The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by kendo65

I would say the Russians could be on a similar level to the UK, and for similar reasons - finishing as victors.

All the other European countries have painful memories of defeat and occupation. Best forgotten.

I don't think it's advisable to compare GB to Russia, the scales are VERY hard to match there..

For the victors (in any conflict...?) there is more of a tendency to view it as a nation-defining achievement (though how long a country should keep clinging to its past glories is a valid question to raise)

yep, how long? Is it because ww2 was probably the first well documented conflict of history and is still so vivid in our memories, and many vets are still around?

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by kendo65

I've got a few niggles with 'half-hearted attempt', but overall a fair and balanced appraisal.

Sternjaeger if you are willing to agree with this bit now:

"The UK can call this a German defeat because it didn't meet the stated aims (conquering Britain)"

then why all the arguing and defensiveness in the last 40-odd pages?! (edit: 50-odd pages. Cant keep track of this thread )

I thought that by now we agreed that the attempt was half-hearted?

As for the agreeing, the fact that the UK can call something a victory doesn't mean that it actually was one. So as much as I do understand why in Britain it's perceived as a victory, doesn't change the facts of the conflict.

[blackmme]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I thought that by now we agreed that the attempt was half-hearted?

As for the agreeing, the fact that the UK can call something a victory doesn't mean that it actually was one. So as much as I do understand why in Britain it's perceived as a victory, doesn't change the facts of the conflict.

I think we are absolutely back at square one. No positions have changed. We should all stop going around in circles and let people read the thread and propose their own points and arguments from here on in....

Regards Mike

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by blackmme

I think we are absolutely back at square one. No positions have changed. We should all stop going around in circles and let people read the thread and propose their own points and arguments from here on in....

Regards Mike

how about some tea and biscuits while we're at it?

[JimmyBlonde]

The facts of the conflict are that no further attempts were made to invade Britain.

Whether the initial attempt was half-hearted is irrelevant, the outcome ensured that Nazi Germany ran out of time and resources to accomplish its aims due to their preoccupation with more important campaigns.

Had the Luftwaffe swept aside the RAF as intended, and as they probably could have done, that would have been a defeat for Britain whether the invasion was a success or not. There's no middle ground, a costly victory is still a victory even though it might lead to disaster further down the track which, in this case, it didn't.

Would you say that the Channel Dash was a German victory? They got their ships through the channel at a high price but, after the Channel Dash, those ships contributed practically nothing to the war effort. They basically drained resources from other areas and were eventually destroyed.

But they got through the channel.

The RAF clearly contributed greatly to the war after BoB so that compounds the miracle of their survival and, to my mind, adds weight to the argument that BoB was a defeat for the Germans and a victory for the British.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

When people suggest our Victory celebrations should be regarded as offensive to Germans it's easy to assume that said Germans forget what was really being fought against, so if the Germans feel so hard done by do they feel their war was just? the 'British' attitudes in regards to celebrating achievements in WWII seem no different to the celebrations of the USA's equivalents.....they just don't seem to be faced with the same criticism.

That is your problem. Nobody ever said your victory celebrations are an offense to anybody. That was entirely your interpretation. What was said is that your victory celebrations are blinding you to an objective perspective. Once again you spin this into some kind of attack. With other words, you warp others arguments into an attack, for whatever reasons.

so with that in mind, could you explain to me why every time a Brit celebrates surviving a conflict and coming out on top (with help....nobody denies it), fighting against a widely aknowleged force for evil, we just get labeled as Nationalist idiots with an 'empire mentality'

No, can't explain that, because nobody did that but yourself. So you may want to ask yourself why you feel offended all the time. Now if you can't take what people say the way it is you should not wonder if those people go nuts eventually. And don't come up with Kongo Otto again, I am not him, neither is Stern, nor anybody else.

With all due respect how is that achieveable without resorting to techniques that they were infamous for, we fought a war for democracy and freedom of speech, even if that means you choose to be a Nazi. can you explain to me what constitutes the condition for cultivating a Nazi (appart from letting the French humiliate them)

The techniques used by the Nazis were neither new nor have not been employed later on by other nations. In fact, those means are still very much alive and kicking these days. Just look at the US and how Bush manipulated to the public into marching into Iraq. Or the picture Islam has taken in western society. Or more and more surveillance by governments to look after their citizens. Despite decades of Nazi docmentaries and debates the same things are happening right in front of our eyes with nobody caring a bit about it. So please do not tell me that using the Nazis had done naything so far to prevent developments the Nazis were famous for.

And finally, there we have this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ0mdxXw8Ac

which is just the absolute climax of anglo saxon nations dealing with the Nazis. Its nuts.

[nearmiss]

There is no doubt that the soldiers and aviators on both sides were fighting for their lives. When the fight is to the death it is never a half hearted anything. Both sides were giving up their lives every day, and you can be assured there was no half hearted effort in the cockpits of either Germany or Britain.

Goering may have been a putz, but the Luftwaffe was not.

Sadly, the German and British soldiers died because they were just in the way. Seems like it, when you realize ole Hitler just changed the war front, and effectively wasted all those people and resources in the Battle of Britain.

Thousands of people died, military and civilian and the jerk just diverted to the other side of Europe. Taking Britain was just a half effort to Hitler, and if that jerk had to fight his way out of a paper sack (personally) he couldn't have done zip. THe little coward proved it up well when he committed suicide, rather than face any kind of punishment for his debauchery.

I say Britain was the winner, because all the power of Luftwaffe was directed towards Britain and the losses were greater militarily for Germany than Britain. The Germans were getting the snot kicked out of them on a daily basis, and it didn't seem to matter how many planes they had in the air they lost huge lots of them on every raid.

Hitler thought defeating Britain would be easy. Figuratively speaking, Hitler got his hand in the mouth of a bear.

History has it's facts and distortions, which is what future generations will share.

Another 15 years and there will probably not be a single survivor left alive on either side that fought in WW2 to corroborate anything.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

Hmm... I'm sure you don't mean by daft methods like banning the swastika from plastic models and computer games, but I'm interested in how this would be achieved socially and politically without compromising democracy.

When your car's fixed that is. I'm still waiting for my new graphics card. Yesterday the driver of a reputable courier service couldn't find the address. That'll teach me to pay the extra £6.00 for next day delivery. I'm such a stingebag.

Actually, no, I do not mean by that. In my opinion you can only beat the NAzis if you can beat them in open discourse, and all what a ban achieves is making them go into hiding and creating a dormant mood that can grow in peace because nobody can challenge it for lack of recongition.

No, what you need to learn is how prejudices develop, why certain gropus of people get villified. That once you start talking about "them" and "us", you already laid the foundations the Nazis can build upon. That taking away peopls dignity can result in very violent backslashes. That all people need free access to information because if they do not, then that means individuals can manipulate public opinion. Rupert Murdoch anybody?

The list goes on. It is not about the great and open mechanics that made the Nazis famous, it is about the small subtle, hardly recongizable changes in a publics mood that can result in sudden outbursts if not adressed early and can be exploited by populists. If something like the Nazis happens again, it won't be under the Nazi corporate identity, that is a given.

Actually I think all the talk about the Anzis does not serve to prevent them from comign up again, but gives them so much credit and presence that ppl will be rather hot to repeat their feats. It's by now probably the most (in)famous movement on this planet and constantly upheld everywhere. In all honesty, those gangsters could not have wished for more free air time.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

...what you need to learn is how prejudices develop, why certain groups of people get villified.

Thanks mate, always nice to get someone else's take on these things.

I was joking about the swastikas of course.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

Thanks mate, always nice to get someone else's take on these things.

I was joking about the swastikas of course.

you sure were ; )