Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Good Stuff....

By July it shows ~8 Squadrons and I imagine some of those squadrons are operating Spitfire Mk II's.

August adds another 5 Squadrons and by sometime in September, a full 16 squadrons online as researched by Morgan and Shacklady.

According to the RAF estabilishment by September there were 33 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires.

I posted this list before:

By Month

No. 32 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 92 (East India) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 111 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940 H
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron pre BoB S

No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 3 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 17 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 19 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 54 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 74 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 73 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 85 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 229 Squadron May 1940 H

No. 43 (China-British) Squadron June 1940 H
No. 41 Squadron June 1940 S
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron June 1940 S

No. 145 Squadron July 1940 H

No. 64 Squadron 5 Aug 1940
No. 65 (East India) Squadron 12 Aug 1940 S
No. 234 (Madras Presidency) Squadron 18 Aug 1940 S
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron 31 Aug 1940 S
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron 15 Aug 1940 S

No. 66 Squadron 6 Sept 1940 S
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron 4 Sept 1940 S
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron 6 Sept 1940 H
No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron 9 Sept 1940 H

It is not complete, so if any one wants to add, please do. It was compiled using pilot reports and squadron logs easily found on the internet.

It is only for Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons. Not listed is other squadrons with Merlin powered a/c.

Here is a list of the squadrons for the BoB:

No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 3 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 17 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 19 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 23 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 25 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 29 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 32 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 41 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 43 (China-British) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 46 (Uganda) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 54 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 64 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 65 (East India) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 66 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 72 (Basutoland) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 73 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 74 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 85 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 92 (East India) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 111 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 141 Squadron - Boulton Paul Defiant
No. 145 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 151 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane and Boulton Paul Defiant
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 213 (Ceylon) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 219 (Mysore) Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 222 (Natal) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 229 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 232 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 234 (Madras Presidency) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 235 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 236 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 238 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 242 (Canadian) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 245 (Northern Rhodesia) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 247 (China - British) Squadron - Gloster Gladiator
No. 248 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 253 (Hyderabad) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 257 (Burma) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 263 (Fellowship of the Bellows) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 264 (Madras Presidency) Squadron - Boulton Paul Defiant
No. 266 (Rhodesia) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 302 Polish Fighter Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 310 Czechoslovak Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 312 Czechoslovak Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 401 Canadian Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 501 (County of Gloucester) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 504 (City of Nottingham) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 600 (City of London) Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 601 (County of London) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 604 (County of Middlesex) Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 605 (County of Warwick) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 607 (County of Durham) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 615 (County of Surrey) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 804 Naval Air Squadron - Fairey Fulmar
No. 808 Naval Air Squadron - Fairey Fulmar

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

I posted this list before:

By Month

No. 32 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 92 (East India) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 111 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940 H
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron pre BoB S

No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 3 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 17 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 19 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 54 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 74 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 73 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 85 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 229 Squadron May 1940 H

No. 43 (China-British) Squadron June 1940 H
No. 41 Squadron June 1940 S
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron June 1940 S

No. 145 Squadron July 1940 H

No. 64 Squadron 5 Aug 1940
No. 65 (East India) Squadron 12 Aug 1940 S
No. 234 (Madras Presidency) Squadron 18 Aug 1940 S
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron 31 Aug 1940 S
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron 15 Aug 1940 S

No. 66 Squadron 6 Sept 1940 S
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron 4 Sept 1940 S
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron 6 Sept 1940 H
No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron 9 Sept 1940 H

It is not complete, so if any one wants to add, please do. It was compiled using pilot reports and squadron logs easily found on the internet.

It is only for Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons. Not listed is other squadrons with Merlin powered a/c.

That makes 18 squadrons Feb-July another 6 in August...oops! that equals 24 in August plus another eight September = 32 squadrons. Why that's exactly twice as many squadrons than Morgan and Shacklady tssk tssk tssk.
Breakdown = 15 Spitfire, 17 Hurricane

Ah ha! + 1 Defiant Squadron:
264 Sqn Welsh 29May40.pdf

so-er-19 Squadrons Feb-July + 6 August + 8 September = 33 squadrons - 17 more than specified by the May '39 paper and repeated by Morgan and Shacklady and Crumpp.

[Al Schlageter]

Using the above list, these are the bases that required 100 octane fuel:

10 Group

Filton No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940
St Athan - training base

11 Group

Biggin Hill
No. 32 Squadron pre BoB H,
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron June 1940

Manston

Marlesham Heath
No. 85 Squadron May 1940 H

Hornchurch
No. 41 Squadron June 1940,
No. 65 (East India) Squadron 12 Aug 1940
No. 74 Squadron May 1940 S

Northholt
No. 43 (China-British) Squadron June 1940

Croydon
No. 111 Squadron pre BoB

Tangmere
No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron May 1940 H

Debden
No. 17 Squadron May 1940

North Weald
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron May 1940,
No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940

No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron May 1940 H

12 Group

Duxford
No. 19 Squadron May 1940

Digby
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron June 1940

Leconfield
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron 15 Aug 1940,
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron 6 Sept 1940

Church Fenton
No. 73 Squadron May 1940,
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron May 1940 H,
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron 15 Aug 1940

Wittering
No. 229 Squadron May 1940 H

13 Group

Drem
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron pre BoB

Turnhouse
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron 31 Aug 1940

Grangemounth

Acklington
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron 4 Sept 1940,

Catterick
No. 41 Squadron June 1940

The above is not complete so if any feel inclined to do so, update and repost.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Glider,

Why don't you state exactly what it is in your mind that you think I am claiming, first?

This is what I have said and is backed up by the facts:

In July of 1940, 100 Octane fuel was not the standard fuel of Fighter Command.

To support that you need to give some awnsers to the questions you have avoided for the following reasons

Personally I would like to see any evidence of :-
a) a shortage of fuel
If there was no shortage then there would be no need to reduce the roll out

b) of 16 squadrons
Which squadrons or if you go down the it was 16 squadrons at any one time

c) of which squadrons or bases
This brings the difficult questions
i) If 100 octane was in short supply when did Drew a small satellite station in Scotland have 100 octane when the priority stations in the South East didn't
ii) At one point in the BOB Duxford had the big wing of five squadrons. Are you really saying that almost a fifth of the RAF supply was in one 12 group station?.

d) why this isn't mentioned in any official document, book, history
Simple request, why in the most documented air battle in history has no one picked this important factor up. Support your theory with some supporting documentation, not an off the wall conspiracy theory

e) of the process in delivering the fuel
As there is no mention of a any limitation in the distribution of 100 octane fuel in the Oil Committee papers who distributed it

f) when the rest of FC were transfered to 100 octane
As (e) there is no mention of any further roll out of 100 Octane in the Oil Committee papers so when was it done?

[JtD]

I've been looking at a few individual Hurricane plane histories. It is interesting to see that there are planes that came from a unit which has been documented to use 100 octane fuel, and went to a unit where there's no dedicated record, on occasion after having been to a maintenance unit. Imho, there's no reason to assume that the new squadrons weren't using 100 octane fuel as well, unless RAF logistics were run by brain dead people. If some folks around here have detailed resources, it might be worth a little more digging.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by JtD

I've been looking at a few individual Hurricane plane histories. It is interesting to see that there are planes that came from a unit which has been documented to use 100 octane fuel, and went to a unit where there's no dedicated record, on occasion after having been to a maintenance unit. Imho, there's no reason to assume that the new squadrons weren't using 100 octane fuel as well, unless RAF logistics were run by brain dead people. If some folks around here have detailed resources, it might be worth a little more digging.

I did look at a number but not all of the squadron records of squadrons that formed after May 1940. I checked these records from formation until March (ish) 1941 and none of those records mention 100 octane, 87 octane or any issues. The assumption I was working on was that by March 1941 they would be using 100 octane in view of the instruction we have for all commands to use 100 Octane given in August 1940.
Given that, my view is that 100 Octane wasn't mentioned after May 1940 because it was standard issue.

[robtek]

Do you really believe that? Even after that a few post before it was posted that not all squadrons used 100 oct.???

[Seadog]

Originally Posted by robtek

Do you really believe that? Even after that a few post before it was posted that not all squadrons used 100 oct.???

Who posted that not all squadrons used 100 octane?

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by robtek

Do you really believe that? Even after that a few post before it was posted that not all squadrons used 100 oct.???

And you really believe a statement made without any evidence whatsoever? ah yes "absence of evidence" etc etc - which can mean anything you want it to mean, including no evidence means that (supply event that can be proven because there is no evidence) must have happened because there is no evidence that it didn't happen. Conspiracy theorists discussing the assassination of JFK have long relied on a lack of evidence to prove that there is a conspiracy.

Taking that further I can claim that the Apollo astronauts found that the moon is made of cheese but on the way home the astronauts got hungry and made toasted mooncheese sandwiches out of the samples they were bringing back - the report was quietly dumped in a file, and the samples replaced by rocks, which is why there is no evidence that the moon is made out of cheese.

So far no-one has explained what happened to 52,000 tons of 100 Octane avgas consumed between July - end October 1940. Crumpp had a stab at it by saying it wasn't really consumed, just mixed, then it disappeared into an unexplained administrative hole. Really?

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Good Stuff....

By July it shows ~8 Squadrons and I imagine some of those squadrons are operating Spitfire Mk II's.

August adds another 5 Squadrons and by sometime in September, a full 16 squadrons online as researched by Morgan and Shacklady.

According to the RAF estabilishment by September there were 33 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires.

Morgan and Shacklady's quoting of the pre-war meeting is just that. A quote from a pre war meeting. There are a few things mentioned in that meeting which simply didn't happen. Most obviously the projected consumption figure of 10,000 tons per annum. This must have changed between the meeting and the BoB. Records from the time show that there were 5,000 tons of 100 oct in France as part of the BEF. They only operated Hurricanes in France so why the need for the fuel?

The other obvious 'thing that changed' is the reserve figure of 800,000. If you read the Oil Position meeting notes that I posted you'll notice that this figure was projected for 1943.

Add into that the fact that nobody thought war was going to happen until at least 1941 when the M&S quote was written, and you begin to see how unreliable a document written in March '39 is when trying to use it as proof for something that happened 10 months later. So if the reserve figure and the consumption figure are incorrect, what makes you think that the 16 squadrons is correct?

Happily I've requested the full set of these meeting notes from the National Archive from '38 to '41. That should clear this 16 squadrons thing up. Then you can go back to the pilots notes.