as the light armament, i now find it a welcome challenge in certain aspects.

Also, i think that when making comparisons we should be accurate about what we're comparing and if it even matters for the goal at hand.

Is it easy to fly? Sure is.

Can it be countered? Sure can, like any other plane, but this is a big discussion in and of itself, not an "end of discussion" statement.

Is it historically modeled? As with most planes in the sim, not yet.

Saying that it can be countered because a handful of 109 experten run rings around it doesn't hold much value for the average flier in the server. The same is true for saying "you can catch 109s easily in Hurricanes, that player does it all the time on the server".

It just proves it's doable, it doesn't prove it's easy, historically correct or independent of heavily situational parameters.

What i'm trying to say is, let's all take a deep breath and relax, not slag off each other's favorite ride and don't make arguments based on what a handful of virtual aces can do but the rest of us cannot.

Balance should be an issue of mission design after all, not a case of artificially boosting or neutering each aircraft. The aircraft should fly close to the real thing, the mission should create situations to mitigate their advantages if a certain server host wants to create a level playing field for their players.

Also, the FMs are not even final anyway

If it was up to me i would go for as accurate FMs as possible, accurate ammo loadouts (no 109s running with full minen shells and no Spits running full AP/De Wilde), dynamic online environment with a supply chain modeled via scripts and accurate amounts of aircraft at the start of such an online campaign, leaving only the planning and tactics to the players.

What that means is that the majority of RAF would fly Hurricanes, the luftwaffe would have more aircraft available, but the RAF would have a higher rate of replenishing losses in pilots (virtual lives) and aircraft.

From that point on, it would depend on what targets the players decided to bomb and what the opposition did in terms of CAP and interceptions. If blue players attacked the correct targets and used their fighters correctly, they would probably win, but if the red team bombed blue's aircraft on the ground then blue would have a hard time catching back up and maintaining the numerical advantage.

Otherwise, 1v1 comparisons between aircraft are only good for 1v1 scenarios or small furballs.

[drewpee]

I hope it's not to far into the future that we see improved damage and flight modeling. It's getting pretty frustrating on both side of the channel. I am continually getting into dog fights now with what should be a huge advantage. Getting good solid hits with mg and/or cannon. What follows is a prolonged struggle to keep advantage. Most of my fights now end when after a five minuet struggle a third ac entering to decide the outcome. Most often a ac stalls into the ground from too many evading maneuvers and not from damage.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

In my case the Spit was always the plane i hated to fly against, was too easy to control and yet, because of this the temptation to fly foolish was too great, so i ended up doing worse in it than when flying other aircraft that require more discipline.

For example, a 190 needs disciplined flying just to fly, so i used that and as a result i wouldn't get into tight situations that often. Whenever i would fly Spit, i would be all like "it's so easy to fly, let's gooooo" and end up getting shot down.

What i'm trying to say is that it was very easy to fly, but not that easy to be good in it.

This carries over to the new simulator series for me to a certain extent, but i'm not making any concrete judgment until the FMs are finalized. With the new systems modelling and CEM, as well as the light armament, i now find it a welcome challenge in certain aspects.

Also, i think that when making comparisons we should be accurate about what we're comparing and if it even matters for the goal at hand.

Is it easy to fly? Sure is.

Can it be countered? Sure can, like any other plane, but this is a big discussion in and of itself, not an "end of discussion" statement.

Is it historically modeled? As with most planes in the sim, not yet.

Saying that it can be countered because a handful of 109 experten run rings around it doesn't hold much value for the average flier in the server. The same is true for saying "you can catch 109s easily in Hurricanes, that player does it all the time on the server".

It just proves it's doable, it doesn't prove it's easy, historically correct or independent of heavily situational parameters.

What i'm trying to say is, let's all take a deep breath and relax, not slag off each other's favorite ride and don't make arguments based on what a handful of virtual aces can do but the rest of us cannot.

Balance should be an issue of mission design after all, not a case of artificially boosting or neutering each aircraft. The aircraft should fly close to the real thing, the mission should create situations to mitigate their advantages if a certain server host wants to create a level playing field for their players.

Also, the FMs are not even final anyway

If it was up to me i would go for as accurate FMs as possible, accurate ammo loadouts (no 109s running with full minen shells and no Spits running full AP/De Wilde), dynamic online environment with a supply chain modeled via scripts and accurate amounts of aircraft at the start of such an online campaign, leaving only the planning and tactics to the players.

What that means is that the majority of RAF would fly Hurricanes, the luftwaffe would have more aircraft available, but the RAF would have a higher rate of replenishing losses in pilots (virtual lives) and aircraft.

From that point on, it would depend on what targets the players decided to bomb and what the opposition did in terms of CAP and interceptions. If blue players attacked the correct targets and used their fighters correctly, they would probably win, but if the red team bombed blue's aircraft on the ground then blue would have a hard time catching back up and maintaining the numerical advantage.

Otherwise, 1v1 comparisons between aircraft are only good for 1v1 scenarios or small furballs.

Read it,enjoyed every words in it, printed it and now I am still exerting myself in some kind of native american rain dancing around the print: Hu ha hu ha hu ha hoooo hu ha hu ha hu ha hooo

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

Read it,enjoyed every words in it, printed it and now I am still exerting myself in some kind of native american rain dancing around the print: Hu ha hu ha hu ha hoooo hu ha hu ha hu ha hooo

Wow. Just wow.

If the Spitfire is so simple and easy and uber, then it's probably just my imagination that I more often see them getting shot down than doing the shooting.

I think Blackdog is right on with it. It's easy to fly, but hard to fly well. So many real pilots have said that the Spitifre is a gorgeous airplane to fly and reacts almost effortlessly to your control inputs, doing everything you ask of it. Pushing it to its limits properly in combat situations with asymmetrcial aircraft is another matter.

The combat edges we're talking about here can EASILY be explained by the subtle differences in each pilot's individual behaviour, and if there IS something going on, it's not so big that a small tweak won't help.

That spitfire you dove on may have just come out of a dive himself and been carrying quite a bit of speed. Who knows.

I really don't think any more of these 'nerf the 109!' 'nerf the Spitfire!' threads are needed without some actual recorded game video proof. Or a recorded track.

[TomcatViP]

Wolv,

That flying too easy makes you too leasy is a well known fact in Sim.

The prob are not the sleepy pilots in their Uber Spits. I have always praised for an easy mount to be available on online server for the youngest or the new players that want to feel the experience of large dogfight scenario with humans players.

The annoying part of the Spit is when you are fighting hard with someone and your opponent still get the E advantage whatever all the calculations and Tac planning you made... I tell you, this is boring.

I know a particular funny Hurri flown by a player that can run away from my diving 109 after doing a hard turn in front of me. When you see such things, the only trigger you want to press is the shut down button on your PC.

We hve been patient over the years with the silly Spit. We hve been waiting years for this new Sim to surface. Now it's time to change the recipe. That they build an easy FM with another plane and they call it Super Lyslander, Mega Hind, Ultra Gloster, I don't care. But not with the Spit anymore.

[FFCW_Urizen]

If the Hurri outran you tomcat, than sorry mate, you simply didn´t fly your 109 to the full, sorry, you didn´t even fly her anywhere near decent. You made a mistake somewhere, and i can only guess that mistake, but u probably turned with that hurri, now, didn´t you.