The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

[bongodriver]

It got me thinking some time ago: out of all the European countries, Great Britain is the only one with SO much celebration about WW2, and for a buff like me and you it surely is paradise, but have you ever wondered why it doesn't happen as much in the rest of Europe?

Not being funny or anything and with no disrespect to the rest of europe....it's probably to do with the fact we remained the only european country that had anything to celebrate.......is that not obvious?

[bongodriver]

The example made in the article about Fawlty Towers "don't mention the war" (or Blackadder for the matter) skit is another example of how you have used "the war" for everything: celebration, drama, comedy, sport etc..

So we can laugh at ourselves.....now I'm confused, are you saying having a sense of humour and being able to laught at our own faults is offensive, Basil Faulty is portrayed as a bufoon, Blackadder is a subject of pure comedy, and the whole series was taking the mick out of all those bad things you are highlighting.

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Personal opinion on the matter:

Germany couldn't win, some people high up knew it and some were delusional and thought they would. (go back a few pages and read the account of that military exercise).

Overall, they made a half-hearted attempt to force the UK to sue for peace and "close" down one front before starting the second one in the East. It didn't work, they moved on.

The UK couldn't take the fight back to the Germans either for quite some time and when it tried to, it got appalling results (cross-channel raids all the way until the Dieppe fiasco).

Long story short, given the benefit of hindsight and looking at the big picture, things were on a stalemate ever since Dunkirk and until 1942 at least and even then, the turning of the tides occurred mostly in the East (Stalingrad, N.Africa and the Pacific front).

The UK can call this a German defeat because it didn't meet the stated aims (conquering Britain), the other side can call it an effort doomed from the start and they would both be correct.

My personal belief is that most of the sane people in the German high command were looking to force Britain out of the war to secure their flanks before Barbarrossa, the conquering talk was mostly intimidating bravado and propaganda. The British didn't know it at the time so they acted like it was true (better safe than sorry after all) and that's why this registers as a victory to them. The Germans were divided between those who believed their own tale and thus considered it a defeat, and those who viewed it as a side-show from the start and didn't. I think all three opinions are valid for people who were engaged in the battle in whatever capacity.
es persist though.

I've got a few niggles with 'half-hearted attempt', but overall a fair and balanced appraisal.

Sternjaeger if you are willing to agree with this bit now:

"The UK can call this a German defeat because it didn't meet the stated aims (conquering Britain)"

then why all the arguing and defensiveness in the last 40-odd pages?! (edit: 50-odd pages. Cant keep track of this thread )

[csThor]

Humor is always good, being able to laugh about oneself is even better.

From a German's perspective, however, it seems to be some kind of "popular culture" to constantly harp on about "the war". It's everywhere, in football, in the yellow press, in some of these mindless chants ... To me it does leave the impression that Great Britain is nowadays nothing more than a little poor island full of sad people who have nothing to be happy about and so they bring up times long gone whenever appropriate and especially when not.

And as for the British Empire I am absolutely convinced the only reason the colonies were given independence after WW2 is that GB no longer could afford the costs (political, military and especially financially) to keep them occupied and to suppress the local drive for independence. Otherwise GB might have found itself in the same position as France with the nasty wars in Indochina and Algeria.

[kendo65]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

...
It got me thinking some time ago: out of all the European countries, Great Britain is the only one with SO much celebration about WW2, and for a buff like me and you it surely is paradise, but have you ever wondered why it doesn't happen as much in the rest of Europe?

I would say the Russians could be on a similar level to the UK, and for similar reasons - finishing as victors.

All the other European countries have painful memories of defeat and occupation. Best forgotten.

For the victors (in any conflict...?) there is more of a tendency to view it as a nation-defining achievement (though how long a country should keep clinging to its past glories is a valid question to raise)

[bongodriver]

From a German's perspective, however, it seems to be some kind of "popular culture" to constantly harp on about "the war". It's everywhere, in football, in the yellow press, in some of these mindless chants ... To me it does leave the impression that Great Britain is nowadays nothing more than a little poor island full of sad people who have nothing to be happy about and so they bring up times long gone whenever appropriate and especially when not.

All I ask is that people don't generalise and use these examples as what Britain is all about, I fail to see the difference in that and what the British are accused of.

And as for the British Empire I am absolutely convinced the only reason the colonies were given independence after WW2 is that GB no longer could afford the costs (political, military and especially financially) to keep them occupied and to suppress the local drive for independence. Otherwise GB might have found itself in the same position as France with the nasty wars in Indochina and Algeria.

Quite....but what about the ones who havent become independent? what is the massive gun we are holding to their heads?

[bongodriver]

For the victors (in any conflict...?) there is more of a tendency to view it as a nation-defining achievement (though how long a country should keep clinging to its past glories is a valid question to raise)

Why?......not really going to make any difference other than history being forgotten........whats that saying again?

[kendo65]

True. I'm all for remembering and marking the sacrifices and achievements of those years.

But maybe a nation (especially one with such a grand, imperial past as GB) can define itself too much by its past achievements. Reliving the past can maybe become an unhealthy attempt to avoid difficult choices in the present (?) (aircraft carriers with no aircraft, clinging onto the nuclear club, our continued addiction to 'punching above our weight' in various foreign conflicts under the last two governments.)

That last paragraph is more throwing a question in the air than saying i necessarily subscribe to that position.

I also don't think that most Brits (with the possible exception of Daily Telegraph readers ) have that strong identification with Empire and glory that some of the posters in this thread seem to believe.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

All I ask is that people don't generalise and use these examples as what Britain is all about, I fail to see the difference in that and what the British are accused of.

Nobody is accusing the British of anything here, but a certain popular behaviour should be firmly condemned, not giggled upon or dismissed, not only because it's out of place, but because it embarrasses the British that don't think in that way. Same goes with humour: with SO many themes to joke upon, why the war one is SO recurrent!?

Quite....but what about the ones who havent become independent? what is the massive gun we are holding to their heads?

I'm not gonna go on this one, too off topic.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by bongodriver

Thats generalizing mate, have I chanted that? has anyone on this thread chanted that? have I suggested that chant is something to be proud of? have you any evidence that it is the wider view of the British public?........no

well maybe you haven't chanted it here, but you can say you NEVER chanted it, or giggled when you heard it? Come on..

Proof of ignorance, that is exactly what it was, a victory for our fight to survive....so we honour the people that made the ultimate saccrifce for it, where the hell does a football match come in to it?

that's exactly my question..