Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[41Sqn_Banks]

There is a document (97 pages) available in the National Archives of Australia that deal with the supply of 100 octane fuel for the RAAF that covers 1940 and 1941.

Fortunately they are available online:
A705, 164/1/975 (searching for this reference number doesn't return a result, search for "Supply of Octane 100 aviation gasoline" will give you the result)
RAAF - Directorate of Supply - Supply of Octane 100 aviation gasoline
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/

You can also simply type "100 octane" in the search field, there are only 4 documents.

Maybe there can be found a evidence that

the Australian Government at that time was protesting vigoriously about the continued supply of lower grade 87 octane fuel when it too wanted 100 octane for the RAAF.

Or there might be evidences that this was not the case, for example if there was enough supply on 100 octane fuel available there was no need to protest.

So far I didn't read through all the pages.


Interesting find page 97:

14th August 1940.
...
Brief survey of the engines likely to be available for aircraft that may meet Australian requirements indicate that fuel of 90 and 95 octane rating is called for.
...
Even these engines likely to disappear from serious production early 1941 and some of the new engines will require 100 octane. Understand that Great Britain now using at least the appropriate octane fuel in all engines that can benefit thereby and has probably standardized on 100 octane fuel for engines of this class.
...

[NZtyphoon]

McFarland, Pugh, Hart, Perret, Lumsden and even Churchill have all quoted parts from the report.

Exactly where and in what context? A J P Taylor did an excellent biography of Beaverbrook, dealing extensively with his duties as Minister in charge of MAP, and using Beaverbrook's records and direct interviews with Beaverbrook. Nowhere is there any mention of Beaverbrook dealing with the Australians on a question of fuel supply and one would have thought that a biography of this nature would have at least mentioned something that was of such apparent importance that Churchill quoted from parts of it.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

There is a document (97 pages) available in the National Archives of Australia that deal with the supply of 100 octane fuel for the RAAF that covers 1940 and 1941.

Fortunately they are available online:
A705, 164/1/975
RAAF - Directorate of Supply - Supply of Octane 100 aviation gasoline
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/

You can also simply type "100 octane" in the search field, there are only 4 documents.

Maybe there can be found a evidence that
Or there might be evidences that this was not the case, for example if there was enough supply on 100 octane fuel available there was no need to protest.

So far I didn't read through all the pages.


Interesting find page 97:

An excellent Link many thanks.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Glider

An excellent Link many thanks.

Excellent? A small understatement:

Page 13 "Suggest therefore that Shell be asked to import the whole of 500,000 gallons at their own expense"

page 19 (30-1-41) "Only a small portion of this percentage of 100 Octane Spirit is yet to be delivered, but the balance is now on the water according to our latest advices from the SHELL Company."

page 55 (22-2-41) 2 "Meantime I have spoken to Captain Jones of the Shell Company and informed him that we require 100,000 gallons (or some substantial portion thereof) of Octane 100 to be ordered at once for delivery..." (Group Captain Department of Supply)

page 59 (19-2-41) Cable to Shell "It is a provision of the new contracts about to be entered into with your company and the Vacuum Oil Company....The Department of Air now desires...that 1,000,000 gallons of 100 octane base fuel be substituted in lieu thereof...(Deputy Director of Contracts to General Manager Shell)

page 60 (19-2-41) Similar cable to Vacuum Oil.

and lots more besides - bottom line Australian Government ordered supplies of 100 octane directly from oil companies Shell and Vacuum

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

Excellent? A small understatement:

Page 13 "Suggest therefore that Shell be asked to import the whole of 500,000 gallons at their own expense"

page 19 (30-1-41) "Only a small portion of this percentage of 100 Octane Spirit is yet to be delivered, but the balance is now on the water according to our latest advices from the SHELL Company."

page 55 (22-2-41) 2 "Meantime I have spoken to Captain Jones of the Shell Company and informed him that we require 100,000 gallons (or some substantial portion thereof) of Octane 100 to be ordered at once for delivery..." (Group Captain Department of Supply)

page 59 (19-2-41) Cable to Shell "It is a provision of the new contracts about to be entered into with your company and the Vacuum Oil Company....The Department of Air now desires...that 1,000,000 gallons of 100 octane base fuel be substituted in lieu thereof...(Deputy Director of Contracts to General Manager Shell)

page 60 (19-2-41) Similar cable to Vacuum Oil.

page 69 (31-10-40) "Shell now propose to import 100 Octane Base Spirit in lieu of 100 Octane spirit already mixed."

and lots more besides - bottom line Australian Government ordered supplies of 100 octane directly from oil companies Shell and Vacuum

Oh Yeah it's a great document. And thx for that. But what is buzzing me as hell is why are you so one sided in your citation.

In the doc they said that as of Jan/feb 41, no op plane needs 100Oct fuel.
They are also concerned abt what kind of fuel shld be used in the engines of the US planes they ordered (some seems to be outsourced from some French former order) as the Octane quality seemed higher than what they were presently using.

In all their discussion I hve read so far the 100oct fuel is to be mixed with lower grade (old stocks such as basic 73 octane fuel)and additive (TEL) to obtain grade of 95, 90 and 87 octane according to the types of eng in OP use.

They even estimate the quantity of needed 100 oct to be blended in to 95 octane fuel for their operational fighter(US fighters?). In no way they are mentionning any type requiring 100 oct fuel. (14.2.1941 - entry nbr sixty-eight - see bellow - extracted from http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/)

The price of 1 gallon of 100 oct fuel is fixed at 18 cents from Vacuum (company name). It wld be intersting to know what was the price for other grade (87 mainly)

Regarding the Brit situation it is interesting to note that if in August 40 they envisoned a large use of 100 octane, in the latest document (see attached files) even in feb 1941 they still hve no direct use of that grade in their fighters

Pls that time don't wall text or insult me. Thx in advance.

[41Sqn_Banks]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

Regarding the Brit situation it is interesting to note that if in August 40 they envisoned a large use of 100 octane, in the latest document (see attached files) even in feb 1941 they still hve no direct use of that grade in their fighters

Keep in mind which aircraft types were operated by the RAAF in Australia in 1941. Was there even any fighter available? I mean they even didn't receive Brewsters or P-40s before 1942.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

Keep in mind which aircraft types were operated by the RAAF in Australia in 1941. Was there even any fighter available? I mean they even didn't receive Brewsters or P-40s before 1942.

Ok fair enough for the fighters. But with so many RAAF personnel flying Hurries and SPits in ENgland, any 100 oct probable requirement would hve been listed.

What import most in the doc is that 100 OCT was a safety measure to prevent any lack of required grade fuel during the forseen switch in engine fuel with increased "technologies" (and even more lowered safety level )

I pointed out (or I shld hve - lol ) a paper listing the composition of all grade of blended fuel (11.5% for 87 for exemple).

This shld be put in perspective with the average quantities of 100 oct consumption in england (the Kurves Kurfust traced).


ANd plse for the sake of the reader don't over quote each other with hundreds of lines of citations only to add a single sentence.

Over 400 post in this thread and I am sure that less than 20% are original meanings

[TomcatViP]

s

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

Ok fair enough for the fighters. But with so many RAAF personnel flying Hurries and SPits in ENgland, any 100 oct probable requirement would hve been listed.

What import most in the doc is that 100 OCT was a safety measure to prevent any lack of required grade fuel during the forseen switch in engine fuel with increased "technologies" (and even more lowered safety level )

I pointed out (or I shld hve - lol ) a paper listing the composition of all grade of blended fuel (11.5% for 87 for exemple).

This shld be put in perspective with the average quantities of 100 oct consumption in england (the Kurves Kurfust traced).


ANd plse for the sake of the reader don't over quote each other with hundreds of lines of citations only to add a single sentence.

Just like that

[41Sqn_Banks]

From what I've read so far in 1941 Australia received their 100 octane fuel directly from Shell and Vacuum Oil Company.

In fact they didn't need 100 octane fuel in 1941 as they didn't have any aircraft that required it. What they actually needed was 90 octane fuel for their Catalina flying boats.

It was possible to blend 90 octane fuel from 73 octane base fuel by slightly violating the specifications in case of emergency. However they decided to mix it locally from 100 octane and 87 octane fuel.

Ironically on 21 February 1941 (page 61) where the Australian Government is supposed to protest against the continuous supply of 87 fuel:

It must be understood that approximately 115,000 gallons of 100 Octane Base Spirit is already in order, and delivery anticipated within the next few days.

Page 47-53 gives stock in Feb/March 1941 and approx. consumption of 90 and 100 octane for 1941.

Page 44 gives expected amount of 100 octane for June 1941

Which were in fact delieverd, see Page 41:

As you are aware, wer are now unloading 347,000 gallons of the 100 Octane base product, ...

To come back to the previous theory:

The reason why it is included amongst AWM papers is because the Australian Government at that time was protesting vigoriously about the continued supply of lower grade 87 octane fuel when it too wanted 100 octane for the RAAF.

1. Supply of 100 octane fuel to Australia was received directly from Shell and Vacuum Oil Company without the involvement of any other Government.
2. They did in fact receive the amount of 100 octane fuel they have ordered.
3. The RAAF only "wanted" to employ 90 octane fuel where the engine required it.

[lane]

Originally Posted by 41Sqn_Banks

There is a document (97 pages) available in the National Archives of Australia that deal with the supply of 100 octane fuel for the RAAF that covers 1940 and 1941.

Fortunately they are available online:
A705, 164/1/975 (searching for this reference number doesn't return a result, search for "Supply of Octane 100 aviation gasoline" will give you the result)
RAAF - Directorate of Supply - Supply of Octane 100 aviation gasoline
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/

You can also simply type "100 octane" in the search field, there are only 4 documents.

Maybe there can be found a evidence that
Or there might be evidences that this was not the case, for example if there was enough supply on 100 octane fuel available there was no need to protest.

So far I didn't read through all the pages.

Interesting find page 97:

Nice find 41Sqn_Banks, thanks for sharing! Good job summarizing the material in your post 407.